Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

[benedictus2]

What is happening is that you are all skirting around the issues. Noone has even attempted to furnish PROOF that any of the teachings/doctrines/dogmas of the Catholic are untrue. Methinks it is because this is not possible.

And you know it!

So you resort to playing games.

You think that is clever?

No Cinette, It is not clever. But as in most games, it’s fun. If only they will actually read our post and think about it before firing away with a post. **Henning **seems to be the only one who thinks logically. Okay probably due to being in RCIA.

 

[Valke2]

Does the Church teach that the covenant of circumcision is everlasting?

Does the Church teach that God tested Abraham or does it teach that God tests no one?

 

[fbl9]

The challenge was to name one thing the Catholic chuch teaches that is against scripture.

However, this one might be doctrine: Does the Church teach that God is omnipotent?

my humble apologies
i had to go and reread the OP…again my apologies .
.have fun ,later… .

 

[benedictus2]

there is no DOCTRINE regarding this

If only people would read Church teaching before trying to debunk them.

What is happening here is like this: “Well your Mom worked in a brothel for two years till she married your dad” when your Mom was actually a doctor all her life.

It would be helpful to this thread if those trying to meet ag_not’s challenge would actually read what the Church teaches first then go on from there.

Ladies and Gentlemen, you are being asked to prove that a Church doctrine is contrary to Scripture. So if you are gong to show that, you should study that particular Church teaching first and know what it REALLY IS ALL ABOUT.

Don’t you think that is a reasonable request?

You are using us to do your legwork for you.

 

[Ag_not]

The challenge was to name one thing the Catholic chuch teaches that is against scripture.

However, this one might be doctrine: Does the Church teach that God is omnipotent?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Paragraph 3. The Almighty
268
Of all the divine attributes, only God’s omnipotence is named in the Creed: to confess this power has great bearing on our lives. We believe that his might is universal, for God who created everything also rules everything and can do everything. God’s power is loving, for he is our Father, and mysterious, for only faith can discern it when it "is made perfect in weakness."103
"He does whatever he pleases"104
269
The Holy Scriptures repeatedly confess the universal power of God. He is called the “Mighty One of Jacob,” the “LORD of hosts,” the “strong and mighty” one. If God is almighty “in heaven and on earth,” it is because he made them.105 Nothing is impossible with God, who disposes his works according to his will.106 He is the Lord of the universe, whose order he established and which remains wholly subject to him and at his disposal. He is master of history, governing hearts and events in keeping with his will: "It is always in your power to show great strength, and who can withstand the strength of your arm?"107

And to help you out with the next question I predict you’re about to ask

The mystery of God’s apparent powerlessness

272
Faith in God the Father Almighty can be put to the test by the experience of evil and suffering. God can sometimes seem to be absent and incapable of stopping evil. But in the most mysterious way God the Father has revealed his almighty power in the voluntary humiliation and Resurrection of his Son, by which he conquered evil. Christ crucified is thus "the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."111 It is in Christ’s Resurrection and exaltation that the Father has shown forth "the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe."112

 

[benedictus2]

Hisalone

again you continue avoiding Biblical proof that Mary was free of sin because you can not refute it with any credible response. Why not just say you can’t refute the verses presented?

Asking for too much again, Twb.

Be patient. It will all come in time. Just not yet.
You might not even see it. Maybe on another thread. May be he won’t even post it.

But sure as I am posting now, enlightenment will come.
Because we are all praying for each other.
Because He loves God, but God loves him so very much more.

