Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

[Techno2000]

You somewhat misunderstood me. I wasn’t singling out Catholics at all. I have counselled with enough people to know that it is human nature. People who have not yet been saved are under God’s comdemnation and they are under the law, and by nature they are going to serve out of wrong motives. Once they are saved, whether they are Catholic, Methodist, Baptist or whatever, if they understand what has happened to them and who God has now become to them (Savior and Father rather than Creator and Judge), it transforms their motivation. Does that make sense?

If a person can never lose their Salvation, that would mean that it would be a waste of time for the Devil to try tempt them, right ?

 

[benedictus2]

If a person can never lose their Salvation, that would mean that it would be a waste of time for the Devil to try tempt them, right ?

Boy some people just know how to nail with one blow!

While I struggle with yada, yada.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I used to listen to that all the time when I was protestant.

Dude, the beauty, gloriousness, and sacredness of Catholic music (especially the ancient worship hymns) is one of the reasons I was originally attracted to Catholicism. It’s much more deep, sacred, and I daresay more Christian. For instance: O Come O Come Emmanuel. The Breastplate of St. Patrick. Veni Creator Spiritus. Pange Lingua. I could go on.

Not only is Catholic music much better, deeper, more meaningful, and more inline with historic Christianity, I much prefer it to new-fangled Protestant praise-and-worship stuff. It just strikes me as not as deep, and a bit bland. Sorry, just my opinion.

** Hi matariel,

Very, Very well said! :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

Did you realize, protestants normally sing better than Catholics and also the entire song? Catholics use it only as ‘background’ while something is being accomplished. When the thing is done the music stops. Protestants aren’t doing much but singing so they normally sing the entire song. More pratice = better singers

hi Martin
Exactly how does this argument reference the OP? Did I miss something? Ag_nots will “Get you!” at least pretend you are trying to win, not just blow wind!

Reference songs, did you know? From 1558 until 1829, Roman Catholics in England were not permitted to practice their faith openly. Someone during that era wrote this carol as a catechism song for young Catholics. It has two levels of meaning: the surface meaning plus a hidden meaning known only to members of the Catholic church. Each element in the carol has a code word for a religious reality which the children could remember.

-The partridge in a pear tree was Jesus Christ.

-Two turtle doves were the Old and New Testaments.

-Three French hens stood for faith, hope and love.

-The four calling birds were the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John.

-The five golden rings recalled the Torah or Law, the first five books of the Old Testament.

-The six geese a-laying stood for the six days of creation.

-Seven swans a-swimming represented the sevenfold gifts of the Holy Spirit–Prophesy, Serving, Teaching, Exhortation, Contribution, Leadership, and Mercy.

-The eight maids a-milking were the eight beatitudes.

-Nine ladies dancing were the nine fruits of the Holy Spirit–Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self Control.

-The ten lords a-leaping were the ten commandments.

-The eleven pipers piping stood for the eleven faithful disciples.

-The twelve drummers drumming symbolized the twelve points of belief in the Apostles’ Creed.

Isn’t this interesting and enlightening?

[SIGN]Merry (Twelve Days of) Christmas Everyone **[/SIGN]

God Bless

 

[Realcatholicgk]

"Techno2000:

If a person can never lose their Salvation, that would mean that it would be a waste of time for the Devil to try tempt them, right ?

Boy some people just know how to nail with one blow! While I struggle with yada, yada.

**You and me both Ben.

Kootos! Techno :thankyou: :thankyou: :thankyou: :thankyou: **

 

[Church_Militant]

Benedictus, I am going to respectfully say that you tend toward arrogance. You will not be persuaded. You are wise in your own eyes.

“Respectfully”? I sure don’t see any respect in that comment.

Tell me what Paul meant when he said to the church at Corinth, a church with a lot of problems, “but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified”. Tell me about that verse, O wise one.

