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davetv
Guest
For those that live in a diocese that have restored the order of the sacraments of initiation (Baptism, Confirmation, then Eucharist), what has been the effect on Religious Education and evangelization?
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EnglishTeacher
Guest
We have not done it, but I am curious: at what ages are Confirmation and First Communion done when the original order is restored? Are they still separated by a number of years, or are Confirmation and First Eucharist done at the same time?
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davetv
Guest
Usually done at the same time around the age of reason.
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pianistclare
Guest
We do not do it here and our Archbishop has said we never will.
I am SO GLAD.
Restored order literally destroys Religious Ed programs.
Our children need to STAY in Formation, not have an excuse to leave.
I am SO GLAD.
Restored order literally destroys Religious Ed programs.
Our children need to STAY in Formation, not have an excuse to leave.
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Magdalene
Guest
Has it destroyed religious ed programs at places where they have done it? I didn’t know that this was being done anywhere.
I grew up in a protestant church, we didn’t have confirmation or classes for 1st communion. No classes were required to fully participate in the church. But every Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night, all of the classes for every age range were full. Everyone participated in everything from pre-school to young at heart.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t require sacramental prep… we definitely should! But if there could be a kind of culture shift in our parishes, and we focused on how important religious education is for every year, not just sacramental prep years, then restoring the order wouldn’t be so bad. Easier said than done, I know.
I grew up in a protestant church, we didn’t have confirmation or classes for 1st communion. No classes were required to fully participate in the church. But every Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night, all of the classes for every age range were full. Everyone participated in everything from pre-school to young at heart.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t require sacramental prep… we definitely should! But if there could be a kind of culture shift in our parishes, and we focused on how important religious education is for every year, not just sacramental prep years, then restoring the order wouldn’t be so bad. Easier said than done, I know.
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davetv
Guest
Do you have proof of that?
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dochawk
Guest
Many/most Eastern Catholic churches have restored not just the order, but the timing, so Baptism/Chrysmation/Eucharist together as an infant.
We still have “ECF” (Eastern Christian Formation), typically twice a month after liturgy through high school. Far higher attendance than the typical RCC between “sacrament mill” classes. Almost all will attend.
“Typical” for a confirmation class student around here at theRC parishes is not having been to church since first Communion . . .
hawk
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babochka
Guest
It seems that it has been better implemented in some places than in others, or perhaps some bishops are just more committed to the process than others and willing to work through the bumps.
http://m.ncregister.com/daily-news/...e-to-restore-order-of-sacraments#.Wsb1EiVlA0M
http://m.ncregister.com/daily-news/...e-to-restore-order-of-sacraments#.Wsb1EiVlA0M
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davetv
Guest
Religious Education Director might ACTUALLY have to work 
I’m half kidding but, I believe having the “reward” of a sacrament has caused a lazy effort of evangelization and catechesis.
I’m half kidding but, I believe having the “reward” of a sacrament has caused a lazy effort of evangelization and catechesis.
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I_trust
Guest
I have taught religion at my parish for decades.
I just finished teaching Confirmation classes for this year for 15-16 year-olds.
I find the argument that delaying Confirmation until high school so as to keep kids in religious education class less than compelling. These kids are dealing with pressure to conform to our society’s immoral stands on sexuality, porn, abortion, divorce, abortion etc. before they even reach high school.
I believe they would greatly benefit by receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit BEFORE having to deal with these pressures.
This is a Sacrament meant to impart grace from God to live a Christian life.
Confirmation is not a carrot to wave in front of the parents to keep their kids in religion class.
I just finished teaching Confirmation classes for this year for 15-16 year-olds.
I find the argument that delaying Confirmation until high school so as to keep kids in religious education class less than compelling. These kids are dealing with pressure to conform to our society’s immoral stands on sexuality, porn, abortion, divorce, abortion etc. before they even reach high school.
I believe they would greatly benefit by receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit BEFORE having to deal with these pressures.
This is a Sacrament meant to impart grace from God to live a Christian life.
Confirmation is not a carrot to wave in front of the parents to keep their kids in religion class.
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babochka
Guest
I don’t think it is a matter of laziness at all and your comment is an insult to hardworking DREs and catechists everywhere.Religious Education Director might ACTUALLY have to work
I’m half kidding but, I believe having the “reward” of a sacrament has caused a lazy effort of evangelization and catechesis.
The problem is much deeper and successfully changing the model of religious education and faith formation will require a cultural shift in families and parishes alike. I personally think it can and should be done.
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HeDa
Guest
I think one of the major issues comes down to the lack of continued learning about the faith and getting to know Christ more regardless of how old people are when they receive the Sacrament of Confirmation.
