After Easter Mass this morning being confronted by liberals.

[BayernAnhaenger]

No, no…don’t just leave. Stay and help fix what needs fixin’!

Yeah, I would suggest that.

But there comes a point when it is just better to pack up and go, both on a mental level, and on a spiritual level.

 

[BSHoop96]

I think your diocese should be challenged on this. Absolutely nothing in Church law prohibits baptisms from being celebrated during Lent. In fact, if a diocese does not have infant baptisms during Lent, it may be obstructing parents from fulfilling their canonical obligations of making sure that their children are baptized within the first weeks after birth. That would be a violation of the rights of the parents and their children.

We do not have **public **(during Mass) baptism during Lent. Only private. Lent is not a time for public celebration.

 

[jmcrae]

I think your diocese should be challenged on this. Absolutely nothing in Church law prohibits baptisms from being celebrated during Lent.

So long as there is no party afterwards, and no flowers. But since it is customary for people to have parties after Baptisms, they just short-circuit the whole problem. There are no parties or flowers allowed during Lent.

In fact, if a diocese does not have infant baptisms during Lent, it may be obstructing parents from fulfilling their canonical obligations of making sure that their children are baptized within the first weeks after birth.

It is only six weeks from Ash Wednesday to Easter Sunday. They can be baptized on Easter Sunday.

 

[BSHoop96]

Yeah, I would suggest that.

But there comes a point when it is just better to pack up and go, both on a mental level, and on a spiritual level.

I know what you are saying…but really…think about it. We just celebrated Easter and the great gift Christ gave us. The OP won’t be stoned…fed to the lions…or martyred…he will just have to put up with parishoners who want to run the Church THEIR way .

Of course I do realize that it’s easy for me to say as I’m not having to do it.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

I know what you are saying…but really…think about it. We just celebrated Easter and the great gift Christ gave us. The OP won’t be stoned…fed to the lions…or martyred…he will just have to put up with parishoners who want to run the Church THEIR way .

Of course I do realize that it’s easy for me to say as I’m not having to do it.

Yeah, but “their” way is wrong.

And, it’s easy for me to say “get up and leave” because I’m facing this exact choice when I return to school from abroad, and I’m leaning heavily towards driving an hour to the EF parish. The parish higher-ups are stubborn, and liberal. There’s no way around it until the current leadership is removed, something which won’t happen in the next year (I graduate in 2010).

 

[Brickmaker]

There are no parties or flowers allowed during Lent. There are no “parties” allowed in my church at any time. But nothing forbids a celebration at another venue

It is only six weeks from Ash Wednesday to Easter Sunday. They can be baptized on Easter Sunday. Six weeks is hardly ‘a few’ and the parents have a canonical right to have their child baptized as soon as possible after birth.

 

[theistgal]

What? There is no problem hearing confessions during the Triduum.

adoremus.org/0503CDW-Confession.html

Peace

Tim

Well, I’m in the Byzantine Catholic Church and we were also told Wednesday was the last day for confessions before the Triduum. I figured it’s because the priest was going to be super busy during that time, what with the veritable waterfall of liturgical services about to gush over all of us.

And FWIW, we did have confession available every night, Monday through Wednesday, of Great and Holy Week. So I don’t really consider that a problem. I’m sure if I had the energy left to commit a mortal sin, after all those liturgies every night , I could just ask the priest for a private appointment.

 

[quiet52]

The OP is flaunting his “traditionalist” badge of honor quite arrogantly when he automatically labels anyone challenging him as a “liberal.”

He chose to change the words of Scripture. Whether he agrees or not with the NAB translation of Colossiand 3:1 or 1 Corinthians 5:6 (“BROTHERS AND SISTERS”), he had absolutely no right whatsoever to impose what he personally thinks is “right” or “wrong” on the congregation while performing a liturgical ministry. He overstepped the bounds of his ministry and should be chastized by his pastor. If he plans to do this again, he needs to discern whether he should continue in this ministry.