You force your own (or someone else’s) interpretation onto the the text here, because the passage does not speak to the issue of Purgatory the way you wish to infer that it does. Nothing in that passage contradicts the teaching of Purgatory, though I suppose you wish it did.

Did they all just happen to jump out of the baptismal font right before they read that letter?

Sarcasm? If you cannot discuss or debate religious topics without this then perhaps you need to reconsider your interest in apologetics because your offensive attitude may well send souls to hell who might otherwise have come to conversion with a more reasonable approach.

What does the Word of God tell us about this?
Matthew 12: 36 But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment.

Do you really want to account to Our Lord for the souls He might have to send into hell for eternity as we all stand before Him that day? I wouldn’t. Look at 1st Peter 3:15.

That must be dogma somewhere, right? Explain that one away now and strip the word of God of more of its glory so the RCC can continue to stand in its proverbial underwear.

You are WAAAY outta line with this remark sir. I will provide a link to my own article that will refute your remarks from both the Word of God and Orthodox Jewish teaching as well.

You cannot name one single verse that states clearly that Christians get purged in some ‘process’ after death. Not one!

This is totally untrue.

However, it is true of the n-C errant fundametal doctrine of Sola Scriptura. (Link to free MP3 Bible study on it)

You have to stretch and infer and frankly pretend.

If you say so, yet I prove you wrong in my article.

Amazing that the majority of Christians in the world reject that stuff. Poor separated brethren that they are, busy leading all the idiots to a salvation that seems strangely like new life. Exciting life, compared to whatever that is that I walked away from as a child. Born again people are writing all those happy songs that stand in contrast to the stuff we hear coming out of the Catholic church. There’s a party going on, Ben, and its a pre-party for the King of Kings.

Look! A load of rhetoric without a basis in fact!

The truth is that only a very small number of the total of all n-Cs actually are involved in that activity. It was true in every n-C community that I was ever in for over 30 years, whether it was non-denominational, Southern Baptist, or Assembly of God. Most are more restive about their faith and in the end the numbers are probably about even (or getting there at this point) between Catholics who share their faith, and n-Cs who “witness”.

You apparently have not been to Mass where I am. I love it, and I suspect that we can get a consensus of faithful Catholics on this thread who will concure that that is their experience as well. Our Mass is not like your services, and frankly we thank God for it. I don’t miss n-C services or preaching at all.

You guys remind me of the Pharisees scowling as Jesus was celebrated by the people.

You are simply an offensive individual who apparently cannot charitably share your faith or discuss or debate religion charitably with others. Like I said…I suggest that you reconsider your ways.

You know a lot of history; I just haven’t met hardly any of you who honestly seem to have LIFE.

No…what you haven’t met are faithful Catholics who will agree with your errant doctrines because we know both the Bible (and are growing in that knowledge day by day!) and the actual historical facts of Christianity from the early church to the present day. You and your faith community reject that becase you accept and adgere to the 500 years old error of Sola Scriptura and all the other cascading doctrinal errors that descend from it. That is not our fault…

I’m weary of pretending that you are even on the same level of understanding of the cross.

Then take a nap. Have a Coke and a smile or whatever it takes to make yourself feel better, but don’t :crying: about Catholics that disagree with your modern new winds of doctrines of men. Errors such as you believe can be hazardous to one’s soul.
Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

 

[benedictus2]

Yes, I am getting upset. I feel like driving some people out of the temple that shouldn’t be in there. But I don’t want you off my case. I live to share the truth with people like you. I love it, and I love educationg those who are observing.
.
.

And I am finally onto you regarding a couple of those passages. The verse “you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified”…Your answer is bogus and you know it. Paul knew that every person who would hear that letter read out loud to the assembly…every believer had sinned many times since the were saved. But guess what? They were STILL in the condition Paul called “washed, sanctified, justified” Now you apologize and come up with a responsible answer. The reason it is so odd to you IS in fact because you don’t know EXPERIENTIALLY what the atonement is all about. You don’t know that “by ONE OFFERING He perfected forever those who are sanctified” (the church) Oh you’ve read it, Ben, you just don’t KNOW it.

