After 12 years, it is time

[mskejj]

Have you read the book “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis? If you haven’t, I would highly recommend it for you

 

[catharina]

I hope this won’t be too depressing of an email to read, but I am really interested in everyone’s thoughts about how to decrease the pain I am about to cause my family.

I am a cradle Catholic who went to Catholic school, and had additional studies in the faith at home, we went to church every week and prayed as a family before meals and before leaving for the day. In high school, I had some concerns by the silence I felt when praying, and some questions, but nothing too major. In college I began taking comparative religion courses, and that’s when the serious breakdown in my faith began. I spoke with priests, attended religious retreats, and researched, but Catholicism made less and less sense to me over the years. I realized that I can no longer truthfully say that I am Catholic - agnostic is more of an accurate description, and I am teetering on atheism. I do not believe that my faith/belief is a choice, (Mother Theresa didn’t choose to have a crisis of faith, for example) as my mind simply won’t let me believe something that doesn’t make sense to me, even though I’ve chosen to take actions to attempt to fix that. (I’ve researched, prayed, and asked God for help etc… this is not something I’ve taken lightly). I only realized that I couldn’t continue to call myself Catholic since I didn’t believe in the core principles anymore. I wouldn’t choose to purposely hurt my family, but living a lie is worse I think, (especially when children will be involved). I’m not doing this to get a free hour every Sunday, I’m doing this because it doesn’t make sense to me anymore.

My family has suffered multiple traumas over the past 5 years so I have put off adding this to their list, as I know my parents and one of my siblings would be devastated to learn that I am no longer Catholic. But my husband and I are TTC and I can’t wait any longer and keep avoiding the issue. Things are calm now so I need to do this sometime in the next few months before I get pregnant as we won’t be baptizing him or her or raising as a Catholic. (We will be trying to teach our children about many religions and let them decide.)

So here is what I am asking - I want to know how I can phrase this to my family in a manner that will hurt them the least. I figure I will tell them that they have been wonderful parents to me, and that they have raised me well in the faith (I don’t want them to feel like failures that I am no longer Catholic), and that I don’t want them to be hurt, but that after years of study, I can’t understand how Catholicism is the truth, (and this isn’t a ‘phase’).

I acknowledge that there is a possibility that I will be cast out of the family, and that tears me up inside. I don’t want my family thinking that I’m doomed and going to hell. I also don’t want them to change anything about their own lives on account of me - for example, I want them to keep praying before meals (I will just bow my head in silence). I don’t want them to feel they need to hide anything about their faith nor do I want to try to ‘deconvert’ them. Any advise is appreciated to help me lessen their hurt.

**Faith is a virtue. It is a gift from God.
“God does not repent of gifts given or calls made.”

When one nurtures doubts rather than faith, one can lose one’s faith.
Return to God and ask for His asssitance.**

There is no easy road for you to take.
Your current actions wil grieve your family
as you very well know.

 

[ryecroft]

Hello Rachel,

Another poster was quite correct about the presence of secular/atheist boards where many of us are willing to share with you our experiences with family members after leaving faith behind. My best recommendation would be to share your situation on the secular lifestyle subforum of FRDB, one of the longest-standing atheist communitites on the web.

But I’d be happy to share a synopsis of what I’ve seen, mixed with my own experiences.

First, even with the best of intentions and the most careful planning, breaking the news to your family can go horribly wrong, so you need to prepare yourself for rejection. I have a niece I haven’t been allowed to see in 15 years because of my sister’s reaction to my announcement. I haven’t had as much as a picture of her since she was 3 years old. This could happen to you. too. I know of much worse rejections, especially when one’s social circle is closely interwoven with one’s church community.

On the other hand, I still have a very good relationship with my brother’s family, despite the fact that he is a very conservative Lutheran minister. There really is no way to tell ahead of time how well or poorly different members of your family will react. Their reaction is really more about their feelings than it is about your loss of faith. Some family members will not be able to dissociate your rejection of their religion from a more general rejection of themselves.

If there’s one thing I’ve gleaned from my own experiences and the stories of others who’ve been through the same ordeal, it’s that you should take careful stock of what price you’re willing to pay to give up “living the lie.” This is not the best of all possible worlds. There are consequences far more severe than having to put on a false face for the sake of family harmony. Ask yourself what your family really needs to know about your faith decisions, and share no more than that bare minimum, meanwhile making it abundantly clear that your feelings for them are not contingent upon anything other than your family relations. My brother is still my brother.