I can easily imagine myself in the shoes of one of those choir members who asked him about it after Mass. I would have noticed the omission of “and sisters” because I look at the missalette, at least before Mass. If I knew the lector, I would have at least ribbed him about it after Mass – “hey Joe, St. Paul was talking to us sisters too you know, not just you brothers…” No anger – just the same tone I’d use with a sibling who adamantly won’t add butter to the mashed potatoes – though the OP’s act would of course be much more serious, because this is God’s word, not just physical food, he’s playing around with. But if my sister started calling me names, she’d be reacting irrationally and uncharitably, just as the OP has done in this thread with regard to the two choir members.

By the way, I’m not a “liberal” – I am very orthodox in what I believe and how I practice the faith. But since I’ve challenged the OP, I guess in his eyes I’m one.

 

[BSHoop96]

My apologies to Tim, I was unclear as to where the reader restated the reading. In verse 36 “Such is our God; no other is to be compared to Him” was read as “Such is our God; no other is to be compared”.

I agree with the Church when she translated Wisdom to the pronoun “She”. It is how it was written, and how is should be read. I would have objected if the reader had changed “She” to “He” or “It”. This did not happen.

I do object to the intentional omission of masculine pronouns simply because they are masculine. It is how it was written, and how is should be read. Lest you think is an innocent mistake, this error was carried out in all seven readings. In the seventh reading, Ezek 36:28 “You shall live in the land I gave your fathers; you shall be my people, and I will be your God.” was changed to “You shall live in the land I gave your ancestors; you shall be my people, and I will be your God.” It should be read as written, no more, no less.

:banghead::banghead:

If we give up this fight, it is only a matter of time before we all hold hands during the “Our Parent”.

 

[BSHoop96]

Let me give you an example of why I am trying to do things.
Last week at the Palm Sunday Mass the sermon was skipped after the Gospel.
During Lent, Confessions are heard after Mass. Last week somone ask if Father was hearing Confessions because he wanted to go to Confession. I went and asked him. When I did he said that he was too busy because at the other Church there was a Baptism and to come on Saturday Morning. Now the Saturday morning was Holy Saturday and there are no Confessions heard from Holy Thursday through Holy Saturday.
I know scheduels are tight but is this how we treat a Sacrament?

Yes, is this how we treat them indeed???

During the year after Mass he will hear Confessions if you ask him. It is hard to go during the week to him cause of work. I usually go to a church nearby at work. I am thankful of that.

No regularly scheduled time offered???

There is a time while I in Confession with him and a elderly lady just walked in in the middle of Confession and was asking Fr. to visit some one in a hospital. He said that he only visits peopel in a a “certian hospital”.

Oh please tell me this is not true. Maybe she didn’t know there was a confession taking place.

To Bless homes Bless chalk with a prayer card is avaliable to do 20+C+M+B+09 above your doorway yourself. I am thankful we know a Priest who will come and persaonaly bless our house, car and all our rooms himself.
Also there are times during holydays where there is no homily.

I am in no way trying to put down our Pastor. I do like him. He knows where I am coming from I have given him a Mass Abuses questions and answers in the past. This way back when I was starting to get into defending my Faith. I asked him if he read it and he said “It was intresting.” I have also asked to get a Novena to St. Anne started. He said that “we have enough going on.”

He knows where I am coming from. We do get into discussions about the Pope, Pro Life, politics, apologetics and the Tridentine Mass. I admit I did not talk to him about “Liturgical Abuses”.

I had talked about the Ruberics to our privous Sacristan. **She said, We do not have to listen to Rome and We do not need Latin at the Mass." **We aslo got into it about holding hands during the “Our Father” and the Caramastic movement.



During on of my conversations with my current Sacristan. I** mention about the Sacralurum he mention that we do not have a key for it in years and there are some rules we do not have to follow. **



Recently I have had the opertunity to start to build a bridge with our current Sacristan, by giving him some of my Leaflett, Tan, Roman Catholic Press and Ignatious press catalogs. Also by talking an explaining my views so he has a better understanding of where I am comming from. He also bring communion to my Mother. Instead of trying to start a debate with him. I would like to build something good to help start something good. Also, to show I can be of some help.

Also, I have talked to one our heads of our Parish council about The Tridentine Mass and **he said that that is when the Priest “mumbles to the wall”? **Yes. he did say that. Also I asked if we could put up the Communion rail. He said “Vatican III”. Whe I try to talk to him about issues he just ignors it and walks to somone else to talk.

Good grief!!