Second Reply.

You know what, I think it is you that God wants educated. Why else would he lead you here when you are pitted against a lot of us who know our faith pretty well. There are much more easy pickings out there.

But you are resisting. And I understand. The converts I wrote about in my other post, they resisted too. As a matter of fact, a very well know, very well educated and intelligient man, Thomas Howard, resisted for 10 years. Before he converted he wrote Evangelical is not Enough. And then he wrote Lead Kindly Light, the story of his journey from Evangelicalism, to Anglicanism to finally coming home to the bark of Peter.

So that’s okay. It’s not in my time or in anyone’s time that this will happen. It will happen in God’s time.

Every single conversion story I read spoke of the fear of converting. But in the end, nothing could compare to their joy at finally being received in the Church.

You should read Ag_nots threads called Weirdsville. I cried when I read it and so did other. I have printed it to give to other people.

Another one, Lief Erikson had a most moving account of his conversion. He is only 23 yet very learned. He is in this forums but have taken a break. If you like, I will email you his story as he has given me permission.

So yes, you can be as nasty as much as you like, That’s all okay. I can take it. All water off a duck’s back. Others though might not be too happy about that.

 

[Church_Militant]

Yes, I am getting upset. I feel like driving some people out of the temple that shouldn’t be in there.

That was Our Lord’s job and nowhere in scripture do I see that having been delegated or passed down to anyone else.

To borrow a phrase from a famous political debate, I know Jesus Christ and you’re no Jesus Christ.

But I don’t want you off my case.

You’ll never get that lucky unless they ban you.

I live to share the truth with people like you. I love it, and I love educationg those who are observing.

The problem here is that in order to educate someone else one has to know what one is talking about, and you don’t seem to qualify one that score. If you ever were a Catholic, the like many like me you must have slept through religion class and Mass and so were so poorly catechized that (like me) you were pretty easily deceived away from the Catholic faith.

Why do I talk to so many former Catholics who have the same story? Dead, dry religion until they found out what it means to be born again.

Don’t know…if that is true (and I’m not agreeing that it is!) then they also had the same problems I did. They’re really not much worse than the ignorant people that I used to have to teach in Sunday School classes, most of whom couldn’t explain & defend something as fundamental as the diety of Jesus.

Don’t tell Jesus I didn’'t warn you that He said “you must be born again”

Oh wait a minute! How many of us have heard that many times from homilies at Mass and especially at baptismal services? I’ve lost count of all the times I have!

You really don’t know what all the fuss is, do you? “Let’s not get so excited there, pal.” “I can’t help it sir, I’ve found new life!” “Well you didn’t find it here, so calm down.”

Keep dreamin’! This is just rhetorical misrepresentation of Catholicism and only the grossly ignorant would fail to see it as such. I don’t know about others, but my parish ROCKS with life and I wouldn’t trade it for the world.

And I am finally onto you regarding a couple of those passages. The verse “you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified”…Your answer is bogus and you know it. Paul knew that every person who would hear that letter read out loud to the assembly…every believer had sinned many times since the were saved. But guess what? They were STILL in the condition Paul called “washed, sanctified, justified”

Here again you present this interpretation of man as if it is the only one, even though it does not apply the way you wish it did. Nor does it support some doctrine of OSAS/Eternal security which is another modern error.

Now you apologize and come up with a responsible answer.

No…no apology is needed from any of us that I have seen, but I do think that we could accept one from you for your caustic and uncharitable tone so far.

The reason it is so odd to you IS in fact because you don’t know EXPERIENTIALLY what the atonement is all about. You don’t know that “by ONE OFFERING He perfected forever those who are sanctified” (the church) Oh you’ve read it, Ben, you just don’t KNOW it.

It would probably be best if one avoided statements like this in which you try to infer that somneone has not been born again. In fact, this consitutes a violation of the Forum Rules that you agreed to when you joned CAF. This is spelled out very clearly here.