Good luck to you.

As ever, Jesse

I’m reading some of these responses and it really kind of scares me/blows my mind. First of all, I feel really badly for you by not having been able to talk to your neice or see her. Perhaps when she’s 18 (which should be happening sonn if it hasn’t already) - perhaps she will want to find out about what all of the fuss regarding you is - I sure hope so. But the reactions I’m hearing, if I was thinking about leaving the faith, I would think would just reinforce my desire to leave. I don’t remember ever reading in the Bible that if someone decides they don’t want to be Christian that we should punnish or shun them. I used to believe that the Amish were really sever by shunning - then I learned that you are only shunned if after going through your running around time around 16-20 or so, you decide that you will make your decision to remain Amish. If after making this solemn promise, you decide you no longer want to be Amish then this is when you are shunned.
I like a lot of things about Catholicism - but I grew up in Japan and some of the Bhudist and Shinto principals became very engrained in me - or I feel they were. One of the things I’m refering to is that (at least in these two religions), you are told that it’s really good to question Bhuddism - and it’s good to get answers and if those answers don’t make sense then try to talk to an elder - it also encourages looking not only within yourself but also to other faiths. I wish that Catholicism was more this way. I thank God that there isn’t anything to prevent me from going to some other Church with my friends - at least Catholicism has gotten past the point of saying it’s a sin to do that.
I hope that the poster, if/when she does mention this to the family does let them know if they fly off of the handle regarding this situation - remind them that flying off the handle and trying to punish someone for considering/becoming another faith, isn’t very Christian. Honestly, I wouldn’t say anything if I were you. I guess when you do have children then you might want to let them know. I’m really hoping you wern’t married in the Church, were you? Regardless of what happens, I hope that you truly find what you’re looking for. And I know you’ve said you’ve made your mind up, but please know if you ever change your mind, I pray that you won’t hesitate to come back to your faith.
God Bless
Rye

p.s. some on here are kind of throwing the parents of this lady under the truck, so to say - I think that’s a really inappropriate leap. Assuming that the parent is at fault for the child questioning Catholicism and not agreeing with the tenants of Catholicism is NOT ALWAYS the parents fault. I think the only way you could keep many from straying from the faith would require that the child be so sheltered that they had no exposure to anything but Catholicism - and that just (at least in todays society) - be near impossible, unless you kept the kid locked up at home all the time - and having a way too strict task master. Parents can only instill so much in the child/ young adult - at some point, that kid is going to have to think for his/herself.
I’m pleasantly suprized by some of the posters on here - instead of tearing this poster down for deciding to leave the Church, Some of you have been very good about answering the question she put forward.

 

[kenofken]

I forgot to mention. Just because you are married does not mean you are still not needing love? And if you try and let your kid decide what religion to pick they will pick Pagan and you will watcht them self destruct. Look around you open your eyes to the youth and MTV what religion do you think they will pick?..

Good luck… I will pray for you…

Hopefully they will have the knowledge and critical thinking skills to pick a path less bigoted than this. Since becoming pagan myself in my early 30s (and not at MTV’s behest), I have come to know some of the finest, most intelligent and ethical people I have ever had the privilege to know. They are well read and well spoken. Their (our) community is like an extended family that looks out for one another in good times and bad.

Most of the children and teens I have met in that circle respect themselves and adults. They are taught to think for themselves and to develop a reverence for life of all kinds. I just returned from a housewarming party full of these folks. I met one 13-year old young man who is now a sophomore in college. He will have a degree by the time most kids have their driver’s license. Now I don’t maintain that being pagan makes one a genius, but he hardly seems on the brink of self-destruction!

None of them force paganism on their kids either. One of the young sons of my hosts last evening decided he wanted to be Christian. His mother has supported him every step of the way in that. Now if you had just said that there is a danger in letting the popular culture raise your kid, I’d agree 100%, but instead you cite us as the worst case scenario out of ignorance and narrow mindedness. A lot of evangelicals say the same thing about Catholicism, that it’s a path to darkness and destruction.

Giving your kids an education and exposure to different religions is great advice. If you brainwash a kid into Catholicism (or any other religion) at an early age, chances are very slim that they will ever grow into the faith at any depth as adults. Furthermore, they will lack critical thinking skills and a well developed sense of self. When they rebel from the faith, as most will, they will be ripe for the plucking for the least-common-denominator consumerist culture we all so dread.

