After East and West unite, we still gotta define territory

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Of course the elephant in the room is the glib Roman presumption that unity will take place under Papal authority, rather than the Roman Church coming back into the Byzantine fold, with the Patriarch of Rome abandoning his claims of universal primacy and personal infallibility.

That, and whenever reunion is talked about by Romans, it is always assumed that there are no serious theological differences remaining, just a few quibbles over terminology.

Nothing could be further from the reality.

The filioque remains a huge issue, cutting to the very heart of Orthodox theology. It is not a question of whether “and the Son” was inserted canonically or not, or even if the Eastern version (that is, the *original *version) can be recited, with the Roman addition unspoken but understood. The idea of the Holy Spirit co-proceeding from the Son not only compromises the Father as the unique “source” of the other Two, but necessarily a mutual begetting of the Son as well, and with the Persons of the Holy Trinity defined thus by their relationship to each other, you approach the old heresy of Modalism. It is not a phrase to drop in or out at will!

The question of original sin is also more than simple semantics, and again, the issue cuts deep into Roman doctrine, most specifically with regard to the so-called Immaculate Conception – I’ll not go deeper into that here. Also the Roman definition of Transubstantiation – Orthodoxy is content to leave the miracle of the Holy Eucharist a mystery, and rejects the blueprinting of God’s work. Additionally, many skeptics make valid objections to transubstantiation – if the “essence” is fully changed, and only the “accidents” remain, why must those with wheat allergies avoid the Host? And why does the Blood still intoxicate if the alcohol is not there? These are great and holy mysteries which the popes claimed to lay out like a math equation.

Only when Rome abandons her unlawful and wild speculations and innovations will the Holy Church again be one, inshallah.
Whatever the merits of your comments, and I’m not going to get into them, this thread was specifically about territorial breakdown. There have been many other threads which have dealt with those issues specifically. I think if you wish to deal with them, a new thread should be made.
 
So whose rite gets obliterated?
Why does any rite have to get obliterated?

Multiple rites can be practiced under a single bishop. I see no reason why we need such conformity. There are cases in the past.
 
So whose rite gets obliterated?
Good question, I presume you mean where the ancient home territories overlap, like Ukraine, then what bishops would have to step down. For example:

Latin Catholic
Ukrainian Greek Catholic
Armenian Greek Catholic
Ruthenian Greek Catholic
Ukrainian Orthodox (Moscow)
Ukrainian Orthodox (Kyivan)
etc.

Regardless of the various liturgical rites, which could still be used in various parishes.
 
Whatever the merits of your comments, and I’m not going to get into them, this thread was specifically about territorial breakdown. There have been many other threads which have dealt with those issues specifically. I think if you wish to deal with them, a new thread should be made.
Fair enough, but the underlying issue and assumption (*not *The Assumption!) remain as the unspoken sine qua non.

As to some of the other comments, I will simply reiterate that the Western mania for blueprinting the ineffable is a major hangup, and that what Latins tend to gloss over as definitional quibbles are really profound theological differences.
 
Fair enough, but the underlying issue and assumption (*not *The Assumption!) remain as the unspoken sine qua non.

As to some of the other comments, I will simply reiterate that the Western mania for blueprinting the ineffable is a major hangup, and that what Latins tend to gloss over as definitional quibbles are really profound theological differences.
I do disagree, although I don’t think it is impossible to come to understandings. We may be a ways away, but it was not so long ago that Catholics and Orthodox couldn’t even talk on this basis. Things have already gone a long way, though yes, we must remember, we have a long way to go.
 