I see this, both with those who were raised Catholic in a very Catholic country (ie laws more in harmony with the Catholic faith) and those raised as Catholics in a more secular, “maybe protestant thinking” country. I have discovered as a convert, that I have a much, much deeper understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches, believes and professes than those who are Catholics since birth basically. I am still offered to go to classes for converts (about 6-8 meeting/year) 4 years after being received into the Church. This is because the parish realises that it is very important with continued faith formation. There are other opportunities for Catholics, as well as other people interested in the Catholic faith, to learn more in the parish.
There are so many things happening in our societies today that need to be addressed from a faith perspective. IVF, gender, sexuality and relationships, “What is a family?”, “What is love?”, “Who is the triune God?” and maybe the most important “Who is the human being?” and not “What is a human being?”. These are just some of the questions that we, as Catholics, need to learn more about.
I see this, both with those who were raised Catholic in a very Catholic country (ie laws more in harmony with the Catholic faith) and those raised as Catholics in a more secular, “maybe protestant thinking” country. I have discovered as a convert, that I have a much, much deeper understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches, believes and professes than those who are Catholics since birth basically. I am still offered to go to classes for converts (about 6-8 meeting/year) 4 years after being received into the Church. This is because the parish realises that it is very important with continued faith formation. There are other opportunities for Catholics, as well as other people interested in the Catholic faith, to learn more in the parish.
There are so many things happening in our societies today that need to be addressed from a faith perspective. IVF, gender, sexuality and relationships, “What is a family?”, “What is love?”, “Who is the triune God?” and maybe the most important “Who is the human being?” and not “What is a human being?”. These are just some of the questions that we, as Catholics, need to learn more about.
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commenter
Guest
I was confirmed in 1961, when all the kids were in 6th or 7th grades. A few years later in my diocese it was moved to high school, my kids confirmed as juniors. Any one have any idea why it was moved later?
My own preference is that people should have at least 2 years of college, or 2 years work experience or military before being confirmed. We did in fact receive the Holy Spirit in baptism, but confirmation should be a totally voluntary decision on the person’s part, by someone who has some idea of the challenges, as to why confirmation is valuable.
In high school teens are somewhat under their parents’ authority, and often are forced to go through a ceremony just to satisfy their parents. I think most 20 year olds would skip the ceremony at this minimum age, but some of the skippers would choose to make it later, and it would mean a lot more to them.
My own preference is that people should have at least 2 years of college, or 2 years work experience or military before being confirmed. We did in fact receive the Holy Spirit in baptism, but confirmation should be a totally voluntary decision on the person’s part, by someone who has some idea of the challenges, as to why confirmation is valuable.
In high school teens are somewhat under their parents’ authority, and often are forced to go through a ceremony just to satisfy their parents. I think most 20 year olds would skip the ceremony at this minimum age, but some of the skippers would choose to make it later, and it would mean a lot more to them.
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commenter
Guest
The Eastern Catholic churches in my area are very good. Usually there is one priest, who has at most few DOZEN families, who all know each other. It is a very close knit community.pianistclare:
Many/most Eastern Catholic churches have restored not just the order, but the timing, so Baptism/Chrysmation/Eucharist together as an infant.
We still have “ECF” (Eastern Christian Formation), typically twice a month after liturgy through high school. Far higher attendance than the typical RCC between “sacrament mill” classes. Almost all will attend.
“Typical” for a confirmation class student around here at theRC parishes is not having been to church since first Communion . . .
hawk
God bless them. Their experience is valid in situations similar to theirs, not minimizing them in any way. Obviously there are other factors here that are unrelated to order and timing of sacraments.
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davetv
Guest
The “lazy” comment wasn’t directed to DRE’s but to the church at large. I was an DRE for a number of years and know they work hard. The problem is sacramental prep tends to become the only thing done. “Parkinson’s law” takes effect and evangelization and ongoing catechisis just never happens. Our Lord said “go an make disciples” not “go and make a life long sacrament of initiation program for cradle Catholics.” My hypothesis is that the life of a parish would be inriched with a DRE who could focus on such things, but I’d like to hear the point of view of those that have lived through the change, because I could be wrong, and would like to know either way.
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pianistclare
Guest
I’m a former DRE of nearly 20 years. I don’t need proof. Have seen it.
Parents do not bring/enroll their children in Formation unless their perceive they “get” something or “need” something.
Honestly, I will never understand the “lets get this over with” mentality.
In Biblical times, it was done all at once because nearly everyone was a convert, and in RCIA, that’s what we do everything all at once. It was imperative.
Today, kids need instruction, conscience and faith formation which they do not receive at home.
Yeah, parents are the first teachers of the faith. But the parents are woefully uninformed or misinformed on the teachings of the Catholic church.
They are not handing down much more, than “the Church says you’ve got to have this or that”.
