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ComputerGeek25
Guest
I would mention that it is hard not to be cynical when you hear terms such as “welfare queens” and hear stories of fraud and abuse.
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I would mention that it is hard not to be cynical when you hear terms such as “welfare queens” and hear stories of fraud and abuse.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
You can focus on whatever anecdotes are the most comforting to your position.
I would mention that it is hard not to be cynical when you hear terms such as “welfare queens” and hear stories of fraud and abuse.
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ComputerGeek25
Guest
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sedonaman
Guest
Yes. obama said he could pay for his health care bill by eliminating fraud, waste, and abuse. He doesn’t need a new law to do that; he is in charge of the law enforcement branch of government, and it’s been over two years, so why hasn’t he even started? Because he wasn’t interested in doing anything, otherwise by now he could have proven it by showing at least some savings.
I would mention that it is hard not to be cynical when you hear terms such as “welfare queens” and hear stories of fraud and abuse.
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sedonaman
Guest
How about using your own actual experience? I have posted this before, but it bears a repeat.
Let me illustrate how your government works and why its involvement in health care would be a colossal waste of resources, as it is in every endeavor.
Suppose I am in charge of a medical imaging lab under obamacare. The government bureaucrat in charge of funding medical imaging labs will ask me sometime in March of every year how many MRIs I plan to do the next fiscal year [FY]. Since I anticipate doing, say, 100 this year, I tell him 110 next year to allow for growth in the demographics. He beats me down to 104 because he thinks I’ve inflated the number. So next FY, I get funded for 104 MRIs, 26 per quarter *. Fast forward to the last quarter, and I note that I have done only 60 MRIs so far that FY. Based on that rate, I estimate only 80 total by FY end. I will be in a bind if I do less than 104 by FY end because it will affect the number I get funded for the FY after that, AND the Washington bureaucrat will accuse me of having lied to him. What do I do? Answer: call up all the doctors I know and tell them to send me more business … IOW, no matter what the patient’s problem, order a MRI until further notice. Meanwhile, another MRI lab across the country is in a bind because they are going to run out of MRI funding before FY end. I don’t dare ask my excess funding to be transferred to the other because my fate will be the same next year as if I did nothing: reduced funding. So, we have a situation where one is going without while another is wasting resources. The government will have compounded the shortage problem.
This scenario is not so far-fetched because it is what our government does every year in other areas. Self-preservation being part of human nature, it is the way it thinks.
Some here have said to put everyone on Medicare. Medicare is rife with fraud, waste, and abuse [FWA]. How do we know? obama has told us that he can pay for his plan by eliminating FWA. If there is that much money to be saved, Medicare FWA must be a cornucopia of FWA. obama doesn’t need any more laws to eliminate or even reduce FWA, so why hasn’t he? It has been at least two years since he made this claim. Have you heard him talk of any progress? Of course not, because there has been none. In short, he is not interested in an efficient use of scarce resources.
It has been said that if the government was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in two years. A similar fate awaits health care under government management. If someone thinks otherwise, I challenge him to show me one of its socialist programs that has worked and is not in financial trouble.
obamacare is not a Christian act because it violates the Catholic teaching of subsidiarity.*
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BobCatholic
Guest
Uh, no.
For those who cannot afford health care already, we have Catholic hospitals who provide it for those who have no insurance - and they do provide charity care.
So your comment about “locking them out” Is flat out wrong.
When the government can force you to buy health insurance, they can force you to do other things.
That, sir, is Totalitarianism.
Are you glad to support THAT? Looks like it!
And Obamacare is not pro-life, it takes away religious liberty from Catholic institutions and requires everyone to pay for abortions.
Are you glad you support the blood of innocents on your hands?
I suspect this was copied and pasted from somewhere. Why would someone hate it when someone has money and doesn’t want it forcefully removed by government? Envy is one of the SEVEN DEADLY SINS!
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Andromedus
Guest
Why complain now? The state always force people to do stuff, thats almost at the core of what a state/government is. You don’t have to like ‘‘obamacare’’ but comparing it to Nazi-Germany or the Soviet union at its worst is a bit insulting to the ones killed in Gulag etc. You might be right about ‘‘Obamacare’’ not being pro-life though
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BobCatholic
Guest
So you’re saying one should never complain?
I guess that first amendment doesn’t exist…
Comparing Obamacare to Nazi Germany or Soviet Union at its worst is like comparing first grade to PhD level studies.You don’t have to like ‘‘obamacare’’ but comparing it to Nazi-Germany or the Soviet union at its worst is a bit insulting to the ones killed in Gulag etc. You might be right about ‘‘Obamacare’’ not being pro-life though
But remember, slippery slopes NEVAH happen. History never repeats itself. Governments never graduate from first to second grade to high school to Bachelor’s degree to PhD. It never happens!
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sedonaman
Guest
I think your last sentence countered your own statement just prior to it. From the point of view of those aborted, ‘Obamacare’’ is Nazi-Germany or the Soviet Union.Why complain now? The state always force people to do stuff, thats almost at the core of what a state/government is. You don’t have to like ‘‘obamacare’’ but comparing it to Nazi-Germany or the Soviet union at its worst is a bit insulting to the ones killed in Gulag etc. You might be right about ‘‘Obamacare’’ not being pro-life though
While it’s true that, “The state always force people to do stuff…”, but I think there is a degree factor. There’s a big difference between ordering you to do forced labor in a gulag in Siberia for being a political dissident and making you pay a fine for exceeding the speed limit.
