Against Catherine Emmerich

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philipmarie

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Through the Blessed Mother, Queen of all nations and Queen of Czestochowa,

And, before some simple minded person accuses me of being, ahem, a sceptic, don’t. I am not a sceptic :D, I’m a Marian Catholic who just wishes to please his Heavenly Mother.

Everybody here has heard about Catherine Emmerich. She was a German mystic who allegedly had the stigmata, had ‘visions’, and who was found incorrupt after her death. She has been ‘beatified’ by John Paul II and is awaiting canonization.

However, I doubt whether the Church shall canonize this here woman, especially after analyzing here writings which are riddled with ‘plot holes’, which in this case means that her writings have alot of things which contradict Church teaching; and I’m going to show you what things this ‘visionary’s’ writings include, and the removal of some misconceptions from people’s heads.
 
I look forward to reading your arguments. I am mostly ignorant on this specific person, though I have definitely heard of her.
 
1. Emmerichs writings on the life of Christ and Mary are not true, autenthic visions but are rather, as the publishers say, meditations.

Everyone here read Emmerichs account on the Passion (Mel Gibson’s 2004 film was based alot on these accounts) which is very, very moving indeed. I cried the first time I read… however, this book and her other The Life of Chirst show that these are not based on true, authenthic visions but were either a), meditations or b), illusions of the devil.

I think that they were meditations. Note that are way of thinking, unless aided by Mary and Jesus (and even then it could happen), is fallible. A few individuals had to fix the manuscipt for some theological mistakes and even the finished version still included alot of mistakes and inconsistencies.

These mistakes do not necessarily border on heresy but what damage these may do! And here ar ejust a few of them:

Emmerich says that in a few instances (at the Flagelation of Christ and the carraige of the Cross) the Blessed Virgin fainted. This is heresy, as God would never allow His Mother who is all perfect to lose the use of Her reason. Saint Cajetan wrote a phamphlet refuting the notion that Mary fainted during the Passion; Garrigou lagrange speaks alot about this privilege of Mary’s.
It is a dogma of faith (defined by the Holy Office in 1908) that Christ always had the beatific vision, even from the first moment of His Conception and so He always had to use of His reason. Saint John the Baptist had the use of reason in his Mother’s womb as seen by the fact that he leapt for joy when he heard the Blessed Virgin’s voice (Mary was his second cousin. There now, happy?!:)). If this privilege wa snot denied to Saint John the Baptist, why would God deny it to Mary?

Siant Alphonsus says in his Glories of Mary that Saint Thomas More, as he neared the scaffold to get his head chopped off was met by his daughter Margaret who could only utter: “Oh father, dear Father!”. She fainted at his feet. She lost the lose of her reason becuase of her confusion and the great love which she bore her dad, but that dies not mean that becuase Mary did not faint She loved Her Son less. No way! no creature loved the Son of God more than Her! In fact Mary’s sorrow grew more and more as She saw Her Son go to death.

Another mistake occurs again inside the Passion, where hrist is in the danger of being sentenced to death. Here, Emmerich makes Mary trying to hinder Her Son from getting excecuted and crucified.

This is inconsistent: not only would Mary, becuase of Her immensely great love for us, NOT prevent Her Son getting excecuted but She Herself would have willingly crucified Him if it was necessary. Our dear Mother would never try to hinder our salvation: She Herself offered Her Son for us at the Temple and She offered Him willingly. There would have been a grave contradiction if Mary, at one moment gave Her Son to God for us and in another, She wanted to save Him (this is what makes Mary so generous, becuase She offered Her own Son, flesh of Her flesh, bone of Her bone, Heart of Her Heart, and since he Himself was her very own Heart, the apple of Her eye for those who misunderstand me, She suffered an inexplicable anguish…).