Frankly, I think you’re dead wrong. I for one certainly do know His cleansing experientially. It’s part of what makes me live the way I do.

Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

 

[Cinette]

The non-Catholics on this thread have not come forward to meet the challenge. NOT ONE - NOT A SINGLE ONE - has taken up Ag_not’s challenge! This is what she wrote on another thread which came to an end because the number of postings exceeded 1000 and that is why she started this thread.

Unlike some people here, I do ACTUALLY have 2 degrees and am working on my Masters right now as we speak. I have a very open mind and am full of questions. I work like this - you say …XYZ! I then take XYZ apart, go back to source documents, read the history around XYZ, read up the social, economic, political and moral climate of the time relevant to XYZ, read opponents and proponents of XYZ, read criticisms of XYZ - but only by respected authors in the field relevant to XYZ of course, and then I reach my own conclusion, evidenced by the literature searches - plagorism is a no-no in my book - and - Ta Dah !!! You may or may not have convinced me, but you can be sure I looked at what you said under a microscope for the truth.

So, you throw me a bone of catholic dogma or doctrine that is anti Biblical, I will look at it in terms of the above described, and if I agree with you and you’ve proven your point, I will announce it all over CAF, leave RCIA immediately - and I AM NOT KIDDING - and look to the Holy Spirit and you and your church for guidance of my soul.

What is happening is that you are all skirting around the issues. Noone has even attempted to furnish PROOF that any of the teachings/doctrines/dogmas of the Catholic are untrue. Methinks it is because this is not possible.

And you know it!

So you resort to playing games.

You think that is clever?

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi SyCarl

Im so grateful to you for contributing - I was beginning to think I had started an invisible thread - got loads of house work done though

Canonising saints

Would that actually count as a contribution?

 

[wintersnow]

I don’t think you guys are listening very carefully! I fully believe I have run circles around those who want to fight against the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith apart from any works of the law. Your arguments have been biblically anemic and mainly relying on human logic and experience. I have quoted basic scriptures that go righ to the point, and have shown why all of Jesus’ statements about the improtance of works fit with that position. I’ll be polite and just say your debating has been abysmal. But let’s go to another area…Let me ask you this…just take the immaculate conception. Honestly, which position carries more biblical weight?..The lack of ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that states Mary was without sin, OR, Paul’s assertion that there is none righteous “no, not one!” and his statement that “ALL have sinned”. And then let me throw this one in, though what I have just said, to an objective observer, would win the point. Let me ask you, why did Mary call God HER Savior? I believe it is becuase she was a sinner like all people, though perhaps relatively better, AND SHE NEEDED A SAVIOR! That is why she said God was her Savior. You have given no solid biblical evidence.
Now here’s what I think the truth is. At least I am starting to feel this way in the little time I’ve been here: It doesn’t much matter what people prove on this site, because it is a Catholic site, we’re in your house, So when the body of Scripure contradicts your position, you subconsciously fall back on, well, our Church believes that, so I don’t have to listen to the evidence. You would never admit that, but I think that is the case.
So now I have both debated and vented! Throw me your best shot, but address the scriptures I have quoted here and in Eph 2:8,9. God Bless

Now Martin now that you vented away your anger, And I being a short fuse myself at times can relate. Go back and read again. Where in the world did anyone say Mary did not need a savior.

Mary did need to be saved by all means. And she was BY GOD. Remember the Angel THE LORD IS WITH YOU. Your problem Martin is you cannot see when she was saved. It was at the moment at her conception. You cannot accept this. We said NO SIN not NO SAVIOR,. Now I haven’t gone back and read all of the responses, If one of my brothers or sisters in Christ said she didn’t by all means correct them. They need to be corrected. But I gave you the scripture FULL OF GRACE. Now its your turn, don’t vent now prove what you have said. Show me full of sin now. Lets stay on track and settle this once and for all.