 

[Matariel]

Martin777, you didn’t respond to #682…

 

[Valke2]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Paragraph 3. The Almighty
268
Of all the divine attributes, only God’s omnipotence is named in the Creed: to confess this power has great bearing on our lives. We believe that his might is universal, for God who created everything also rules everything and can do everything. God’s power is loving, for he is our Father, and mysterious, for only faith can discern it when it "is made perfect in weakness."103
"He does whatever he pleases"104
269
The Holy Scriptures repeatedly confess the universal power of God. He is called the “Mighty One of Jacob,” the “LORD of hosts,” the “strong and mighty” one. If God is almighty “in heaven and on earth,” it is because he made them.105 Nothing is impossible with God, who disposes his works according to his will.106 He is the Lord of the universe, whose order he established and which remains wholly subject to him and at his disposal. He is master of history, governing hearts and events in keeping with his will: "It is always in your power to show great strength, and who can withstand the strength of your arm?"107

And to help you out with the next question I predict you’re about to ask

The mystery of God’s apparent powerlessness

272
Faith in God the Father Almighty can be put to the test by the experience of evil and suffering. God can sometimes seem to be absent and incapable of stopping evil. But in the most mysterious way God the Father has revealed his almighty power in the voluntary humiliation and Resurrection of his Son, by which he conquered evil. Christ crucified is thus "the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."111 It is in Christ’s Resurrection and exaltation that the Father has shown forth "the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe."112

Your answer seems to be “yes” and “no”. It is not that we sometimes feel that God is not all powerful. It is that teaching that God is all powerful is contrary to scripture, which is the point of this game. Specifically, God’s omnipotence is contradictory to Judges 1:19:
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

 

[benedictus2]

Years ago when my husband and I were still revolutionaries and communist sympathizers living in a country that had undergone radical political change, we knew some very brave men. They were communists and would visit my parents-in-law frequently as they were also sympathizers. These men had strong moral consciences and had suffered years of imprisonment in solitary confinement and had experienced torture. I am thinking of two men in particular. They were both atheists and I daresay died that way.

I was present one day when one of them was visiting my father-in-law and there was a discussion regarding the new political regime which had strong Marxist leanings. We were all critical of measures that had been taken and how society had changed. We saw a lot of turncoats – people who in the old regime had been anti-Marxists and who now acted as if they had invented it.

My Father-in-law then said, “And to think that I was mistaken! To think that I had been wrong all those years!” I looked at Egidio, our communist friend and suddenly realized that he would never talk like that with his other friends; he would never have the courage to admit that he had been wrong! And I knew why and it made me sad. Egidio would not be able to meet with his communist friends with whom he had met for coffee at the Café and talk politics. He would have to abandon his friends. So, he limited himself rather than become isolated. He knew that he could criticize the regime with my parents-in-law but when he was with his other friends he would have to pretend to be someone who he no longer really was. Egidio had once spent 56 days in a dark cupboard under some stairs in solitary confinement. People looked up to him for his bravery because he never talked, he never yielded.

But now he would be imprisoned for the rest of his life – he would be a prisoner of the mind.

I let you figure out why I am bringing this up.
* *

Wow! That’s very powerful!

Okay, here’s my best shot at it.

Scott and Kimberley Hahn, Thomas Howard, Stephen Ray and other converts agonized at the thought of losing their protestant friends should they cross the Tiber when they are seeing more and more clearly how right the Church is and how wrong they have been.
As a matter of fact, they were not far off wrong either. They lost jobs and friends. Scott was subjected to enormous vitriol on one internet site.

But humility and courage triumphed. Unlike Egidio.

Do I get a medal for that or am I way off the mark?:bounce:

Love this : But now he would be imprisoned for the rest of his life – he would be a prisoner of the mind.

Or we can be a prisoner of our prejudices, thereby stopping us from seeing the light that others are throwing on our path.

But, God’s ways are mysterious. He is a God of love and a God of surprises. Hearts melt, minds get opened.

Just you wait.

 

[Ag_not]

…Specifically, God’s omnipotence is contradictory to Judges 1:19:
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Thank you for bringing a new piece of Scripture to my attention. I haven’t read Judges. While I look up the references, can I ask a question of you? A fellow jewish contributor referred to the New testiment as a piece of fiction like Harry Potter and stated they had not the slightest interest in it, as it was utterly irrelevant. Is that your view too? Now, where’s my bible…

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Benedictus2,

What Internet site was Scott Hahn attacked on when he converted? My understanding was that he converted in the mid 1980s, which was 15 years before blogging.

