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Matariel
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Geez. I don’t see why… Saint Paul was just making a general statement.
Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!
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Matariel
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Okay. Perhaps you can look it up on the internet. The Ark points to Mary. The contents of the Ark point to Christ. (Note: the Presence of God was said to reside in the Ark).
Good luck researching this. Find some good sites online about the Mary-Old Ark correlation.
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benedictus2
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But that is why I said, you cannot add either “in sin” or “to sin” although in the context of the entire Chapter, died to sin is a better choice than “in sin”.
The Catholic Church teaches a baptism of desire. We do not know who are included in this so we cannot say that all the others who are not baptised have not died to sin.
Christ did die for all and Mary is included in that all.
As I mentioned before,that is probably why Paul left it at all have died. Or you can say all were dead.
If however we read ALL were dead without exceptions, then we can conclude that Christ is included in the ALL being part of Humanity.
One thing that you are missing if you concentrate on the ALL and take that literally as it stands without references to other passages in the Bible is that you open yourself up to the question of whether Jesus is in the All. But then you say No, He is not. And someone can say. Then how can that be ALL? Paul said He did not cling to His equality with God so He was fully human.
In any syllogism, when you have a universal statement, that means nothing is excluded from that statement.
If you say ALL dogs. You mean ALL dogs no exception.
As has been explained, Mary was redeemed by a singular grace and the support for this comes from Luke.
If she is FULL OF GRACE before she conceived Jesus, then what more Grace does she need? If she is FULL OF GRACE, how can she be in original sin which is how you interpret “dead” or “died in sin”.
Even from purely human reasoning, why would God bring into the world His Son, in a defiled body. She is to be the Ark of the New Covenant. He took so much care with his instructions for building the old Ark specifying that the purity of the gold. Why would he do any less for the Ark of THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT.
You have to remember too the kind of people Paul was evangelising. True, the Bible is timeless, but the Church at the time of this writing was still an infant Church. This infant Church will grow in understanding of our Salvation.
At the time of Paul, the doctrine of the Trinity was not yet formulated even though I am sure they already have a grasp of it.
yes, but it is your addtion of IN SIN that I was disputing.
I don’t know enough Mariology either, but pictuing a time and place does not really come into it because as I said, when we enter into the world we are in time and place. But God is in eternity, in what some call an eternal now (although I cannot conceive of that being in time myself) which is why there is much of this that will remain a mystery. The incarnation itself is a mystery. That a woman can conceive whilst a virgin is in itself a mystery.
Lastly, when you start picking verses here and there, we have the problem and what seems to be the Bible contradicting itself. Of Paul contradicting Christ, etc.
That is why the Catholic Church treats the Bible as a whole
There is a really good book called “Why does God Permit Evil” by Dom Brunno Web and I have recommended this to every one I know. It is about the fall, the covenant, the whole economy of salvation. The dogmas of the Catholic Church fit so well into the whole economy of salvation, and the Immaculate Conception has to be seen in this light as well. **Not from half of a verse **in the entire Bible when there is much support for it in other books and verses.
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SyCarl
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benedictus2
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Cinette, be realistic, will you? As Twb pointed out, do you really expect the flashlight to challenge the sun?When I was a child we used to go to the movies on Saturday mornings and there would be a trailer and the kids went wild.
There used to be a bunch of guys at the back of the movie house who would not sit down and throw popcorn all over the place!
Seems these guys are here on this thread. Gosh they haven’t changed a bit in all these years!
Not one of you has even tried to come up to the challenge Ag_not put to you. At first this thread had such promise and we were all getting geared up and then…same old thing whenever the popcorn gang comes along.
There is no real debate, there is no sharing and learning and there is no response to Ag_not’s challenge!
How tiresome!:whacky: :yawn: :doh2:
Come on.
That would be like the flashlight going, Hey I’m king when darkness falls. And the sun goes: what? that piddly gleam? You call that illumination?
But I must say, for some, that may be all that will get them through the night unless they part those black curtains and realize, what the?!!! morning has arrived!
Maybe the blinds are being parted. Slooooowwwwly.
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Martin777
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You somewhat misunderstood me. I wasn’t singling out Catholics at all. I have counselled with enough people to know that it is human nature. People who have not yet been saved are under God’s comdemnation and they are under the law, and by nature they are going to serve out of wrong motives. Once they are saved, whether they are Catholic, Methodist, Baptist or whatever, if they understand what has happened to them and who God has now become to them (Savior and Father rather than Creator and Judge), it transforms their motivation. Does that make sense?
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benedictus2
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In Mary’s case it was like God placed before her a completely blank book (God being free to fill it in with whatever condition as He pleases) and asked her to agree to the terms by signing on the dotted line at the back.
Not knowing what will fill up that book she goes without hesitation :“Sure,Can I borrow your pen?”