One question why is it when we are forced to show scripture and we did, it is ignored. Tell me Martin having the Lord with you and being FULL of GRACE what does that mean to You?

 

[wintersnow]

Now Martin Please show me where we said we do not need to be saved by the Grace Of God. Of course we do the bible tells me so. Grace is what gives us the Power to do good, to put others before ourselves. What is Grace Martin, Grace is Power from God and strength to do good, to do right! But remember scripture cannot contradict scripture. So lets see here. If grace without works are fruitless, and works without grace isn’t possible, (in GODs EYES) not your eyes Martin or mine. Then I guess by george I think we have got it. That is why the bible has never said you are saved by grace ALONE. ALONE AGAIN MARTIN. You see what you want to see, now see what is there. Show me in the bible where it said GRACE ALONE in the same sentence!

 

[wintersnow]

Heres a good one Martin. Found favor with God. What does that mean? Well lets see, favor means, to aprove of, would God approve sin? Don’t think so there little buddy. How about advocate, someone sent to plead anothers cause. Would that cause be to give birth to the Savior of the World, and right after that show People how to sin. Come on Martin how silly is that!

 

[rinnie]

How about this little tid bit of info.

quote:
If God gives the chestnut the possibliity of being conceived nourised and formed under thorns, but remote from them, could he not grant the human body which he was preparing for himself to be a temple in which he would dwell bodilly, that although she was conceived among the thorns of sin, she might be RENDERED COMPLETLEY IMMUNE FROM THEIR PRICKS?
He COULD do it therefore, if he WILLED IT. HE DID IT. unquote
(Eadmer)

Quote: St John of Damascus a greek theologian who lived form about 675-749 Anne gave birth to a Child, whose EQUAL HAD NEVER BEEN CREATED AND NEVER CAN BE. unquote

Martin 6 hard to believe you never came across that one.

Luke 1:46-55 My sould magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior for he has regarded the low estate of his HANDMADEN. Martin did you catch that Hand Maiden. For behold henceforth all generations will call me blessed.

Blessed Martin, not a sinner. Call me BLESSED, Not they will say Im like the rest of the world a sinner,

How about put a little of this in the ole pipe and smoke it baby, listen up

FOR HE WHO IS MIGHTY HAS DONE GREAT THINGS FOR ME AND HOLY IS HIS NAME. What filled her with sin Please…

Can’t anyone see that Mary is a sign of UNITY not Division. She belongs to ALL who call her SON SAVIOR AND LORD. aLL WHO CALL HER SAVIOR AND LORD BELONG TO HER.

Now as a girl I used to work with said and listen up folks

NOW THAT IS WHAT THE CHURCH BE TEACHING. AND YOU BEST BE LISTENING! YOU’S PEOPLE JUST DON’T WANT’S TO HEAR THE TRUTH! LORD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOUL!

 

[fbl9]

I don’t think i am listening very carefully!
.just take the immaculate conception. Let me ask you, why did Mary call God HER Savior? I believe it is becuase she was a sinner like all people, though perhaps relatively better, AND SHE NEEDED A SAVIOR! That is why she said God was her Savior.

Martin think carefully about the words ‘‘HER SAVIOR’’ did you call Jesus your savior before you where saved???

 

[twb1621]

I don’t think you guys are listening very carefully! I fully believe I have run circles around those who want to fight against the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith apart from any works of the law. Your arguments have been biblically anemic…

Reposted from other thread…
Part 1 of 2 “…For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” - Ephesians 2:10
“Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” - 2 Corinthians 11:15
“Who will render to every man according to his deeds.” - Romans 2:6
“[This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.” - Titus 3:8
“And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works…” - Hebrews 10:24
“Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.” - 1 Peter 2:12
“What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” - James 2:14-26
“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” - Matthew 25:31-46
“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” - Revelations 20:12
“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” - Revelations 22:12
continued

 