Currently there are already Eastern Bishops who has the same territory as Latin Rite Bishops. Its hard to merge them unless there is a unified Liturgy within the Church, and I don’t think that will happen. No one will give up their Liturgical tradition. The issue is would a Latin Bishop know the ins-and-outs of a Byzantine Rite Parish? In the early Church there were no overlaps in territories because the Rites and sui juris Churches are maintained within their borders. You won’t see a Latin Rite parish in Greece for example, the same way you won’t see a Byzantine Rite parish in Rome. But today thats not the case, people who move kept not only their faith but the tradition that came with that faith. So parishes are established in accordance to their Liturgical tradition. In the event of a merger, it would not change. A Byzantine Bishop suits a Byzantine parish, and a Latin bishop suits a Latin parish.
nice I am agree with it…
 
Union of Christ’s Holy Churches

This discussion of who to be bishop of some place when union of Orthodox and Catolic has occured is very I call presumptuous. There is some widely held belief among here Catolic forum-visitors that there will soon be such a union This belief is not held by any Orthodox that I know But to make plans for bishops now is like buying clothes for man’s children before he even meets his wife. Who will be in such united church? Will non-Khalkedonic church be there like Armyanian, Koptic?? Will traditionalistic Catolics be there?? Will church be centralistic - ruled by one all-powerful bishop - in Rome? in Moskow?

Much too early to be making such discussion
 
Under this proposal, you probably would end up with no Eastern bishops in 49 out of 50 States, Alaska possibly being the only exception.
 
As to some of the other comments, I will simply reiterate that the Western mania for blueprinting the ineffable is a major hangup, and that what Latins tend to gloss over as definitional quibbles are really profound theological differences.
The mania of some for stereotyping the mentality of others is a major hangup.

Your comment here is very odd, given that your lack of knowledge on your blueprint issue was laid out in no uncertain terms. You really also ought to look through some of the many threads here on original sin and filioque.

As to the OP:
Metropolia in which multiple liturgicial rites were practiced surely existed in the first millenium. Why not just return to the best practices of that time?
 
The best solution it seems to me would be Bishops who are neutral about rites and who have priests under them who practice various different rites, it may even be a good thing to have have priests who are multi rite, if for example a priest can offer mass in both ordinary and extraordinary forms of the Latin rite, or in the Latin and Ambrosian rite as happens in Milan for example then why not priests who can offer mass in both eastern and western rites?

As long as we keep at the forefront that it all belongs t Christ the King and we merely fulfil His will I do not see this as an insurmountable obstacle, indeed it could be a great blessing.

And rather than Bishops stepping down you could just have smaller territories which are then gradually amalgamated organicly over time according to Gods will.

It is the Faith that matters not rites ultimately.
 
Under this proposal, you probably would end up with no Eastern bishops in 49 out of 50 States, Alaska possibly being the only exception.
One thing I’m wondering, though, is this: Would it be possible to occasionally have an Eastern bishop over one of the 49 states? IIRC, there are cases of bishops and even patriarchs of churches that have different rites or patrimonies from the norm of their dioceses being elected over said dioceses…
 
There are many cases of Latin Rite Bishops that have Eastern Rite parishes within their dioceses. The same is true of Easter Rite Bishops.

This is NOT a problem, unless mankind WANTS to make it a problem. Doing that does not serve God, it serves the needs of Satan.
 
Under this proposal, you probably would end up with no Eastern bishops in 49 out of 50 States, Alaska possibly being the only exception.
Nope. Orthodox are outnumbered 5:4 by Romans. The 250 or so EC’s are a drop in the about 300,000 people who are either Catholic or Orthodox in Alaska.
 
There are many cases of Latin Rite Bishops that have Eastern Rite parishes within their dioceses. The same is true of Easter Rite Bishops.

This is NOT a problem, unless mankind WANTS to make it a problem. Doing that does not serve God, it serves the needs of Satan.
This is exactly what I’ve been trying to get at.

Also, assuming all went well, I don’t think the majority in a diocese need affect the rite of a bishop.
 
I know I’ll get branded a cynic and get lynched for this but I’ll say it anyway. I think we have a better chance of George Lazenby coming back to play James Bond again and the Pirates winning back to back World Series than seeing Catholicism and Orthodoxy reunite.