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benedictus2
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How do you know that for sure? Haven’t you met atheists or agnostics who love simply because…
Have your never known loving non- believers who love for the sake of it. Who help their fellow human beings because of compassion?
Don’t you know that Paul said in Romans that God’s law is written in our hearts. What law is that?
Also, have you never met people who “have been saved” who are avaricious, lustful etc and who will only scratch your back if you scratch theirs?
My friend, you are talking from unreality here.
When does that ONCE happen?
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wintersnow
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I understand that martin, and I agree with you too. But remember even when you are saved the same goes. But I just want to add one thing about the Blessed Mother. Just think of this tonight. Okay.
Full of Grace (thats where it say’s in the bible Mary had no sin. Because if she did it wouldn’t say full of grace it would say full of sin. We all know grace is the opposite of sin. But you will not find full of sin for Mary in the bible. See it does say shes sinless.
Now here is another easy one, and just think of this. Immaculate conception. Immaculate mary. It was at Mary’s conception not Jesus. She is the Immaculate Mary and was set free from sin at her conception. Kinda makes sense. Now remember when the angel came to Mary. What did he say? HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE THE LORD IS WITH YOU. Think about this THE Lord IS with you. Get it. Not the Lord will be with you, or was with you. The angel knew the Lord was already with Mary because she said so. The Lord was with Mary from the get go, See Martin, it all ties in together. It has to. Or it wouldn’t be true. God Bless you Martin and have a wonderful peaceful evening.
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benedictus2
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This is the whole problem with protestant belief regarding justification and why they reject purgatory.• 1 Cor 3:15 is clear: “……He himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames”.
• Some say God does not demand expiation after forgiving sins. What about David? When he repented, Nathan told him: “The Lord, on his part, has forgiven you; you shall not die but since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you (Bathsheba) must surely die” (2 Sam 12:14) Even after David’s sin was forgiven, he had to undergo expiation (purgation, in this life).
• In Nb 20:10-13, because Moses doubted and struck the rock at Meribah twice to yield water, he was not allowed entry by God into the Promised Land. This was his “purgation”, illustrating that purging or atoning for sin forgiven can take place in this life as well as in the next.
• In the OT deuterocanonical book (Apocrypha) 2 Macc 12:4-46, we read: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins”. Judas Maccabeus had arranged for an atonement offering to be made in Jerusalem, after taking up a collection of 2000 drachmas in silver for those soldiers who had fallen in battle on whom had been found idolatrous lucky charms of the idols of Jamnia, contrary to the prohibition in Deut. 7:25. this was done to make full atonement for their sin
Because they believe that justification is covering up our putrid souls with Christ’s grace, then obviously, one does not need expiation or atonement for sin.
We get wheeled in to heaven deformed and stinky except were wearing clean clothes.
All that abhorent grime underneath is overlooked by God because it is covered with clean fresh cloth.
They forget that nothing unclean will enter heaven.
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benedictus2
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I totally agree! How much more can we belabour this topic I don’t know.
Yet, I can’t not respond to the question. I hope that something sinks in.
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Martin777
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I don’t think you guys are listening very carefully! I fully believe I have run circles around those who want to fight against the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith apart from any works of the law. Your arguments have been biblically anemic and mainly relying on human logic and experience. I have quoted basic scriptures that go righ to the point, and have shown why all of Jesus’ statements about the improtance of works fit with that position. I’ll be polite and just say your debating has been abysmal. But let’s go to another area…Let me ask you this…just take the immaculate conception. Honestly, which position carries more biblical weight?..The lack of ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that states Mary was without sin, OR, Paul’s assertion that there is none righteous “no, not one!” and his statement that “ALL have sinned”. And then let me throw this one in, though what I have just said, to an objective observer, would win the point. Let me ask you, why did Mary call God HER Savior? I believe it is becuase she was a sinner like all people, though perhaps relatively better, AND SHE NEEDED A SAVIOR! That is why she said God was her Savior. You have given no solid biblical evidence.
Now here’s what I think the truth is. At least I am starting to feel this way in the little time I’ve been here: It doesn’t much matter what people prove on this site, because it is a Catholic site, we’re in your house, So when the body of Scripure contradicts your position, you subconsciously fall back on, well, our Church believes that, so I don’t have to listen to the evidence. You would never admit that, but I think that is the case.
So now I have both debated and vented! Throw me your best shot, but address the scriptures I have quoted here and in Eph 2:8,9. God Bless
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benedictus2
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But that’s just it. YOU HAVE NOT. I responded to your post regarding works of the law did you read that? You have not responded to that at all.
Come to think of it, you have not responded to any of my posts.
Honey, it is your argument that is Biblically anaemic.
People here have presented tons of Scriptural passages which you have not replied to.
I am beginning to think you are afraid of Scripture.
You post itty bitty one liners which does not address the questions at hand.
When you are challenged with meatier posts, you ignore it.