To say that Mary would hinder our salvation in which She Herself participated in a unique manner is blasphemous and rather clumsy. However, I can understand that maybe Miss Emmerich depicted the Blessed Virgin in this way so as to make Her seem compassionate and there is nothing wrong with that at all (!). But, she would have been more successful if she did not make Mary trying to save Her Son’s neck by that way. It would have made Mary more merciful (Mary our Mother so loved the world that She gave us Her only Son), more powerful (Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace just as Christ is the Mediator. She has the power to offer her SOn to the Father), and more intelligent (We call Mary Seat of Wisdom. If Mary never sinned yet at the same time tried saving Her Son from dying such a death, well, She must not have known that Christ was saving the entire human race. Whats wrong with this picture? Not onlydid She know what Christ was doing, She knew that Her Son was to miraculiusly wake up, and She never wavered in Her hope in Him. Away with the perverse tales of fiendish fundamentalists!)
 
very good post; however without being at all involved with any of those readings its pretty hard to conceive that Jesus could fall but Mary could not faint. I’m sure that the argument for that is pretty complex and involved.
 
Another mistake occured when she recounts the fifth Joyful Mystery (do I have to mention it? Oh fine, it’s the loss and finding of Jesus in the temple. Want me to quote the event from Scripture? Do it yourself!). In it, and this is something very, very blasphemous, When Mary and Joseph find out that Jesus is in the temple disputing with the priests, showing off His knowledge. When Mary and Joseph called Him, Jesus instead of coming to them told them (rather drily) that he had to finish his business and THEN he came and went with his parents

What is wrong with this picture? Not only the alleged severity and harshness which ‘jesu’s’ displayed towards his parents which, by the way is the main blasphemy here, but also, Jesus is here depicted as being proud and haughty. Could the impeccable Christ be peccable? Could Dan Brown be right? Could it be that pigs can fly and that scientists found the planet ping pong in the year 29, 000 trillion AD? Could be… unless Emmerich’s visuions were only fallible meditations, in which case the judgement of the Church stand on firm ground. So much for Da Vinci!

Another mistake, and the main one here is, that Emmerich does not make the Blessed Virgin seem to have such a great role in our salvation. If I may say, She even depicts the Blessed Virgin as being somewhat uniterested in Her adopted Children, as I said above; She even says in the part of the Annunciation that She [Mary] thought that when the Angel Gabriel came and announced to Her that Her Son was to make and rule over a Kingdom, the Angel meant that it was not going to be a spiritual Kingdom but an earthly one.

The Jews (especially the pre-Zionist Pharisees) thought that the Messiah’s kingdom was earthly; the devout, the Prophets and the Patriarchs knew other wise. They knew that the Church was Spiritual (although visibal), and Mary, Queen of Prophets knew this, at the very least at the moment which the Angel announced to Her that She was to be the Mother of God. Becuase, if She accepted the title of Mother of God yet, did not know that the Kingdom of Her Son was to be spiritual AND that She was to be not only Mother of God but Mother of the Church, etc… She would have accepted only Her role as Mother of God with Her whole will. Her role as Mother of the Church would have come by accident so She would not have chosen to be our Mother with Her whole Will and therefore, with Her whole heart. This would mean that Mary never gave us a thought and would diminish Her love for us, which of course is definitely something impossible!

On top of all that, Emmerich exegarates the ceremonies surrounding Mary’s Presentation when She was four years very much. We do not read of Her Presentation as some sort of ceremony where everything is simple (there of course, we can surmise, was a sort of feast such as when two people are about to get married or when a girl enter’s the religous life), but instead, Emmerich gives us a Carnival with a lot of dancing and instrument and all that.

Joachim dies before Mary’s marraige to Saint Joseph but Anna stays alive, marries again and has two daughters. Anna, who takes care of Mary’s marraige, instead of trying to persuade her daughter and being worried that maybe her sweet Virginal daughter may lose Her purity and Virginity or worse, break the vow which She made, instead encourages Her daughter to give Herself to a man (though I admit that Joseph is never depited as wanting carnal things from Mary. The very idea nerves me as it insults the Blessed Virgin who would have lost such an immense gift from God and it hurts Saint Joseph who is called ‘the Protector of Mary’s Virginity’!).

Worse, Emmerich depicts Mary as losing Her confidence in God (sort of…). Mary, when they plan to marry Her off in the book/novel/Emmerichs manuscript goes off and cries and weeps becuase She convinced herself that she will not remain a virgin. Then suddenly, when she enters Joseph’s house, she tells him that she made a vow of virginity and since he tells her that he will respect it, she becomes confident in God again. There is a plot hole here, a plot hole which is blashemous, as the real Virgin Mary, although She did obey God when He told Her that She had to marry, She still trusted in God that He will preserve Her purity and Virginity. And pure and Virgininal the Blessed Virgin did stay! And confident in God did She stay!
 