 

[kage_ar]

Ken, brilliance does not = goodness. Satan was the brightest of all the angels. Of COURSE he makes it look shiny and good, who would follow him if it was covered in boils and smelly?

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

Hopefully they will have the knowledge and critical thinking skills to pick a path less bigoted than this. Since becoming pagan myself in my early 30s (and not at MTV’s behest), I have come to know some of the finest, most intelligent and ethical people I have ever had the privilege to know. They are well read and well spoken. Their (our) community is like an extended family that looks out for one another in good times and bad…

Looking at your comments you would think I had made up the fact that the majority of people that live this lifestyle are not doing well. I am very happy for you that you are doing so well, however I think your experience is likely similar to the person that makes it in professional sports. Most would not deny that the individual that makes it does not have a chance for happiness, however even among this group many are not happy. How many are left in the sewer on that trip to the top? One could argue that this has nothing to do with religion, however I believe that would be an error in judgment. I think that the reason that this is relevant is because the values of this pursuit, for the most part, is counter to most faiths. Why do I say this? It is because the level of intense focus takes ones eyes off of God and focuses it on a goal that elevates oneself. This is not ALL inclusive, but for the most part I think you would agree that when pursuing things in your own interests a person will learn certain response patterns. This can be proved over time for most societies that do behave in this light tend to have extreme consequences for going outside of laws enacted by the State. The reason is that people will tend to stray because they have no inherent belief other then the pursuit of self when things get bad. I don’t mean bad like in the US but bad like in Haiti, or India, or Malaysia.

Most of the children and teens I have met in that circle respect themselves and adults. They are taught to think for themselves and to develop a reverence for life of all kinds. I just returned from a housewarming party full of these folks. I met one 13-year old young man who is now a sophomore in college. He will have a degree by the time most kids have their driver’s license. Now I don’t maintain that being pagan makes one a genius, but he hardly seems on the brink of self-destruction! .

Good for him. I wonder if they have the same trepidations that I do. My son too is going to go to High School early and if he does not change his path he will finish when he is 16. He wants to fly but unfortunately we will see if our society punishes him for his success. Currently the Military Academies have an age requirement that might prevent him from achieving his dream without waiting.

None of them force paganism on their kids either. One of the young sons of my hosts last evening decided he wanted to be Christian. His mother has supported him every step of the way in that. Now if you had just said that there is a danger in letting the popular culture raise your kid, I’d agree 100%, but instead you cite us as the worst case scenario out of ignorance and narrow mindedness. A lot of evangelicals say the same thing about Catholicism, that it’s a path to darkness and destruction…

You make an assumption that my thoughts are based out of ignorance. If a person is baptized, but does not follow Christ. If they in stead choose the pursuit of self, whether through educational awareness, money, fame, status. Worshiping false idols. I am not using the term in the Classical sense. One could argue that if they followed the tenants of some of the older Pagan religions that it could be possible to live a life of giving to others, but still in the pursuit of helping self. Christians do the same in General I would say. For many they obey to prevent punishment. For a rare few they go to the next level and live a total life out of love for Christ. I am nowhere near there. I am using the term Pagan as it applies to the pursuit of self, creating gods of ideas or things that are used to enlighten once “senses” of pleasure or personal enjoyment in this world, more American Paganism. I enlisted in the Navy 24 years ago, and can say that my pursuit of self drove me to be a “Success” by the standards of man, but I until I started reaching out to Christ, something was really missing. Obviously I have moved a lot of my beliefs and I honestly do believe the CCC when is says that those people that do not join the Church through now fault of their own, that live according to the principles of good written on their hearts as part of the Natural Law, may make it to heaven. So Pagans, in the classical sense, could make it their even before a sinner like me. The odds of someone living a Pagan lifestyle such as that threading the culture of death we have is highly unlikely, but it is possible.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

Giving your kids an education and exposure to different religions is great advice. If you brainwash a kid into Catholicism (or any other religion) at an early age, chances are very slim that they will ever grow into the faith at any depth as adults. Furthermore, they will lack critical thinking skills and a well developed sense of self. When they rebel from the faith, as most will, they will be ripe for the plucking for the least-common-denominator consumerist culture we all so dread.

Exposing a child to the concepts and ideas is different then abandoning them to choose on their own. I would not take my child to a sex shop, or Planned Parenthood and let them wonder the aisles without some form of explanation or examples from my perspective. That is parental responsibilities. My son is going to Church on his own, he knows what I believe and he knows why. I have more warts then a toad and he can see the results of life choices all around him. In the end he will make that choice on his own, it is freewill, the question is have I exposed him too it, or did I make him find the proverbial needle in the haystack on his own.