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Andromedus
Guest
Of course you can and should complain! I just meant that the next step of this health insurance issue is not an American Soviet Union.
Perhaps it is because English is not my mother tongue but are you saying that with Obamacare the Soviet Union would have been a better place to live in than the US with Obamacare?But remember, slippery slopes NEVAH happen. History never repeats itself. Governments never graduate from first to second grade to high school to Bachelor’s degree to PhD. It never happens!
Yes I agree that from the aborted ones point of view it is the same but a totalitarian state controls every aspect of your life and society which I doubt will happen in the USA and especially since abortion already was legal at some places the situation regarding abortion is not going from good to bad but from bad to worse, right?
Yes of course there is a degree factor and that is in a way what I meant. BobCatholic said ‘‘When the government can force you to buy health insurance, they can force you to do other things.’’ and ‘‘That, sir, is Totalitarianism.’’ But I personally think there is a large gap between the health insurance issue to gulag and therefore also to totalitarianism. Because of that I fail to understand the mention of totalitarianism now just because the government can force you to do some other things after this, I mean if you think like that isn’t the creation of the United States of America itself a step closer to totalitarianism? To me if we compare this to Alcoholism it is like saying that you will become an alcoholic because you drink orange juice which means you might drink something else another time, like vodka. But then drinking water is also a step closer of being an alcoholic right?
Okay this might have been a weird way of explaining what I meant but I hope you understand.
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sedonaman
Guest
A totalitarian state not only controls every aspect of your life, it decides whether you get to live at all. When George Washington left office, one of the things he was most proud of was that the federal government had virtually no contact with the average person. There was a time not that long ago when the idea of homosexual marriage would have been laughed right out of town, so we can’t say “_____________” [fill in] won’t happen.
Perhaps he was using a little of the hyperbole to make his point, which was, if the government can force you to buy something and justify it with the Commerce Clause, just what can’t our government do under our system of limited government? Are there really any limits at all?
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Andromedus
Guest
I disagree, or rather, yes they (totalitarian states) think they can decide whether you should live or not but I don’t consider all states who think they can decide such things as totalitarian. A state with death penalty is by that definition a totalitarian state and even if I am against the death penalty I don’t consider states or countries who practice it necessarily totalitarian. Bad perhaps but not totalitarian.
Yes he might have, but to claim that your opponents opinions are totalitarian or leads to totalitarianism should be avoided.
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sedonaman
Guest
In our system, the death penalty is decided by a jury of the accused’s peers, not the government.
Haven’t you been listening to the opposition? Also, consider the following political fact of life:
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ComputerGeek25
Guest
And you’re given representation if you can’t afford it as well as the scope of what you can be executed for is limited. Lastly, how many appeals does the prosecution/state have to go through before someone is executed? In theory, it sounds like a good system.
I don’t think the Jews or even the children being aborted in the womb had such luxury.
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Andromedus
Guest
Yes but still I think that my point remains, you could also discuss whether a jury actually should decide a thing like that but that is another topic.
Depends on what you mean with opposition. The people for obamacare on this forum or elsewhere ‘‘in real life’’? But I suppose your point is that they are not always ‘‘nice’’ (or whatever word you want to use) either which is probably true.
I know, it is sadly true. Stupid humans…
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sedonaman
Guest
They aren’t stupid; they are being rational.
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Swiss_Guy
Guest
That may be so, and our healthcare system may have a bunch of issues. But tens of thousands is nothing compared to the one million children that die from abortions each year. That rate would only go up with Obamacare and planb drugs. Not to mention the Catholic Church would have to shut down most hospitals.
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mitex
Guest
If it didn’t have the contraception mandate I’d support Obamacare…
There’s already an executive order banning abortion. I think we need to codify that into law along with a contraception ban but once that is done everyone should get behind the law…
Why I’d even nationalize the insurance companies and create a universal healthcare system. Why I’d have it designed by the Bishops themselves (which offered to do in 2009).
There’s already an executive order banning abortion. I think we need to codify that into law along with a contraception ban but once that is done everyone should get behind the law…
Why I’d even nationalize the insurance companies and create a universal healthcare system. Why I’d have it designed by the Bishops themselves (which offered to do in 2009).
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Ender
Guest
And while I disagree with pretty much everything you say here everyone should at a minimum recognize that neither your position nor mine is more Christian than the other. What a Christian position requires is that we do what we think is best for all involved and while I may believe your solution would be catastrophic it is not immoral to be wrong. It is reasonable to argue that Obamacare will or won’t work but it is meaningless to argue that supporting or opposing it is either a moral or an immoral act.
Ender
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ACCT
Guest
I have an idea why it’s so important to the Obama administration to insist on free distribution of contraception pills, and why Democratic Party operatives such as Hilary Rosen belittle stay-at-home moms.
As Democrats’ vision of society evolves, private decisions are replaced by government mandates; family intimacy and dignity are replaced by the authority of the government involvement; confident and unique individuals required to create independent and productive families are disappearing.
As Democrats’ vision of society evolves, private decisions are replaced by government mandates; family intimacy and dignity are replaced by the authority of the government involvement; confident and unique individuals required to create independent and productive families are disappearing.
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