…the Blessed Virgin fainted. This is heresy, as God would never allow His Mother who is all perfect to lose the use of Her reason.
Fainting does not cause the loss of reason, just the loss of consciousness.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason

Would God not let her sleep because doing so would supposedly cause her to loose her “use of reason”?
She Herself would have willingly crucified Him if it was necessary.
:eek:
I wouldn’t go around saying this.
Thou shalt not kill.
Mary would not kill her own son **this **is heresy.

🤷
 
1. Emmerichs writings on the life of Christ and Mary are not true, autenthic visions but are rather, as the publishers say, meditations.
Hi Philip, the first thing to keep in mind here is that we’re talking about visions, and visions can require interpretation. And just because a prophet of God receives a divine vision does not mean they necessarily have the charism to infallibly interpret it.
Emmerich says that in a few instances (at the Flagelation of Christ and the carraige of the Cross) the Blessed Virgin fainted. This is heresy, as God would never allow His Mother who is all perfect to lose the use of Her reason.
That is a very strong charge. I hope you will withdraw it:

According to a tradition, His Blessed Mother met Jesus as He was carrying His cross to Golgotha. The Itinerarium of the Pilgrim of Bordeaux describes the memorable sites which the writer visited A.D. 333, but it does not mention any locality sacred to this meeting of Mary and her Divine Son. [87] The same silence prevails in the so-called Peregrinatio Silviae which used to be assigned to A.D. 385, but has lately been placed in A.D. 533-540. [88] But a plan of Jerusalem, dating from the year 1308, shows a Church of St. John the Baptist with the inscription “Pasm. Vgis.”, Spasmus Virginis, the swoon of the Virgin. During the course of the fourteenth century Christians began to locate the spots consecrated by the Passion of Christ, and among these was the place was the place where Mary is said to have fainted at the sight of her suffering Son. (Catholic Encyclopedia)
Another mistake occurs again inside the Passion, where hrist is in the danger of being sentenced to death. Here, Emmerich makes Mary trying to hinder Her Son from getting excecuted and crucified.
Please give a citation for this. I don’t remember it off the top of my head, but do remember:

“My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me.” (Matthew 26:39)

Our Lord was simply demonstrating that the flesh is weak, but those who are obedient to the will of God can overcome the weakness of the flesh, by cooperating with His grace, and conforming their will to His. No doubt, His Blessed Mother did not want to bear seeing her Son go through His Passion, but as always she conformed her will to His.

For the record, I do believe that Blessed Sr. Emmerich received visions from God. But that does not mean she remembered them perfectly (she often said she didn’t), or that she always interpreted them correctly, or that we have a completely accurate record of what she said. Always remember:

“Test everything. Hold on to the good.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

God bless.
 
I think Jesus fell more with pain then with fainting, as He could not lose the use of His reason (except when dying of course), RB2.

2. Emmerich has racist tendencies.

This is what forced me to write this refutation of Catherine Emmerich, and it is her allged racism. At first, I merely denouned this as Wikipedia’s bluff but then after seeing another bit of her writing, I decalred to myself and to Mary that She was most definitely a racist for saying these things. Just look at what she said (taken from wikipedia):

In the Bible, it is recounted how Noah got drunk and went to sleep totally naked. His son, Ham, pouncing upon him went to tell his brothers (with carnal delight) but they, instead of making fun of their dad, grabbed a claok and covered him (although when he woke up and after breakfast, they gave him a sharp rebuke!). Noah as a punishment curses… Ham’s son, Canaan. And here’s what Miss Emmerich has to say, this ‘theologian’ who inspires lay theologians!

“I saw the curse pronounced by Noah upon Ham moving toward the latter like a black cloud and obscuring him. His skin lost its whiteness, he grew darker. His sin was the sin of sacrilege, the sin of one who would forcibly enter the Ark of the Covenant. I saw a** most corrupt race **descend from Ham and sink deeper and deeper in darkness. I see that the black, idolatrous, stupid nations are the descendants of Ham. Their color is due, not to the rays of the sun, but to the dark source whence those degraded races sprang”.