Why is that?
You happily post questions and we answer. But when we ask you, you do not answer.
You post a reply totally off tangent. You pull verses out of the Bible left, right and centre but when asked what they mean you go mum.
This entire above post has been answered 2 or 3 times at least on this thread. Have you read them at all?
I will search for the post numbers and I will post them.
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Luke65
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No, it’s Protestantism! So you’re saying that you’re “saved” so you’re not “under the law”? Are you greater than Paul?
“To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.” (1 Corinthians 9:21 NIV)
I know, I know, that verse isn’t in your Bible! It is. :yup:
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Martin777
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That is again such a low view of the cross, Benedictus. Now I’m going to throw some theology 401 at you…I believe if you take seriously what Paul says in Romans, Ephesians and Colossians about who we really are RIGHT NOW, in Christ, it answers your concerns about the need for purgatory. Paul says that our old man was crucified with Christ. He says, “If any man is in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have passed away, all things have become new.” Get this: twice in Rom 7 he says “it is no longer I that sins, but sin that dwells in me”. He says he still sins and hates it, and then notice what he says next: “who will deliver me from this BODY of death?” Then in the next chapter he says he is "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. " In Colossians 3 he says “Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.” Wow. If that is true, well…Here is what some think about these passages, and I beleive it does the best job of dealing with ALL the pertinent scriptures: The person who has been born again truly is a brand new creature who is still living in an unredeemed body, where the power of sin still resides. He says in Romans 8 that "you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Paul says he (the real him) is no longer the actual source of sin, though he is still very responsible when he chooses not to live out of the new man, the one who is in union with the Holy Spirit. Paul is saying, we believe, that when we are reunited with Christ, when He returns, we will be changed in a moment. It is because we will no longer be in these bodies. We will be in new, glorified bodies, the fruit of the resurrection. So he says if you see who you really are, you will be amazed and awed. Just take those verses for what they are and feast on what it means. THAT is why we don’t need purgatory! There are a number of things I am NOT saying, that may be running through your heads, but I’ll stop here. This will either seem totally bizarre to you or it will set off some nice explosions!
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Martin777
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I did not read that statement, “But the dogma of the Immaculate Conception does not say that Christ did not redeem Mary. Mary was still redeemed by Christ. Except that the grace of his death was made available to Mary prior to her conception,” prior to my last post on Mary, so the reference to God being her Savior due to earthly sin is moot, via the RCC’s spontaneous explosion of dogma, rooted ever so loosely in God’s word.
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Matariel
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Are you kidding? As a protestant I saw the Cross in a good view, but nonetheless, since I became Catholic, my view of the Holy Cross has become even more insightful, valuable, and it just makes so much sense compared to the Protestant system of Calvin or Luther, or any other of the first protestant sectarians.
The Catholic view on everything is just so fitting and just fits together seamlessly. Especially the Holy Eucharist and Ecclesiology.
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benedictus2
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A low view of the cross. You have got to be kidding. At the Cross, Christ redeemed us. Redemption is different from salvation.
Is that why you did not answer me when I asked you this question on another post?
True, that is what we believe as well. If you die right after baptism when all your sins are wiped away and you are a brand new creation, you go straight to heaven. The sacrament of baptism causes this indelible change in your soul.
Purgatory, will cease to exist after Christ’s second coming. Any Catholic here in this thread who know I may have got that wrong please correct me a.s.a.p.
Purgatory is only there until the final judgment. So yes, (but I am not sure of this) perhaps that is what will happen at the final judgment, an instant change.
But until then purgatory will be where we will be purified BECAUSE NOTHING UNCLEAN WILL ENTER HEAVEN.
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It is because we will no longer be in these bodies. We will be in new, glorified bodies, the fruit of the resurrection. So he says if you see who you really are, you will be amazed and awed. Just take those verses for what they are and feast on what it means.
I have taken those verses and have proven above that it does not negate purgatory. It is your understanding of purgatory that needed to be amended.
As I have shown above, purgatory is necessary prior to Final Judgment because nothing unclean will enter heaven.
And those who die now, even though their sins have been forgiven are still unclean. Because they have been forgiven they cannot go to Hell, but because they are unclean, they cannot go to Heaven. God’s justice must be satisfied and that is why there is purgatory.
**And the only explosion I heard was when your proposition came crashing down.
**
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Matariel
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So you think that grace from the Cross is limited by time? That it could only be applied after Christ’s death? What about the grace in the Old Testament? What about the Old Testament Saints saved from Hell? The sin offerings in the Old Testament had no power in-and-of themselves, only with Christ on the Cross did they convey grace.
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Martin777
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So Benedictus, tell me which post proved that Paul’s assertion that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the Law is harmonious to the notion that we are saved by faith plus works. There are so many posts and I have a job and six children and a wife to keep happy. I try my best to speak to the issue, but maybe we just all hear what we want to.
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