Now I’ll duck and put on my cevlar 😛
 
I am not knowledgeable to actually argue on these things, but I would like to bring up some observations.

Here in San Francisco, there are several Eastern Catholic parishes and some are under Eastern Rite Bishops as heads of Eparchy overlapping the same geographical areas as Latin Rite Bishops. So I don’t see why there needs to be merges everywhere. Some places may need merging, but many will not. Some Eastern Catholic parishes that are nearly identical to the Eastern Orthodox parishes would probably be merge into the same Eparchy and have a head bishop and assistant bishops (I don’t know the technical terms if there are ones for these cases).

Irregardless of this scenario, if there are large number of territory merging. What would probably happen is that their will be co-bishops while these same bishops retain their episcopal roles. As these current bishops retire, then the territory will have a single head bishop who would be their successor. In addition some bishops may choose to retire early and such. Either way, it’s not necessarily the case that nearly every Eastern parish would have Latin Rite Bishops across the board due to the merger. Bishops, as far as I know, in the Catholic system are selected by the Congregation of Bishops and appointed by the Pope. So it does not matter what rite the priest is when he is promoted to the role of bishop. He would just be the bishop of the territory and retain whatever rite he had before he become bishop. So there could be plenty of Eastern Rite Bishops in charge of the newly merged territories if there are enough talented Eastern Rite priests and bishops to fulfill those roles.

So in own humble opinion, this will not be an issue and will be easily resolved as long as the Congregation of Bishops continues to function they way they do and not let anyone’s ego get in the way.
 
I know I’ll get branded a cynic and get lynched for this but I’ll say it anyway. I think we have a better chance of George Lazenby coming back to play James Bond again and the Pirates winning back to back World Series than seeing Catholicism and Orthodoxy reunite.

Now I’ll duck and put on my cevlar 😛
Sometimes I see promise, other times I see what can only described as arrogant blustering. It may happen, but certainly not tomorrow.
 
The mania of some for stereotyping the mentality of others is a major hangup.

Your comment here is very odd, given that your lack of knowledge on your blueprint issue was laid out in no uncertain terms. You really also ought to look through some of the many threads here on original sin and filioque.
Familiar with Aquinas’ Summa Theologica? It is not stereotyping someone else’s mentality, it is pointing out a complete way of thought within the Western Church which has dominated it since Medieval times, and continues to inform all of its theology.

Besides my point was more that when Romans start discussing ‘reunion’ it is always in terms of Roman supremacy and Orthodox return to Papal domination. You never seem to consider that it may be your Pope who needs to come back to us.
 
Familiar with Aquinas’ Summa Theologica? It is not stereotyping someone else’s mentality, it is pointing out a complete way of thought within the Western Church which has dominated it since Medieval times, and continues to inform all of its theology.
What you have read you may not have grasped - as evidenced by your risible argument about transubstantiation.
Besides my point was more that when Romans start discussing ‘reunion’ it is always in terms of Roman supremacy and Orthodox return to Papal domination. You never seem to consider that it may be your Pope who needs to come back to us.
I am not sure what is entailed in the idea of a “Pope who needs to come back to us”, so I cannot say whether this idea is being considered or not. However, the idea that reunion is always discussed :in terms of Roman supremacy" is dead wrong. Indeed, as I already mentioned, the question has been asked, from the Vatican: what exercise of Roman primacy would be acceptable to the Orthodox in a reunited church? Moreover, I don’t think there has ever been a question about the return of Orthodox to Papal domination.
 
I know I’ll get branded a cynic and get lynched for this but I’ll say it anyway. I think we have a better chance of George Lazenby coming back to play James Bond again and the Pirates winning back to back World Series than seeing Catholicism and Orthodoxy reunite.

Now I’ll duck and put on my cevlar 😛
The Resurrection will take care of the first. 😛
 
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