Oh really? Then does that mean that God ‘cursed’'America becuase of it’s freemasonic presidents by sending us African American’s? Oh please, for Pete’s sake what on earth are you saying?! I more than once, to speak in a non prurient way though, pounced upon my dad in the bathroom in the past (not now obviously. Do not let your kid’s enter the bathroom when your in it and I am not joking.) yet I never became black!

Black People don’t even have black skin; the body produces more melanin than those of white people which gives one a dark skin tone and that is it. I heard some guy say that the color of a man’s skin is as significant as the color of his eye.

Corrupt race indeed! Races are not corrupt, it is people which are corrupt. Every race has it’s own corrupt people: there are rapists who are white as well as black, robbers who are black and white. We have famous people whop are corrupt. America has got George W. Bush, African American’s have got Obama, Africans have Idi Amin Dada, Russia has Vladimir Lenin, the Jews have the Pharisees and Ariel Sharon, Italy has Victor Emmanuel and Garibaldi, France has the French Revolution with all it’s fanatical followers, Spain has it’s Communist leaders, and well, I can’t mention anymore, I’m tired out.

Then again, every race has it’s own heroes. Spanish people have their mystical Saints such as Saint Teresa and their Spanish descended President of Ecuador Gabriel Garcia Moreno; America has Saint Rose of Lima, Martin de Porres, Elizabeth Anne Seton, Abraham Lincoln (even though he almost did become a Freemason!), African people have Charles Lwanga and Companions, England has Saint Anselm and Saint Thomas of Canterbury and Saint Thomas More; France has the Little Flower, the Cure of Ars, Lourdes, La Salette and many other appartions; Italy has the Vatican, Siant Gemma and phew! so many Italian Saints!; Poland has a favorite of mine, and it is Saint Maximilian Maria Kolbe.

Anyway, after that huge list, I have to get to the point: it is said that from Ham’s son, Canaan descended the African people. What the curse probably consisted of was not that Canaan’s children became black but rather, they were driven to Africa amidst all those wild anmals and all those hard conditions, and that’s it.

I’m not even going to say that black people have rights, that they are human and all that. It’s obvious they are people, everone of us is human. Whether your English, Irish, Spanish, African, American, African-American, Arabic, Moor, Chinese, Japanese and all that, I can go on and on, makes no diffirence. Mary loves all of us, She does not care what race we are in. She even appears to take the charactheristics of the region where She’s appearing so as to appeal more and more to the visionary or to Her client. She has numerous pictures depicting Her with black skin; She appeared to the suffering Chinese with Oriental feautres. If black people are so bad, why not arrest the Chinese? Their country is communist! Wait! we can’t because we don’t think like silly Aryan idiots!
 
This is what forced me to write this refutation of Catherine Emmerich, and it is her allged racism. At first, I merely denouned this as Wikipedia’s bluff but then after seeing another bit of her writing, I decalred to myself and to Mary that She was most definitely a racist for saying these things. Just look at what she said (taken from wikipedia):
You cannot make a serious argument based on something you read off of Wikipedia.
 
I don;t think Emmerich visions are meant o be interpreted just like how the Scriptures are or like how the Apocalypse is (except when there is obvious symbolism present, such as her creative depiction of the Immaculate Conception).

If Mary crucified Her Son, She would not have exactly been murdering Him but sacrificing Him. She woudn’t be killing Him without God’s permission becuase THEN that would be murder. God permitted Jesus to be killed so Mary would not only have not sinned, but would have gained merit had She crucified Her Son… and He’d be pleased!

I am British. Mary loves all of us equally as I have said. it is also said that there were some three Popes who were African back in the early days of the Church. Slavery can never be justified, even though the Catholic Church in America failed to go against slavery (this was not becuase the Bishops there were racist but becuase, many Bishops were cowards. They could not, for love of Mary go and stand in the pulpit and speak against slavery and racism. Similiar to the case of those Bishops from Baltimore who refrained from spekaing against Freemasonry for fear of harm being done to them. The people ended up being more Masonic than Catholic!).

