Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

[Angels_Unaware]

And I think iyou guys hear and believe exactly what you want to hear and believe. And I think if Jesus Himself came and said, “Guys, please, my Word tells you all the basics you need to know about prayer. Don’t pray to Mary. Pray directly to me. I told you you’ll receive if you ask in my Name.”…then you guys would walk away from there and be thankful that your traditions prevent you from having to deal with such interference.

No one has ever dealt with my scriptures on ‘saint’ as the NT depicts it. It has nothing to do with a bunch of guys that got voted on! I am a saint in the full biblical sense of the word, and so are you, IF you have been born of His Spirit.

So we haven’t been very impressed!

Well, that’s NOT fair. If you truly wish to know the truth, and are not just here to convince everyone else that they “don’t understand the Bible”, then I would challenge you to watch the debate between (help me out here if I get the people wrong) Jimmy Akin and James White. There are people who can articulate both the Protestant and Catholic positions much better than I can, and with much more clarity than can be demonstrated by an Internet thread. Here’s a hint- it is nothing like the debates between Mormons and Protestants. There are real debatable issues. I think that is a suprise to many Protestants who have a very narrow religious education.

One thing I noticed just scanning this thread, which is very important about Purgatory.

I can tell you, Martin, you aren’t understanding it at all. You’re very confused on the concept. Purgatory does not deny the total and complete atonement of Christ for sins.

Here is an analogy. A murderer repents. They are cleansed and redeemed when they repent. At that point, they can enter heaven when they die. But, will the doors of the jail cell open? No. Because there is still temporal consequences for sin.

Now take this concept one step forward. The murderer repents. They can enter heaven. However, there is something still twisted within their souls that caused the murder in the first place. A tendency to sin. A need for purification of the mind and the emotions. THIS is purged before they enter into heaven, and THAT is purgatory. Purgatory has nothing to do with atonement for sins, it is dealing with the consequences of sin.

 

[Martin777]

Dear newest sister of mine in Christ, Agi,
Many people outside of the Catholic Church are completely invested in the faith they were raised in. It is very difficult for a person to have to hear let alone accept that the faith in God they had only known was not the true Faith. In truth, I feel for these people who face this and truly commend those who are open hearted enough to go through learning the Truth. They often stand to loose their relationships with family and or friends making that choice even though they eventually realize how beautiful it can be to have a full relationship with Jesus in all He offers us. But the Catholic Church stands strong on the true teachings and the True Word of God so you can look but you will never find that one conflict they all hope they can find to justify belonging to a faith outside the CC. But it was a real good topic to get the communication flowing and thank you very much. I am anxious to hear how you enjoy your first Christmas….

I pray that some day, before it is too late, you will understand what millions the world over have discovered about the atonement, the new birth, the assurance of salvation that can never be taken away from you, the real NY definition of ‘saint’, and the sufficiency of Scripture. Until then, I’m afraid you’ll be like that man Nicodemus, who went to temple three times every day, prayed like crazy, and asked Jesus, “What do you mean, ‘born again’” And you’ll wonder what all the fuss is–all the excitement and evangelism. God Bless You

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And I think iyou guys hear and believe exactly what you want to hear and believe. And I think if Jesus Himself came and said, “Guys, please, my Word tells you all the basics you need to know about prayer. Don’t pray to Mary. Pray directly to me. I told you you’ll receive if you ask in my Name.”…then you guys would walk away from there and be thankful that your traditions prevent you from having to deal with such interference.

No one has ever dealt with my scriptures on ‘saint’ as the NT depicts it. It has nothing to do with a bunch of guys that got voted on! I am a saint in the full biblical sense of the word, and so are you, IF you have been born of His Spirit.

So we haven’t been very impressed!

Well, you’re honest. You ‘think’ this about us. We could, if we desired, say exactly the same of you, Martin. Though I would rather say that it appears, from what you have posted, that you yourself likewise have ‘made up your mind’ about what you think we think, and you find it wanting.

Now if what we Catholics believe is actually wrong, Martin, then you might justly say, "You believe wrongly’ --though even here, what we ‘believe wrongly’ might not be any of the things you think are wrong!

But if what we Catholics believe is correct, Martin, then no matter how wrong **you **would think we are, you could not make the beliefs wrong. Belief does not rest on majority rule or on ‘human’ judgment.

And if you think we would walk away from Jesus for any reason, that in itself is rather unChristian of you.

What of you, Martin? What would YOU say if Jesus said to you, “Martin, dear son, your zeal for Me and My Truth is commendable, but you are and have been all wrong about my Mother and the Catholics have been right.”