Is this helping to see of some of the stuff that goes on. I am no way trying to put down my Parish or our Pastor and my fellow Parishners. I just want them to see what the Pope said recently about what was before VII is still sacred.

Yes, I definitely see! The laity has taken over and it sounds like with the help of the priest! Write the bishop and hope he’s not the same.

 

[Malkin71]

Yes, I definitely see! The laity has taken over and it sounds like with the help of the priest! Write the bishop and hope he’s not the same.

 

[Malkin71]

Yes, I definitely see! The laity has taken over and it sounds like with the help of the priest! Write the bishop and hope he’s not the same.

Confession’s are m-f after the Weekday morning Mass\ Communion Service and Saturday morning. If our Bishop did not chew out Dan Rooney for his over the top support for Obama, do you think he will listen? Dan Rooney has a Priest that travels with the team when they are on the road. It was in our local paper.

 

[Malkin71]

:banghead::banghead:

That is why we sould not give in.

 

[Malkin71]

The OP is flaunting his “traditionalist” badge of honor quite arrogantly when he automatically labels anyone challenging him as a “liberal.”

He chose to change the words of Scripture. Whether he agrees or not with the NAB translation of Colossiand 3:1 or 1 Corinthians 5:6 (“BROTHERS AND SISTERS”), he had absolutely no right whatsoever to impose what he personally thinks is “right” or “wrong” on the congregation while performing a liturgical ministry. He overstepped the bounds of his ministry and should be chastized by his pastor. If he plans to do this again, he needs to discern whether he should continue in this ministry.

I can easily imagine myself in the shoes of one of those choir members who asked him about it after Mass. I would have noticed the omission of “and sisters” because I look at the missalette, at least before Mass. If I knew the lector, I would have at least ribbed him about it after Mass – “hey Joe, St. Paul was talking to us sisters too you know, not just you brothers…” No anger – just the same tone I’d use with a sibling who adamantly won’t add butter to the mashed potatoes – though the OP’s act would of course be much more serious, because this is God’s word, not just physical food, he’s playing around with. But if my sister started calling me names, she’d be reacting irrationally and uncharitably, just as the OP has done in this thread with regard to the two choir members.

By the way, I’m not a “liberal” – I am very orthodox in what I believe and how I practice the faith. But since I’ve challenged the OP, I guess in his eyes I’m one.

No I am not “flauntling my Traditionlist badge with honor”. I am standing up for what I believe in. Gender inclusive language is an intrusion into the church.

Would you be happy if the whole Bible was gutted and change to be more inclusive. Should we change certain words in the creed to reflect "new awareness’? I.E. “Became man to became human” “for us men and our salvation” to for us and our salvation?

I have witness prior Priests do this. A former Priest from my parish believes things that were written before VII was stone age. I remember the “Seasonal Missalette in the early 80’s in the music section there were major changes to songs to reflect the “new awareness” e.g. Let there be peace on earth. Instead of “let me walk with my brother” is changed to let me walk with each other” and “brothers all are we” is changed to Neighbors all are we".

 

[Phemie]

Baptism is actually a more important Sacrament than Confession. You said he was not hearing Confessions because he was presiding at a Baptism. (Which would have either been an emergency baptism because of a terminal illness, or a conditional baptism for an RCIA member whose status was in doubt, since regular baptisms are not permitted during Lent.)

Of course Baptisms are permitted during Lent! Just because some parishes choose not to do them doesn’t mean they are forbidden.

 

[quiet52]

No I am not “flauntling my Traditionlist badge with honor”. I am standing up for what I believe in. Gender inclusive language is an intrusion into the church.

Would you be happy if the whole Bible was gutted and change to be more inclusive. Should we change certain words in the creed to reflect "new awareness’? I.E. “Became man to became human” “for us men and our salvation” to for us and our salvation?

There are appropriate and inappropriate ways to stand up for what we believe. You are not the Magisterium of the Church. The Lectionary used in Catholic churches within the U.S. is approved by the U.S. Bishops and by the Vatican.
Lay people who are commissioned to read the Holy Scripture during Mass are not given the authority to change any of the words. You are abusing the privilege of your ministry by not reading what you are supposed to read. When you serve in that capacity, what you believe about what is correct translation or incorrect translation is irrelevant. You need to fight your battle differently. If you were in my parish, and if I were aware of your obstinate and intentional misreading of the readings, I would report you.