I have been around youths for many years now and in my job I can say very little outside of the bounds of work. I have seen a LOT of lost people and I can tell you that for the most part those people that turn to the Church find meaning in their lives. Finding a mate in a bar, hospital, church, prison, mall, Internet, movie theater all have significant consequences. What movie were you watching? What Church were you in? Each has values and in the end even if NO GOD exists what would be the purpose of your life? I would argue that it would be to procreate. Without a higher being their really is no other reason to exist. One could then argue about successful breeding strategies. Do you pick a mate and take time to raise your offspring trying to ensure they survive, or do you have as many children as possible, with as many different women and let them fight to survive, shotgun and Darwin approach. If you do not believe in a purpose then either is an acceptable method. One might get you in trouble with Man-Made laws, but why worry about those if the payoff is increasing your DNA in the gene pool? This pattern of thought, for me, is ugly as the children left will grow up in a very hard world. Will they survive? Some undoubtedly will, but the pain and suffering for those that don’t is something that my genetic programming does not allow.

I would close by saying that IF I offended you I apologize and you are correct that making sweeping generalizations is not a very effective way of arguing, but for me at least when talking about a child a path that has an 10% success rate versus one that has a 40% success or 80% will likely draw a sweeping generalization from me. In all honesty this was not presented as an argument, but rather simple advice. If you had been my audience I would have taken a different approach, if any at all. In this case is was not because I “Don’t know better”, but because I don’t want to split hairs on the examples of the few when it comes to things such as this. I just think that she should carefully consider what she is about to do. I would give her the same advice if she was a Muslim, Jew, or Lutheran.

Her comment about this not being a Phase… well I have found that as much as I would use that same argument for decisions I was about to make, the more that I would later determine that I was in a phase. I am likely in a phase now and will transition into another phase later. I think that is what humanity describes as wisdom…??

In any event the goal here, at least for me, is to offer advice that I have learned as I have gone through these phases. It is amazing to me how much of it is exactly the same advice my parents offered me that I refused to follow… at a cost.

God Bless

 

[catharina]

…

You make an assumption that my thoughts are based out of ignorance. If a person is baptized, but does not follow Christ. If they in stead choose the pursuit of self, whether through educational awareness, money, fame, status. Worshiping false idols. I am not using the term in the Classical sense. One could argue that if they followed the tenants of some of the older Pagan religions that it could be possible to live a life of giving to others, but still in the pursuit of helping self. Christians do the same in General I would say. For many they obey to prevent punishment. For a rare few they go to the next level and live a total life out of love for Christ. I am nowhere near there. I am using the term Pagan as it applies to the pursuit of self, creating gods of ideas or things that are used to enlighten once “senses” of pleasure or personal enjoyment in this world, more American Paganism. I enlisted in the Navy 24 years ago, and can say that my pursuit of self drove me to be a “Success” by the standards of man, but I until I started reaching out to Christ, something was really missing. Obviously I have moved a lot of my beliefs and I honestly do believe the CCC when is says that those people that do not join the Church through no fault of their own, that live according to the principles of good written on their hearts as part of the Natural Law, may make it to heaven. So Pagans, in the classical sense, could make it their even before a sinner like me. The odds of someone living a Pagan lifestyle such as that threading the culture of death we have is highly unlikely, but it is possible.

Wonderful statement, Jeff.
With no personal condemnation, with only Church teaching, I acknowledge another
type of action: that of abandoning one’s Faith. That is the action of kenofken:
"Jan 20, '10, 12:56 pm
kenofken
New Member Join Date: December 13, 2009
Posts: 90

Re: Former Catholics…

---

Yes, I did end up sending a letter to a bishop (actually the Archdiocese of Chicago), this past summer. I had not been a practicing or beleiving Catholic for at least 20 years. After many years of searching and discernment as a secular/agnostic, I dedicated myself to a pagan path, where I have been very happy and fulfilled."*

Within that series of posts, he defines himself as wiccan.
I’m unclear as to why he wishes to visit a Catholic site named Catholic Answers.

 

[kenofken]

"
Within that series of posts, he defines himself as wiccan.
I’m unclear as to why he wishes to visit a Catholic site named Catholic Answers.