Seen it all to many times.
Kids who know zero rote prayers, don’t know the parts of the Mass, don’t know who “that little guy on the cross is”. But they want that First Communion and the party that goes with it and the pictures.
I’m not kidding.
Kids today more than ever…need to be in classes. Teens especially, need to be in classes.
If we return to the restored order, parishes will save money, but we will lose members and souls.
Because the media is catechizing our children. And they are relentless.
We need to fight with everything we have for our children and our faith.
The kids that go through a high school Confirmation program tend to STAY in classes afterward, and end up being very involved in community service, volunteer with their parish, visit nursing homes, feed the hungry with their families on weekends, attend Catholic Universities. Talk about a great way to win vocations. Nobody wants to become a priest if they don’t actually know one.
Sure there are families that wouldn’t miss Mass for the world, the homeschoolers, etc.
But they are very few. Vocal, but very few.
ETA: I take GREAT offense to the notion that we don’t do more than a Sacramental prep program. It’s attitudes like yours that make me glad I’m back to Music and Liturgy in a parish.
Parents do not bring/enroll their children in Formation unless their perceive they “get” something or “need” something.
Honestly, I will never understand the “lets get this over with” mentality.
In Biblical times, it was done all at once because nearly everyone was a convert, and in RCIA, that’s what we do everything all at once. It was imperative.
Today, kids need instruction, conscience and faith formation which they do not receive at home.
Yeah, parents are the first teachers of the faith. But the parents are woefully uninformed or misinformed on the teachings of the Catholic church.
They are not handing down much more, than “the Church says you’ve got to have this or that”.
Seen it all to many times.
Kids who know zero rote prayers, don’t know the parts of the Mass, don’t know who “that little guy on the cross is”. But they want that First Communion and the party that goes with it and the pictures.
I’m not kidding.
Kids today more than ever…need to be in classes. Teens especially, need to be in classes.
If we return to the restored order, parishes will save money, but we will lose members and souls.
Because the media is catechizing our children. And they are relentless.
We need to fight with everything we have for our children and our faith.
The kids that go through a high school Confirmation program tend to STAY in classes afterward, and end up being very involved in community service, volunteer with their parish, visit nursing homes, feed the hungry with their families on weekends, attend Catholic Universities. Talk about a great way to win vocations. Nobody wants to become a priest if they don’t actually know one.
Sure there are families that wouldn’t miss Mass for the world, the homeschoolers, etc.
But they are very few. Vocal, but very few.
ETA: I take GREAT offense to the notion that we don’t do more than a Sacramental prep program. It’s attitudes like yours that make me glad I’m back to Music and Liturgy in a parish.
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Magdalene
Guest
If parents won’t bring their kids to classes unless they perceive that they “get something”, then that is a problem that needs to be fixed. I don’t know if the best answer is to just continue having confirmation later, hoping those kids who haven’t been to a religious ed class since 2nd grade will show up.
I think one way to encourage parents to bring their children to religious formation would be to offer more formation for parents. I think part of why it worked so well in my Protestant Church growing up was because there was something for everyone. If the kids were meeting, so were the teens, and the adults.
And I think we’re all in agreement here about the importance of religious formation! We’re not saying there should be less classes, really, we’re saying there should be more. We just don’t think having confirmation later is what will help them stay. It might be the sacramental prep mentality that makes all of the other years seem unimportant to both kids and parents.
And I agree… I’m so thankful for all of the people who work so hard on religious formation!! I think they do an amazing job. This is not a problem one person can fix, it’s a culture shift. A lot of it lies with the parents, and with more people in the parish stepping up to help out.
I think one way to encourage parents to bring their children to religious formation would be to offer more formation for parents. I think part of why it worked so well in my Protestant Church growing up was because there was something for everyone. If the kids were meeting, so were the teens, and the adults.
And I think we’re all in agreement here about the importance of religious formation! We’re not saying there should be less classes, really, we’re saying there should be more. We just don’t think having confirmation later is what will help them stay. It might be the sacramental prep mentality that makes all of the other years seem unimportant to both kids and parents.
And I agree… I’m so thankful for all of the people who work so hard on religious formation!! I think they do an amazing job. This is not a problem one person can fix, it’s a culture shift. A lot of it lies with the parents, and with more people in the parish stepping up to help out.
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Magdalene
Guest
I think this is so important.
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Jeanne_S
Guest
Our Diocese started this restored order a few years ago.They are still in the process of confirming the kids in high school of which my granddaughter is one,She is a freshman and I believe her group is the last one to be confirmed at this age.
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Jeanne_S
Guest
This is exactly my understanding as well re the change.These children need the armor of the Holy Spirt to help them resist the lures and temptations they face on a daily basis.
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