[twb1621]

part 2 of 2

"…Among the Scripture verses which are frequently twisted by protestants are Romans 11:6, Galatians 2:16, and Romans 4:1-8. These verses have been twisted by protestants, who, through misunderstanding and lack of knowledge, are under the delusion that they refute the Catholic stance on works and salvation. Let us start with Romans 11:6. Permit me to cite the verse in question:
Romans 11:6 [DR] And if by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
If salvation were to come by works, done by nature, apart faith and grace, salvation would not be a grace or favor, but a debt; but such dead works are indeed of no value in the sight of God towards salvation. It is not the same with regard to works done with and by God’s grace; for to such works as these he has promised eternal salvation (see the above-cited verses on this question).
The Church does not say that grace is not necessary for salvation, nor does She say that Faith is not necessary for salvation. And She is most certainly not saying that one can be saved by works alone. All three of the above are necessary for salvation. Faith without grace and works is dead, just as works without faith and grace would be dead. It is through a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching that this verse is commonly used by Protestants against Catholics, and against the necessity of works for salvation.
… to cite Galatians 2:16, which says:
Galatians 2:16 [DR] But knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
As the Haydock’s Bible says concerning this verse:
“‘Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law.’ S. Paul, to the end of the chapter, seems to continue his discourse to S. Peter, but chiefly to the Jewish Galatians, to show that both the Gentiles, whom the Jews called and looked upon as sinners, and also the Jews, when converted, could only hope to be justified and saved by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law. – ‘For by the law I am dead to the law.’ That is, says S. Jerome, by the evangelical law of Christ I am dead to the ancient law and its ceremonies.” (Vol. II p. 244)
And as St. Paul said in his Epistle to the Romans, Chapter 3 verse 20, “Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.” What is obviously being referred to here are the works of the Law of Moses. If it were otherwise, we would have a clear-cut example of a contradiction in the Sacred Scriptures. For does not St. James tell us that Faith without works is dead? And do not the Scriptures elsewhere state that Good works and deeds are necessary for salvation (Luke 10:28; 10:25; 18:18. Matthew 19:16)? Here we see that the protestants are pitting Scripture against Scripture… instead of accepting Scripture in its entirety. The protestants claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost… but one of the many problems with this is the fact that the Holy Ghost would never accept the words of St. Paul over the words of St. James, and discard the words of the latter. Nor would the Holy Ghost ask one to discard the Words of Christ, as listed in the books of Matthew and Luke, chapters and verses listed above.
The third, and, by far, the most frequently used attack on the necessity of works for salvation, is Romans 4:1-8, which says as follows:
“What shall we say then that Abraham hath found, who is our father according to the flesh. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt. But to him that worketh not, yet believeth in him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God. As David also termeth the blessedness of a man, to whom God reputes justice without works: Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord hath not imputed sin.”
As St. James states, referring to the exact same verses to which you are referring above "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? "(St. James, 2:21-24) When St. Paul stated “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God” what were, again, referred to were works done for the honor and glory of man, not those of God. As the verse very plainly points out. It is not rejecting works altogether, as St. James pointed out above. In fact, St. James uses the verse following the above as proof for the fact that works are necessary for justification! After all, not only was the offering up of Isaac upon the altar a work (which God required Abraham to do, in order to test Abraham’s Faith… which, in turn, shows, yet again, that Faith alone is not enough), but also Abraham’s own belief, was a work.
It might be very well to point out here that taking Scripture verses out of context (in an attempt to prove an erroneous belief), is a thing which was used by Satan himself against Christ when Satan tempted Christ in the desert.
Thus falls the theory of salvation through faith alone, not to mention the erroneous interpretations which are frequently given to several verses in the Sacred Scriptures.
catholicapologetics.info/…eral/saved.htm

 

[fbl9]

the gospel according to St.Jonh3:21"but he who does the truth comes to the light that his deeds may be made manifest,for they have been performed in God"ST.Luke 12 32-34.