I’m sure that you, Martin, would instantly obey Your Lord with joy and gladness. Why, then, would you think any of your Christian brothers and sisters would do ‘less’ than you?

 

[Martin777]

Well, that’s NOT fair. If you truly wish to know the truth, and are not just here to convince everyone else that they “don’t understand the Bible”, then I would challenge you to watch the debate between (help me out here if I get the people wrong) Jimmy Akin and James White. There are people who can articulate both the Protestant and Catholic positions much better than I can, and with much more clarity than can be demonstrated by an Internet thread. Here’s a hint- it is nothing like the debates between Mormons and Protestants. There are real debatable issues. I think that is a suprise to many Protestants who have a very narrow religious education.

One thing I noticed just scanning this thread, which is very important about Purgatory.

I can tell you, Martin, you aren’t understanding it at all. You’re very confused on the concept. Purgatory does not deny the total and complete atonement of Christ for sins.

Here is an analogy. A murderer repents. They are cleansed and redeemed when they repent. At that point, they can enter heaven when they die. But, will the doors of the jail cell open? No. Because there is still temporal consequences for sin.

Now take this concept one step forward. The murderer repents. They can enter heaven. However, there is something still twisted within their souls that caused the murder in the first place. A tendency to sin. A need for purification of the mind and the emotions. THIS is purged before they enter into heaven, and THAT is purgatory. Purgatory has nothing to do with atonement for sins, it is dealing with the consequences of sin.

I understand that. But again I think that if you see all that Scripture says about what happens to the believer at the moment of conversion, it negates the need for purgatory. We become brand new creatures, our old man died, we are grafted into Christ, in union with His Spirit, and John says when we see Him (at His return) WE WILL BE LIKE HIM, FOR WE WILL SEE HIM AS HE IS! That’s all the purification we will need. That’s what the Bible says.

 

[fbl9]

I pray that some day, before it is too late, you will understand what millions the world over have discovered about the atonement, the new birth, the assurance of salvation that can never be taken away from you, the real NY definition of ‘saint’, and the sufficiency of Scripture. Until then, I’m afraid you’ll be like that man Nicodemus, who went to temple three times every day, prayed like crazy, and asked Jesus, “What do you mean, ‘born again’” And you’ll wonder what all the fuss is–all the excitement and evangelism. God Bless You

no Martin we hope you will come to the light remember Jesus said when the blind lead the blind they both end up in the ditch…yes i do believe in assurance however i must do as Jesus comanded to do…
i have been in the nondenom church i felt so far from God there,only when i came back to His church did i know He was there…the truth is not out there it is already here in His Church,not something some man started a few yrs ago…if Martin Luther was so right why isn’t every one outside the RC Lutherans?the Holy Spirit lead him out then forgot to tell him the rest?
Martin 777 you use some very belittling remarks in your last posts…do you honestly think that will help any one?
as for Jesus coming and telling every one to leave His church;that one is way to funny
some day you will know and it will be with great sadness that you will understand the error you promote.
in a way i almost envy those outside of the Church,to me it seems they would need a even greater faith to beleive some of the things they beleive,than a catholic.
may God bless you Martin 777

 

[Ag_not]

That’s what the Bible says.

That is some of what the Bible says. Please reread the evidence given to you from Scripture, and pray. Thank you for your blessing and God Bless you too.

 

[SD_Catholic]

This is why most Christians on the planet do not pray to Mary.

Is “most” out of the ones you know on the planet? I bet the majority of the 1.1 billion Catholics have asked for her or another saint’s intercession in their prayer life atleast once… and you could throw in many from other religions as well… or perhaps we’re not in the “Christian” group you’re speaking of.

SD

 

[fbl9]

I understand that. But again I think that if you see all that Scripture says about what happens to the believer at the moment of conversion, it negates the need for purgatory. We become brand new creatures, our old man died, we are grafted into Christ, in union with His Spirit, and John says when we see Him (at His return) WE WILL BE LIKE HIM, FOR WE WILL SEE HIM AS HE IS! That’s all the purification we will need. That’s what the Bible says.

Martin777 why do you still on occassion sin?
we have made it clear upon HIS RETURN there is no need for purgatory.
are you just like Him right now?no…
when you die and are judged worthy of heaven do you think you wil be like Him?no you won’t cause you will be in His presence as a spirit only,it not until that glorious and long awaited day will any one be like HIM…

 

[rinnie]

Realcatholicgk:
That is it, They can say she is full of sin, Okay then what did she do that was so sinfull. They again can’t show us one thing. Amazing isn’t it. What happend to inocent until proven guilty.