 

[Valke2]

Thank you for bringing a new piece of Scripture to my attention. I haven’t read Judges. While I look up the references, can I ask a question of you? A fellow jewish contributor referred to the New testiment as a piece of fiction like Harry Potter and stated they had not the slightest interest in it, as it was utterly irrelevant. Is that your view too? Now, where’s my bible…

I think that different people find God in different ways. The metaphor I like to use is the old city of Jerusalem, which has 8 different gates to the city. Each gate has its own story and each one leads to Jerusalem.

 

[benedictus2]

Benedictus2,

What Internet site was Scott Hahn attacked on when he converted? My understanding was that he converted in the mid 1980s, which was 15 years before blogging.

Can’t remember now. I only found out about Scott Hahn two years ago so I googled him and found his site and others with his testimony on it and then there was this one site where the guy said something like he has sold himself to Satan and God have mercy on his soul. It said he was seeking the limelight and that he was looking for some sort of validation. It was pretty bad I stopped reading.

I thought wow, the hatred on that article was palpable. I’ll see if I can find it again. If you google Scott Hahn and go through the links you might find it quicker. There might even be others which I have not seen.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Can’t remember now. I only found out about Scott Hahn two years ago so I googled him and found his site and others with his testimony on it and then there was this one site where the guy said something like he has sold himself to Satan and God have mercy on his soul. It said he was seeking the limelight and that he was looking for some sort of validation. It was pretty bad I stopped reading.

I thought wow, the hatred on that article was palpable. I’ll see if I can find it again. If you google Scott Hahn and go through the links you might find it quicker. There might even be others which I have not seen.

In that case, then Scott Hahn was not just attacked after he converted, he is still being attacked today, about 20 years later. He is also not just attacked by Protestants, but he is not liked by some Catholics who think he is too “evangelical.”

I have two of Scott’s books, Rome Sweet Home, and Hail, Holy Queen, the Mother of God in the Word of God. Neither one is a scholary work, which I was expecting. They are both very light reading.

In Rome Sweet Home, Scott describes his conversion process. He was a brilliant Protestant scholar who had a bright career as a Presbyterian minister and his wife was very eager to go into ministry with him. He was very anti-Catholic. Not tolerant of it at all. The journey to Catholicism began for him when his wife did a study of birth control and came to the conclusion it was immoral. The second piece that led him on that journey was understanding the “faith alone” doctrine is explicity denied by Scripture. And then finally, he had a student who asked him to show where in the Bible Sola Scriptura is taught. He thought the question was ridiculous, but as he dug into the question, his whole mindset changed, and after a few years of intensive study he converted.

His wife came very close to divorcing him and he lost all means of supporting himself. It was an extreme challenge for him; far from any sell out.

 

[Cinette]

God can do anything He wants. We all know that. Mary was surely blessed. So were and are a lot of other people. Jesus said that there was no one born of women greater than John the Baptist, but that the least in the kingdom is greater than him. Frankly if the RCC wants to belive Mary was sinless, have at it. It simply is whimsical and less supported by scripture than it’s opposite.

Whimsical! I like that word.

You know Martin I can see your joy and intensity in your Faith and I thank God for people like you. There are times when I want to just hug every Christian believer because you are one of us! Us against the secular world.

I think of what Jesus said about being “like little children” and there is a passage somewhere about the wisest, most intelligent human being is nothing compared to God’s wisdom… something like that. So if you look at your Faith you have to remember that you have to sometimes just believe. Like St Augustine said, *" Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand." *

About whimsical. I would like to know what you think of our Blessed Mother’s apparitions at Lourdes, Fatima and Guadaloupe? The tremendous witness that was and its fruit.

Also Martin - if you love your Mother, surely you will also love Jesus’ Mother too? Huh?:yup: :ehh:

 

[benedictus2]

Also Martin - if you love your Mother, surely you will also love Jesus’ Mother too? Huh?:yup: :ehh:

Hi Martin,

A propos Cinette statement above.

