Afro-Centric Mass

[Teakafrog]

I could be wrong about this. In St. Louis (no doubt other places) there is a largely African-American parish at which Masses are perfectly orthodox, but at which the liturgical “extras” are all reminiscent of Deep South Black Protestant stuff. Incredibly beautiful, rhythmic, harmonic, well-rehearsed, haunting hymns; knockout choir robes (and stupefyingly ornate hats on the ladies in the congregation) and a rousing, deeply challenging sermon by an Afro-American.priest. Shouts of “amen” at particularly moving points. Kids dressed up to the nines. All very emotional, joyous yet reverent, worshipful and, well, just neat! Maybe this is what your Afro-Centric Mass will be. For your sake, I hope it is. I’m not black, and I’m as ultramontane as they come, but I think it’s neat!

This is what it was like at our local African American parish too. Very reverent and respectful, but WOW was the music good! We have an AA adopted daughter, and we went there occasionally instead of our regular parish. I miss it now that we’ve moved to the boonies. We may have to make the drive into ‘the city’ one of these weekends to check out what they have there.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Pax vobiscum!

I think they should look at how Cardinal Arinze celebrates Mass and do it like that. And be sure to talk about St. Augustine.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[LilyM]

Pax vobiscum!

I think they should look at how Cardinal Arinze celebrates Mass and do it like that. And be sure to talk about St. Augustine.

In Christ,
Rand

And St Moses the Black of course

Not to mention St Charles Lwanga, Blessed (I think) Cyprian Tansi, and I’m sure there are others that could be dug up. Wonder how many of 'em used kinte cloth, cowrie shells and ANC flags??

Is there really a Zaire Use?? That would be a new one to me.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

I could be wrong about this. In St. Louis (no doubt other places) there is a largely African-American parish at which Masses are perfectly orthodox, but at which the liturgical “extras” are all reminiscent of Deep South Black Protestant stuff. Incredibly beautiful, rhythmic, harmonic, well-rehearsed, haunting hymns; knockout choir robes (and stupefyingly ornate hats on the ladies in the congregation) and a rousing, deeply challenging sermon by an Afro-American.priest. Shouts of “amen” at particularly moving points. Kids dressed up to the nines. All very emotional, joyous yet reverent, worshipful and, well, just neat! Maybe this is what your Afro-Centric Mass will be. For your sake, I hope it is. I’m not black, and I’m as ultramontane as they come, but I think it’s neat!

My husband interned at an inner city parish that had a large African-American population (this was at one of a cluster he was assigned to). I agree with ridgerunner - they were beautiful. Not a big choir though, but great voices. I loved it!

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

If they are done right, no problem. There is a parish in Joliet that does it right, I think it’s called Sacred Heart. Wonderful place!

If they are done improperly, well…In Chicago, someplace, there is a priest who uses his parish to make political hay. He even has a core of men whose sole parish volunteer function is to guard his person. The parish does not have Mass or Liturgy. It has “services”. The only thing that makes it Mass is when the priest eventually gets around to the consecration. It tries too hard to be Willow Creek, Salem Baptist and the storefront church all rolled into one. Why this parish thinks a person of color cannot embrace the reverent NO Mass is beyond me!

Everything about the parish has been not placed in the Great Tradition of African-American Churchgoing in the context of Roman Catholicism, but has in my opnion, as well as those of others, become a protestant church of the Archdiocese of Chicago. I think His Eminence only keeps this priest in place so he knows where said priest is.

 

[lucybeebee]

Maybe it’s just me, but I’m not a fan of these kinds of masses and I’m black myself. Before I started going to aTLM parish, I went to a predominantly black parish that used gospel music and had one of these Afro-Centric Masses. I can understand wanting to feel proud of one’s culture, but mass is not the place to do that. That’s why we have a parish hall, for non-mass related functions. Mass is not the time for a mutual self-admiration club, as it is re-presenting the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary. I also don’t see the point of having gospel music in a Catholic church since gospel grew out of black Protestant worship. Correct me if I’m wrong, but prior to Vatican II, black Catholics would have had the same TLM as everyone else, right? Gospel music would have been confined to the Baptist or Methodist church across the street. Now it seems like all of the black parishes are being told that gospel music is “part of our heritage” so it has to be in the mass. What’s the point of being Catholic if what you get is a Baptist or Pentacostal service with transubstantiation thrown in for good measure? I don’t have anything against gospel music, I just think that Gregorian Chant and sacred polyphony are proper to the Catholic liturigical tradition and are the real heritage of Catholics, no matter what their ethnic background.