The title page of this Bible shows that the book is “authorized by the Board of Trustees of the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine” and “approved by the Administrative Committee/Board of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops” and the “United States Catholic Conference.” It is published by the Catholic Book Publishing Co., New York, 1986. The Bible contains all the necessary Catholic certification: the Nihil Obstat, and the Imprimatur from the Archbishop of Washington. And, oh, yes! A letter from the Vatican, including the signature of the Pope, appears in the preface to guarantee the reliability of this Bible for Catholics.
www3.sympatico.ca/shabir.ally/new_page_19.htm

 

[Malkin71]

There are appropriate and inappropriate ways to stand up for what we believe. You are not the Magisterium of the Church. The Lectionary used in Catholic churches within the U.S. is approved by the U.S. Bishops and by the Vatican.
Lay people who are commissioned to read the Holy Scripture during Mass are not given the authority to change any of the words. You are abusing the privilege of your ministry by not reading what you are supposed to read. When you serve in that capacity, what you believe about what is correct translation or incorrect translation is irrelevant. You need to fight your battle differently. If you were in my parish, and if I were aware of your obstinate and intentional misreading of the readings, I would report you.

I’m sorry, never have I claimed to be the “Magisterium of the Church” you are making that assumption. I do not change the words of the readings.

The petitions when they are incorrectly written. I can get Church documents about the definition of the e Altar and the definition of The Holy Sacrafice of Mass.

If someone labeled Holy Communion as a wafer would you correct them?

As Catholics we are entitled to have correct translations of Holy Scripture. That is why Latin is better cause the meanings do not change over time.

Here is a link to the second reading of what I read on Sunday usccb.org/nab/bible/colossians/colossians3.htm

This is the USCCB APPROVED verision.

Please show me where is the word Brothers and Sisters mentioned? Better yet
Read the chapter before and after and show me where Brothers and Sisters are mentioned.

I read Colossians 3: 1-4.

Like I stated I DID NOT CHANGE OR MODIFY ANY OF THE WORDS OF HOLY SCRIPTURE. I READ THOSE WORDS VERBATIUM!

p.s. I am curious did you read my questions when I replied to you?

 

[tee_eff_em]

Here is a link to the second reading of what I read on Sunday usccb.org/nab/bible/colossians/colossians3.htm

Respectfully, you are mistaken.

This is the USCCB APPROVED verision.

Please show me where is the word Brothers and Sisters mentioned? Better yet
Read the chapter before and after and show me where Brothers and Sisters are mentioned.

I read Colossians 3: 1-4.

That is not a link to the USCCB APPROVED reading. That is a link to the scripture cited by the day’s reading from the Lectionary.

This is a link to the *USCCB APPROVED reading *of the day usccb.org/nab/readings/041209.shtml#reading2 – Do you see the words “Brothers and sisters”? Those are the words you ought to have read.

The Lectionary, which is to be read from at Mass, is not the same as the Bible. This is also from the USCCB (with

emphasis

added):

1. What’s the difference between a Bible and a Lectionary?

A Lectionary is composed of the readings and the responsorial psalm assigned for each Mass of the year (Sundays, weekdays, and special occasions). The readings are divided by the day or the theme (baptism, marriage, vocations, etc.) rather than according to the books of the Bible.

Introductions and conclusions have been added to each reading.

Not all of the Bible is included in the Lectionary.

To repeat, with all due respect: It is mistaken to alter the words of the approved texts (whether of the Sacramentary or the Lectionary) for the Mass.

tee

 

[Ockham]

If more people stood up for correct Church teaching and confronted the liberal or modernist challenge in their parish we’d still have altar rails. The "spirit of Vatican II’ has been wrongly misinterpreted to push their hidden agenda and righting the ship will not be painless. The laity need to support their pastor, but have a duty to speak out against liturgical abuses. If people had done so in Germany during the 16th century, Luther may not have started his protest.

 

[Orogeny]

If more people stood up for correct Church teaching and confronted the liberal or modernist challenge in their parish we’d still have altar rails.

Interesting. There were no altar rails at St. Peter’s when I attended a Papal Mass a couple of years ago. I never really considered the Pope to be liberal.

Peace

Tim