I come to forums like this for the same reason everyone should be interacting outside of their own little Balkanized enclaves: you learn nothing by only talking with those who agree with you. The art of civil debate and and the reason we’ve devolved into an angry, paranoid body politic is because we’ve fragmented into a billion little interest groups who only listen to their own “truths” and taken pains to not to be contaminated by any facts or arguments which might call those truths into question.

By having these conversations with Catholics, Muslims, atheists, etc, I become a more informed citizen, and a better pagan apologist, you might say. I find that too many Christian, and Catholic apologists cannot construct a reasoned theological argument for their beliefs because they haven’t done even the most cursory research into faith traditions beyond their own. They haven’t a clue what paganism or Wicca are really about, but they “know” its bad news from a pop culture buzz informed by Jack Chick comics, Hollywood, and what they wanted to believe about us all along because it’s convenient to do so. Everybody in the middle ages “knew” Jews performed blood sacrifice and desecrated the Christian Host. Plus they’ve seen kids wearing pentagrams who got into drugs and other problems, so it’s all self-evident that we’re bad news. No statistics, no facts to back it up, and no need. In a society largely deconditioned to critical thinking, you only have to believe something hard enough and repeat it often enough and loud enough for it to become “truth.”

The root of my problem with NewcatholicJeff’s initial statement is that he conflates “pagan” with nihilism, hedonism and a self-serving grab for power to advance oneself above others at all costs. That supposition is based on willfull ignorace, if not malice. Had he done any reading or gotten to know an actual pagan or two, he would know that we do have moral codes and a sense of right action and accountability to something much bigger than ourselves. That doesn’t mean we don’t have our share of fools and knaves who find justification for libertine antics or irresponsibility, but it’s not because our faith sanctions it or is silent on the matter. We have the full range of good and bad, as does Catholicism. Growing up in a virtually 100% Catholic community, the very good folks I knew were Catholic, but then so were the wife-beaters, the philaderers, the thieves and the child abusers. They all drank from the same well of religion, but you would agree that you could not accurately characterize Catholicism by the actions of any one of them or any subculture of them. I found the whole lot to be no more (or less) Christlike than average.

So that’s why I’m here and what I’m about. I do not expect to win any converts (nor do I want any). I do expect to learn and grow myself. My own status as an ex-Catholic notwithstanding, I have no grudge against the faith or its practicioners, but I will call out cheap defamation and poor logic when I see it.

 

[catharina]

"
Within that series of posts, he defines himself as wiccan.
I’m unclear as to why he wishes to visit a Catholic site named Catholic Answers.

I come to forums like this for the same reason everyone should be interacting outside of their own little Balkanized enclaves: you learn nothing by only talking with those who agree with you. …

Balkanized - mighty cute.

They haven’t a clue what paganism or Wicca are really about, but they “know” its bad news from a pop culture buzz informed by Jack Chick comics, Hollywood, and what they wanted to believe about us all along because it’s convenient to do so. …

Uhh, should I know the identity of Jack Chick? I don’t nor do I care to know.

In a society largely deconditioned to critical thinking, you only have to believe something hard enough and repeat it often enough and loud enough for it to become “truth.” …

That could be true for you.
However my own training was in Logic, then Ethics, from Jesuit professors.

The root of my problem with NewcatholicJeff’s initial statement is …

a matter for you to address to newCatholicjeff.

 

[fkjuliano]

Rachelbane,

It really appears that you’re going down the same path I did. When I was young (and even more) foolish, I questioned the existence of God, and the tenets of Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. Eventually, I decided that because I didn’t understand those concepts in full they were not true. But now I realize that whether or not I understand something has no bearing on its veracity, be that a theological concept or scientific one, like relativity. I know you reject this idea, but we all should accept that our minds are often not up to par with those of other humans and never with God’s. So I simply said, “God, if you exist, please give me faith. I want to believe.” And then, things just started happening. Moreover, I have started to gain some wonderful insights that have helped me understand things I did not in the past, and I believe that has come about through grace. To give just one example, it bothered me greatly that God had allowed the Hebrews to slay the Canaanites and take their land, but I decided that if that was the will of God, then it was for the best. Then I realized that throughout history God has always turned against those who practice human sacrifice (which the Canaanites did). Just look at the fate of the Carthaginians, the Aztecs, the Incas, etc. That, of course, speaks ill for America, which sacrifices its young at the altars of hedonism and feminism.

The bottomline: don’t try to make God conform Himself to your ideas, but conform your ideas to Him.