 

[bett_ur_kidding]

i have been in the nondenom church i felt so far from God there,only when i came back to His church did i know He was there…the truth is not out there it is already here in His Church

That’s your problem. You think Christ is in your church. He needs to dwell in you.

 

[benedictus2]

in a way i almost envy those outside of the Church,to me it seems they would need a even greater faith to beleive some of the things they beleive,than a catholic.
may God bless you Martin 777

A protestant friend of mine said something similar but to the contrary. When we were discussing the Eucharist, (in a very angry tone) he said: Well, you have to have a terrribly enormous faith to believe that!

What is interesting about that comment is earlier in the discussion, he told me I did not have any faith.

Just to illustrate how their reasoning gets so twisted.

 

[bett_ur_kidding]

That is it, They can say she is full of sin, Okay then what did she do that was so sinfull. They again can’t show us one thing. Amazing isn’t it. What happend to inocent until proven guilty.

She was born.

 

[fbl9]

That’s your problem. You think Christ is in your church. He needs to dwell in you.

so He wasn’t dwelling in any body else there either sorry it’s your problem,that you can’t recognize Him in the Eucharist.

 

[benedictus2]

That’s your problem. You think Christ is in your church. He needs to dwell in you.

But He does dwell in fb19 and in you and in me and everyone else. The thing is do we manifest Him? Do we see Him manifested in others? Do we follow what He commanded us to do? Do we trust His promise is infallible?

The point of being Christian is that we may follow Christ and thereby manifest Him.

Our priest gave a very interesting homily regarding intellect and will yesterday.

Our will follows from what our intellect presents as truth.
If we believe a lie is truth, our actions will follow from that “truth”.

So it is very important that we sort out the Truth from the lie. Christ promisde the fullness of truth to His Church. He promised He will be with her for always.

How we manifest Him to the world proceeds from what we grasp as his Will.

 

[Henning]

This might be a good time for me to say a genuine and heart felt thankyou to everyone who took part in this thread. For the most part people remained civil and cordial and christian with each other (though Im SURE realcatholicgk got some sly passes by me ). I learned tons, and hope others got something from it too, and I am honestly convinced now more than ever that the Catholic Church does NOT teach Anything that contradicts the Bible.

Now, the nunchucks are packed away, thank you all, have fun till the mods come along and turn the lights out

So noone gets the prize??
by the way…what was the prize…after how many…OVER 700 POSTS ??? …oh yea…knock Ag_not out of her journey…actually sounds like a creepy prize…think I’d say no thanks to it even if I could (not that I could or anything)…that’s it for me folks…I’m outa here…

 

[benedictus2]

She was born.

Bett, I hate to say this but you are so totally ignorant (and I don’t mean that in a derogatory way) of the doctrine of the Immaculate conception.

There have been several posts on the Immaculate Conception here so please read them first.

“She was born” is a really un-intelligient comment this far in the thread. If you had said that at the beginning, fair enough. But hundreds of posts later when this was already addressed?

Mind you I have been guilty of that too because I miss a lot of arguements and rebuttals as well, so I should just leave it at this: READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS.

If anyone has the time to go through the posts dealing with this topic, please feel free to enumerate them in a single post to help out Bett.

 

[bett_ur_kidding]

so He wasn’t dwelling in any body else

Are you certain?

 

[Hisalone]

So noone gets the prize??
by the way…what was the prize…after how many…OVER 700 POSTS ??? …oh yea…knock Ag_not out of her journey…actually sounds like a creepy prize…think I’d say no thanks to it even if I could (not that I could or anything)…that’s it for me folks…I’m outa here…

It cant be over.
No one has answered the question what is the glory of God?
For all have fallen short of the glory of God
All includes Adam, All includes Mary.

 

[bett_ur_kidding]

doctrine of the Immaculate Conception

Man Made Doctrine

 

[Angels_Unaware]

It cant be over.
No one has answered the question what is the glory of God?
For all have fallen short of the glory of God
All includes Adam, All includes Mary.

I did answer this question. Maybe you overlooked it?

Let’s assume for a moment that the “glory of God” in this setnence means, “none is like God”. Is that what you assume it means? If so, your point is moot. Nobody has said that Mary is like God in anyway. She was redeemed from sin at conception. Saved (in exactly the same way we all are saved) before she sinned. She had to have this singular grace because she was the first member of the Body of Christ, and her flesh and His flesh were one. She had to be pure by his presence within her.