 

[Georgess]

Please take this as an opinion of someone with only little knowledge of the topic being discussed ; yet having once walked into the Ge’ez Liturgy of the Coptic Catholic Church , sensing the profound simplicity …and beauty … even if the language could not be understood … one could wish if many more were exposed to it …and may be the mega churches of other denominations will be filled with persons who have discovered their true roots …

The way the chants touch all our hearts … ? an indication of our common Jewish Blood

May be EWTN can capture and bring such an experince at a partial level … to many more …later to be fully experienced by being present in person !

 

[DiscerningDave]

I agree with Karin. Why does there need to be a racially orientated mass. We are all suppose to be one under God within his one true church.

Seems to me, having a mass that is racially driven just alienates that group from the rest of hte church.

(This does not include masses in different languages) I am simply reffering to the “cultural” theme of the mass.

 

[SMHW]

I agree with Karin. Why does there need to be a racially orientated mass. We are all suppose to be one under God within his one true church.

Seems to me, having a mass that is racially driven just alienates that group from the rest of hte church.

It’s my suspicion that those who enjoy attending these Afro-American Masses are frequently white people who feel they don’t have a culture of their own so they want experience that of some other group.

 

[Karin]

It’s been my experience that those who enjoy attending these Afro-American Masses are frequently white people who feel they don’t have a culture of their own so they want experience that of some other group.

Ah…I guess this “white gal” has enough “culture” then

 

[bones_IV]

why do we need a racially themed mass to begin with?

Good question.

 

[DiscerningDave]

It’s my suspicion that those who enjoy attending these Afro-American Masses are frequently white people who feel they don’t have a culture of their own so they want experience that of some other group.

Then go to a blues festival or an International Festival, but don’t bring it into church. We are suppose to be one common body with Christ. Pointing out differences seems to me, in my opinion, to cause a form of separation.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Maybe it’s just me, but I’m not a fan of these kinds of masses and I’m black myself. Before I started going to aTLM parish, I went to a predominantly black parish that used gospel music and had one of these Afro-Centric Masses. I can understand wanting to feel proud of one’s culture, but mass is not the place to do that. That’s why we have a parish hall, for non-mass related functions. Mass is not the time for a mutual self-admiration club, as it is re-presenting the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary. I also don’t see the point of having gospel music in a Catholic church since gospel grew out of black Protestant worship. Correct me if I’m wrong, but prior to Vatican II, black Catholics would have had the same TLM as everyone else, right? Gospel music would have been confined to the Baptist or Methodist church across the street. Now it seems like all of the black parishes are being told that gospel music is “part of our heritage” so it has to be in the mass. What’s the point of being Catholic if what you get is a Baptist or Pentacostal service with transubstantiation thrown in for good measure? I don’t have anything against gospel music, I just think that Gregorian Chant and sacred polyphony are proper to the Catholic liturigical tradition and are the real heritage of Catholics, no matter what their ethnic background.

Yes, you are correct.

Did you ever read the book Red Sky At Morning? The story starts in Mobile, AL, immediately before WWII. The family’s maid is black, but she is Catholic, with a lovely singing voice that she uses while she works. The lady of the house calls her into the living room during a dinner party to sing spirituals. As a Catholic, the maid cannot comply, partially because she thinks it is a sin; and because she simply doesn’t know any spirituals. The employer thinks it is scandalous that a black person does not know spirituals. She gets a chorus book the next day and teaches the maid to sing a couple. So, to keep the job, the maid sings the spirituals on Friday evenings at dinner parties, then goes to confession on Saturdays regarding said songs.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Maybe it’s just me, but I’m not a fan of these kinds of masses and I’m black myself. Before I started going to aTLM parish, I went to a predominantly black parish that used gospel music and had one of these Afro-Centric Masses. I can understand wanting to feel proud of one’s culture, but mass is not the place to do that. That’s why we have a parish hall, for non-mass related functions. Mass is not the time for a mutual self-admiration club, as it is re-presenting the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary. I also don’t see the point of having gospel music in a Catholic church since gospel grew out of black Protestant worship. Correct me if I’m wrong, but prior to Vatican II, black Catholics would have had the same TLM as everyone else, right? Gospel music would have been confined to the Baptist or Methodist church across the street. Now it seems like all of the black parishes are being told that gospel music is “part of our heritage” so it has to be in the mass. What’s the point of being Catholic if what you get is a Baptist or Pentacostal service with transubstantiation thrown in for good measure? I don’t have anything against gospel music, I just think that Gregorian Chant and sacred polyphony are proper to the Catholic liturigical tradition and are the real heritage of Catholics, no matter what their ethnic background.