 

[Martin777]

I hate to burst your bubble, but there are so many converts from Protestantism who are now at the forefront of Catholic Apologetics. These people hated the Catholic Church that they did they utmost to get people out of the Church.

But when they converted, boy!. Scott Hahn alone is like St Paul.
And there’s Stephen Ray, Marcus Grodi, etc.
And you know what, they were pastors with years of theology under their belt.

As a matter of fact, Tim Staples, converted to Catholicism whilst studying at one of the most anti catholic colleges.

You know what, you should read their stories. Because they were protestant and very anti-catholic you will understand more what we are trying to say from them because they’ve been where you are.

Some of them were Catholics, then they become born again, then realized that they left the true blue real deal Church of Christ so they came back.

Here’s a link to one of them.
catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0088.html

I have heard of many Catholic reverts, you know those who were Catholic, became protestant, then became Catholic again. As a matter of fact, a lot of them are in this forum.

Anyone you know who did the reverse, Protestant, became Catholic, became Protestant again? And I am not talking about those who converted to Catholicism just to get married or something. I mean those who converted to Catholicism for doctrinal reasons, then left to become protestant again.

That was someone else who replied with exactly those verses (I think Luke)
But anyway, yes they were still sanctified, they were still washed, they were still justified. It would be like me seeing a dirty cloth saying : But I washed it. Just now it’s dirty again.Only difference being that, original sin is completely gone. Once washed away, that’s it.

However, the other sins committed after that stain the soul again.

So here’s a question, one of them commited murder and adultery then died. Where would that person go?

Why should I apologize? I am not the one calling people names, helooooo.!

Totally in agreement with that one time redemption.
But that is not what is in question here.

Answer my question above about the murderer and adulterer who died and maybe we will get somewhere.

Benedictus–I want you to know two things: First, i write out of complete sincerity and the desire for as many people as possible to know the truth. The fellowship I have with believers is in one sense the most precious thing on earth.
Second, what I have been sharing with you are things I have believed for thirty plus years. I have studied the Bible for a very long time, including three years of Greek in the semetary…I mean seminary! (Inside joke you can probably appreciate. And I had some of the most amazing peopole as professors I could ever hope for). I have a very critical mind and the philosophy and logic I studied in colleege didn’t hurt. But I am over 50 now and my mind…well…I’m not as sharp as I used to be!

OK, I read the story of Scott Hahn you linked. Very moving, BUT…the first two things he said were truning points theologically are flawed: 1. He said that if Jesus’ talk about eating His flesh and drinking His blood were supposed to be only symbolic, He would have said so. Please! This is so faulty. Look at the other times (from John) Jesus spoke similarly and NEVER clarified: “I am the door”, “I am the light of the world”, “I am the vine”. Not one example, yet this was critical in Scott’s decision.

Second, he said that when he read in Thessalonians where Paul told the Christians to “hold to the traditions you were taught”, he thought that was a devastating blow to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Ben, I think you know much better than this: Of course Paul said that! At the time he wrote, there was no New Testament Canon! The New Testament we have now was at the time the LETTERS that Paul, Peter, John had written and were circulating among the churches. The Holy Spirit inspired those letters and that is why they later became Canon. That is so obvious, I am amazed that he didn’t see it.

So I do really appreciate you sending me to his story to help me find someone who came out of protestantism. I feel it came from a good heart. But this one just proves my points.

 

[Martin777]

part 2 of 2

"…Among the Scripture verses which are frequently twisted by protestants are Romans 11:6, Galatians 2:16, and Romans 4:1-8. These verses have been twisted by protestants, who, through misunderstanding and lack of knowledge, are under the delusion that they refute the Catholic stance on works and salvation. Let us start with Romans 11:6. Permit me to cite the verse in question:

“‘Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law.’ S. Paul, to the end of the chapter, seems to continue his discourse to S. Peter, but chiefly to the Jewish Galatians, to show that both the Gentiles, whom the Jews called and looked upon as sinners, and also the Jews, when converted, could only hope to be justified and saved by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law. – ‘For by the law I am dead to the law.’ That is, says S. Jerome, by the evangelical law of Christ I am dead to the ancient law and its ceremonies.” (Vol. II p. 244)
And as St. Paul said in his Epistle to the Romans, Chapter 3 verse 20, “Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.” What is obviously being referred to here are the works of the Law of Moses. If it were otherwise, we would have a clear-cut example of a contradiction in the Sacred Scriptures. For does not St. James tell us that Faith without works is dead? And do not the Scriptures elsewhere state that Good works and deeds are necessary for salvation (Luke 10:28; 10:25; 18:18. Matthew 19:16)? Here we see that the protestants are pitting Scripture against Scripture… instead of accepting Scripture in its entirety. The protestants claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost… but one of the many problems with this is the fact that the Holy Ghost would never accept the words of St. Paul over the words of St. James, and discard the words of the latter. Nor would the Holy Ghost ask one to discard the Words of Christ, as listed in the books of Matthew and Luke, chapters and verses listed above.
The third, and, by far, the most frequently used attack on the necessity of works for salvation, is Romans 4:1-8, which says as follows:
“What shall we say then that Abraham hath found, who is our father according to the flesh. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt. But to him that worketh not, yet believeth in him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God. As David also termeth the blessedness of a man, to whom God reputes justice without works: Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord hath not imputed sin.”
As St. James states, referring to the exact same verses to which you are referring above "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? "(St. James, 2:21-24) When St. Paul stated “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God” what were, again, referred to were works done for the honor and glory of man, not those of God. As the verse very plainly points out. It is not rejecting works altogether, as St. James pointed out above. In fact, St. James uses the verse following the above as proof for the fact that works are necessary for justification! After all, not only was the offering up of Isaac upon the altar a work (which God required Abraham to do, in order to test Abraham’s Faith… which, in turn, shows, yet again, that Faith alone is not enough), but also Abraham’s own belief, was a work.
It might be very well to point out here that taking Scripture verses out of context (in an attempt to prove an erroneous belief), is a thing which was used by Satan himself against Christ when Satan tempted Christ in the desert.
Thus falls the theory of salvation through faith alone, not to mention the erroneous interpretations which are frequently given to several verses in the Sacred Scriptures.
catholicapologetics.info/…eral/saved.htm

I really do appreciate all those verses. I thought I have been careful to make this point: I wholeheartedly embrace those verses and believe that our works will be examined on the last day. But my point is simply this: It is saving faith that gets us into God’s family. Happens in a moment in time (has it happened to you? not being sarcastic). THEN we spend the rest of our lives serving God and doing good works that please Him and glorify Him. On that last day it will be seen that those who were born again–now “in the Spirit” were the ones able to produce works that truly pass the scrutiny of a God who judges the ‘secret motives of men’s hearts’ PAUL SAYS IN ROMANS 8 THAT THOSE WHO ARE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD. Yet millions who have never been saved (in all kninds of churches) are running around IN THE FLESH doing works that CANNOT PLEASE GOD.
It’s why God promised in the OT that He would one day put his law IN OUR HEARTS! Because apart from that we can do works until we are blue in the face and they are out of wrong motives. Please deal with what I have said here and tell me what you think

 

[fbl9]

. Yet millions who have never been saved (in all kninds of churches) are running around IN THE FLESH doing works that CANNOT PLEASE GOD.
It’s why God promised in the OT that He would one day put his law IN OUR HEARTS! Because apart from that we can do works until we are blue in the face and they are out of wrong motives. Please deal with what I have said here and tell me what you think

just what are these wrong motives Martin 777??you seem to think these peolpe do good works in vain because that is what you have been taught by some misinformed pastor?why do you do good works?or do you even try to help your fellow man?and i do not mean by preaching to them,for what good ii it to preach salvation and then leave the person without food? give them food first then preach because your preaching would then be already accepted by your actions…one does good works out of love and where does that love come from?