Why don’t you take David McDonald’s challenge to pray for a month asking Jesus about his mother. You know ask Him truly to show you what his mother is really like. Whether we got it all wrong regarding his Mom.

 

[Cinette]

Can’t remember now. I only found out about Scott Hahn two years ago so I googled him and found his site and others with his testimony on it and then there was this one site where the guy said something like he has sold himself to Satan and God have mercy on his soul. It said he was seeking the limelight and that he was looking for some sort of validation. It was pretty bad I stopped reading.

I thought wow, the hatred on that article was palpable. I’ll see if I can find it again. If you google Scott Hahn and go through the links you might find it quicker. There might even be others which I have not seen.

I have read several books by Hahn and watched many videos.

His enthusiasm about his Faith is palpable. His conversion story is wonderful and so is that of his wife Kimberley. It is so obvious that after more than 20 years as a Catholic Scott Hahn and his family continue to be excited about the Church. How can anyone say that he seeks the limelight! Only someone who is envious!

He is bright and innovative and has humour. His book “Hail Holy Queen” is beautiful and simple and I am going to read it for the 3rd time!

Bless you
Cinette

 

[rinnie]

Does the Church teach that God changes His mind or that God doesn’t change his mind?

Does the Church teach that everything on land was destroyed in the Flood or that there were giants on land after the Flood?

Does the Church teach that there were many languages spoken before the tower of Babel or that there was only one language spoken before the tower of Babel?

I don’t know about all church’s Valke but the Catholic Church teaches the true word of God. The RCC does not contradict the word of GOD. That is the true God Jesus Christ.

In our Church Jesus Christ did not change scripture he fullfilled It. God Bless!

 

[benedictus2]

In that case, then Scott Hahn was not just attacked after he converted, he is still being attacked today, about 20 years later. He is also not just attacked by Protestants, but he is not liked by some Catholics who think he is too “evangelical.”

I have two of Scott’s books, Rome Sweet Home, and Hail, Holy Queen, the Mother of God in the Word of God. Neither one is a scholary work, which I was expecting. They are both very light reading.

In Rome Sweet Home, Scott describes his conversion process. He was a brilliant Protestant scholar who had a bright career as a Presbyterian minister and his wife was very eager to go into ministry with him. He was very anti-Catholic. Not tolerant of it at all. The journey to Catholicism began for him when his wife did a study of birth control and came to the conclusion it was immoral. The second piece that led him on that journey was understanding the “faith alone” doctrine is explicity denied by Scripture. And then finally, he had a student who asked him to show where in the Bible Sola Scriptura is taught. He thought the question was ridiculous, but as he dug into the question, his whole mindset changed, and after a few years of intensive study he converted.

His wife came very close to divorcing him and he lost all means of supporting himself. It was an extreme challenge for him; far from any sell out.

I have Rome Sweet Home too. His Lamb’s Supper and A Father Who Keeps His Promise is meatier with a lot of insights I have not come across before. HIs writing style caters for all I think because he wants to reach a broader spectrum. My protestant friend liked him very much compared to say Michael Casey OCSO which he said was too heavy.

 

[Cinette]

I think that different people find God in different ways. The metaphor I like to use is the old city of Jerusalem, which has 8 different gates to the city. Each gate has its own story and each one leads to Jerusalem.

Jewish people are special and always will be. God knew what he was doing when he chose the Jews.

My husband was an atheist and was converted by a Jew (Gerald Schroeder - Genisis and the Big Bang, The Hidden Face of God). There were also miracles taking place in our lives at the time but when my husband saw the announcement in the paper that there would be a lecture by Schroeder (and then there we were among all the Jews and their little “hats” - what an evening!)

Then because of that miracle of faith I became interested in Jews and read two books on Jewish conversion to the CC. “Bread from Heaven” and more recently “Honey from the Rock”. I know that we should not be envious but when the Jews give an account of their conversion and especially at the moment of their baptism I cannot suppress a feeling of envy because there is a sense of “completion” that is wonderful and miraculous. The conversion of Rabbi Zolli comes to mind - amazing!

So! Yes, I love the Jews. I thank God for them.