You are indeed correct. The Marsalis family were members of our same parish pre 1965 and they did indeed celebrate the Mass in Latin with chant and sacred polyphony. But I am every bit as much a child of New Orleans as they.

New Orleans now has three Archbishops in residence, Abp. Hannan from my youth, Abp. Schulte, and Abp. Huges who was bishop Hughes here in Baton Rouge. All three were in attendance at a concert “Mass” at St. Louis Cathedral - Missa Creola which incorporated all of New Orleans’ musical heritage - classical, Dixieland, gospel, and Jazz.

I’ve sung in a cathedral choir with all the Gregorian Chant and sacred polyphony you want. Don’t get me wrong, I love it. But on the other hand, we are Catholic down here in south Louisiana. We are black and white. The music which was played and sung during that Mass cut across all racial boundaries. It was the music of the people of Louisiana. And it affected me down to my little toe.

OK, I could have done without the liturgical second liners. But I think about the fact that Katrina was equal opportunity…she destroyed all of us and we’ve not even begun to assimilate the Vietnamese into our great gumbo.

We don’t bat an eye for bagpipes, do we? Mariachi’s either. Gospel, jazz and Dixieland are no differnte.

 

[DiscerningDave]

You are indeed correct. The Marsalis family were members of our same parish pre 1965 and they did indeed celebrate the Mass in Latin with chant and sacred polyphony. But I am every bit as much a child of New Orleans as they.

New Orleans now has three Archbishops in residence, Abp. Hannan from my youth, Abp. Schulte, and Abp. Huges who was bishop Hughes here in Baton Rouge. All three were in attendance at a concert “Mass” at St. Louis Cathedral - Missa Creola which incorporated all of New Orleans’ musical heritage - classical, Dixieland, gospel, and Jazz.

I’ve sung in a cathedral choir with all the Gregorian Chant and sacred polyphony you want. Don’t get me wrong, I love it. But on the other hand, we are Catholic down here in south Louisiana. We are black and white. The music which was played and sung during that Mass cut across all racial boundaries. It was the music of the people of Louisiana. And it affected me down to my little toe.

OK, I could have done without the liturgical second liners. But I think about the fact that Katrina was equal opportunity…she destroyed all of us and we’ve not even begun to assimilate the Vietnamese into our great gumbo.

We don’t bat an eye for bagpipes, do we? Mariachi’s either. Gospel, jazz and Dixieland are no differnte.

as you know BrotherRolf, I too am from south Louisiana, born and raised. You and I have had some great conversing on here before and will probably continue to do so for a long time to come.
While I agree with your view on S. Louisiana and who we are as a people, I do not agree with incorporating it into the mass.

I think the mass cuts across all boundries quite well without the need for adding a cultural basis to the mass. The great thing about the mass is that the format is not designed for a particular culture, it is designed for a child of Christ.

That being said, this is probably a moot point. Since we are definately living in end times since the Saints might go to the Superbowl.
Peace

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

I agree with Karin. Why does there need to be a racially orientated mass. We are all suppose to be one under God within his one true church.

Seems to me, having a mass that is racially driven just alienates that group from the rest of hte church.

(This does not include masses in different languages) I am simply reffering to the “cultural” theme of the mass.

I agree. Why should there be “theme” Masses, whether race-oriented, music-centered, childrens’, or otherwise. Does one see Greek Orthodox parishioners showing up to their church wearing togas? The Mass is Christ-centered and cannot be anything else.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I don’t have a problem with the reverent use of local musical forms. I remember our beloved JPII when he went to Mexico City and was greeted and serenaded by folks dressed in authentic Aztec costumes and singing sacred polyphony using Aztecan themes

amazon.com/Guadalupe-Virgen-Los-Indios-Savae/dp/B000009QQW/sr=1-2/qid=1168896805/ref=sr_1_2/102-8267546-7420144?ie=UTF8&s=music

Check this album out. SAVAE gave a concert at my cathedral parish and it was awesome.

Likewise, years ago, as a member of the cathedral choir, I sang at the ordination of a priest who was born in Viet Nam. We sang the responsorial psalm in Vietnamese and our local Vietnamese parish sang the Offertory hymn in Vietnamese.

Dave, I have to say that, yes, I could do without the second lining - that was a distraction. But, this concert setting of the Mass in St. Louis Cathedral spoke to my heart. I went to 8th grade at St. Aloysius and we were housed in St. Augustine’s school. The Brother’s let us out of class for all of the jazz/dixieland funerals which were conducted from the funeral parlor across the street to St. Augustine. My grandmother played ragtime on the piano in our family’s Irish Channel home.

I think about my beloved city. I have walked amongst its ruins. Unless I am mistaken, south Louisiana has the largest number of African American Catholics in the US. They’re Catholic, we’re Catholic …our hearts beat to the rhythm of the City. I am Creole. They are Creole. I am a New Orleanian, they are New Orleanian. We all got blown away by Katrina.

I know what’s going on down home. But I also know that neither black nor white or Vietnamese or Cubans, or Sicilians or anyone else who has become part of the gumbo which is New Orleans…I don’t have a problem with reverent local musical traditions. Do I want to be buried with a brass band?

No! I’m a Celt! I want my mourners to head to Parasol’s and get a good roast beef po-boy! I want Celtic music played! But that’s us. We are part of the fabric of New Orleans - just like all the rest of us.

 

[netmilsmom]

No! I’m a Celt! I want my mourners to head to Parasol’s and get a good roast beef po-boy! I want Celtic music played! But that’s us. We are part of the fabric of New Orleans - just like all the rest of us.

Can I come? Pretty please.

 

[DiscerningDave]

I don’t have a problem with the reverent use of local musical forms. I remember our beloved JPII when he went to Mexico City and was greeted and serenaded by folks dressed in authentic Aztec costumes and singing sacred polyphony using Aztecan themes

amazon.com/Guadalupe-Virgen-Los-Indios-Savae/dp/B000009QQW/sr=1-2/qid=1168896805/ref=sr_1_2/102-8267546-7420144?ie=UTF8&s=music

Check this album out. SAVAE gave a concert at my cathedral parish and it was awesome.

Likewise, years ago, as a member of the cathedral choir, I sang at the ordination of a priest who was born in Viet Nam. We sang the responsorial psalm in Vietnamese and our local Vietnamese parish sang the Offertory hymn in Vietnamese.

Dave, I have to say that, yes, I could do without the second lining - that was a distraction. But, this concert setting of the Mass in St. Louis Cathedral spoke to my heart. I went to 8th grade at St. Aloysius and we were housed in St. Augustine’s school. The Brother’s let us out of class for all of the jazz/dixieland funerals which were conducted from the funeral parlor across the street to St. Augustine. My grandmother played ragtime on the piano in our family’s Irish Channel home.

I think about my beloved city. I have walked amongst its ruins. Unless I am mistaken, south Louisiana has the largest number of African American Catholics in the US. They’re Catholic, we’re Catholic …our hearts beat to the rhythm of the City. I am Creole. They are Creole. I am a New Orleanian, they are New Orleanian. We all got blown away by Katrina.

I know what’s going on down home. But I also know that neither black nor white or Vietnamese or Cubans, or Sicilians or anyone else who has become part of the gumbo which is New Orleans…I don’t have a problem with reverent local musical traditions. Do I want to be buried with a brass band?

No! I’m a Celt! I want my mourners to head to Parasol’s and get a good roast beef po-boy! I want Celtic music played! But that’s us. We are part of the fabric of New Orleans - just like all the rest of us.

And I would have taken you for a Pascal’s Manale type of guy. Passtime has some pretty good roast beef poboy’s too.

I am a traditionalist. We are there to worship, not to be entertained. Just my view.

 

[anamchara]

I could be wrong about this. In St. Louis (no doubt other places) there is a largely African-American parish at which Masses are perfectly orthodox, but at which the liturgical “extras” are all reminiscent of Deep South Black Protestant stuff. Incredibly beautiful, rhythmic, harmonic, well-rehearsed, haunting hymns; knockout choir robes (and stupefyingly ornate hats on the ladies in the congregation) and a rousing, deeply challenging sermon by an Afro-American.priest. Shouts of “amen” at particularly moving points. Kids dressed up to the nines. All very emotional, joyous yet reverent, worshipful and, well, just neat! Maybe this is what your Afro-Centric Mass will be. For your sake, I hope it is. I’m not black, and I’m as ultramontane as they come, but I think it’s neat!

That does sound very nice, would be something to see. We could losen up a bit a times