Whatever Emmerich said was rubbish and very racist. What angered me is that she sort of did not show these oppressed races sympathy. True, that Africa, before it got converted had a lot of pagans in it and people weren’t exactly smart, living in the wilderness and all that but still, they were only people. Pople of diffirent races whould be treated equally, despite being victims of apertheid or not, of oppression from evil freemaosns or not.

Conclusion.

And so, I conclude this thread. It just goes to show that not everything which a Saint or a holy person may have said is true or pure Church doctrine. Saint Thomas More even wrote (not with bad intentions) his Communist Utopia. In all honesty and without being presumptous, I don’t even believe that Emmerich was all that holy now, especially after saying such things. She gives the Church a bad name. I don’t imagine Saint Gemma or Saint Therese being racist. I don’t imagine the priests, all those Salesian Missionaries, both men and women reviling and hunting down the people whom they’re supposed to teach. Well? Only a racist idiot would disagree with me, as that is the only decent description which racism deserves.
 
Emmerich says that in a few instances (at the Flagelation of Christ and the carraige of the Cross) the Blessed Virgin fainted. This is heresy, as God would never allow His Mother who is all perfect to lose the use of Her reason.
I am sorry, but I stopped reading here.

Heresy is defined by the Church in the Catechism of the Catholic Church;
2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
And the Code of Canon Law;
Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Please show me where in Church Teaching we are bound to believe that Mary never fainted.

Also note that the writings of a saint, while laudible, are not dogma nor infallible. So a phamphlet writen by St Cajetan is not such evidence.
 
Philip, you are being awfully uncharitable here to a person who happens to be beatified, which means she may very well be enjoying the Beatific Vision as we speak. The Church demands the utmost respect if not veneration of those She has declared to be “Blessed” - for the good of our own souls! You are making yourself the judge of what is in Sr. Emmerich’s heart. Not to mention you seem to be assuming that she never repented for her alleged sins. Lord have mercy on you.
 
Frankly speaking, I see a false and shallow intellectualism at work here.

I’m out of here.
Train wreck.
 
I have to admit I’m not a great fan of the writings of Anne Emmerich but I think the OP is one can short of a six-pack!
 
I have to admit I’m not a great fan of the writings of Anne Emmerich but I think the OP is one can short of a six-pack!
lol, I don’t always agree with you, but this time i think you are on the right track. We can find something wrong with anything if we get creative 🙂
 
However, I doubt whether the Church shall canonize this here woman, especially after analyzing here writings which are riddled with ‘plot holes’, which in this case means that her writings have alot of things which contradict Church teaching; and I’m going to show you what things this ‘visionary’s’ writings include, and the removal of some misconceptions from people’s heads.
With all due respect, you’re very late for the trial. Before a person is beatified, they are declared Venerable. Before the person is declared Venerable, his life is studied exhaustively. His writings are gathered and analyzed by three commissions. The Promotor of the Cause and his team have the duty to gather the information that proves that the person led a heroic life of Christian virtue. He also has to prove that there is nothing in the person’s life and writings that is deliberately in conflict with sound Catholic doctrine and Revelation.

When the Promotor of the Cause has exhausted his case, the Defender of the Faith steps in. This is the official that used to be called the Devil’s Advocate. The new title actually describes his job much better. He and his team must find every possible error and every possible fault that would disqualify the person from being venerated by the Church.

If the Defender of the Faith can find nothing in the person’s writings or life, he surrenders his case to the Promotor of the Cause. The documentation is sent to a third commission of Cardinal theologians who examine everything that has been debated and decided. They act on behalf of the Church, not the candidate. It is their job to make sure that the Defender of the Faith and his team did not miss anything. If they find everything is well, they send the matter to the Holy Father with a recommendation that the person be publicly declared Venerable and that the study of the person’s life and writings be closed.

The Holy Father personally reviews everything and when he is satisfied, he closes the study. He then sends back a Motu Proprio to the Sacred Congregation for the Causes of Saints directing them to write the decree that the person is truly Venerable, that he has lived a heroic life of Christian virtue and he has never DELIBERATELY taught anything contrary to the faith.
Once the decree is made public, it is binding on all the faithful. The person’s case cannot be reopened. The person’s writings may not be restudied and the next stage begins . . . the study of any alleged miracles.

Those miracles undergo the same scrupulous examination. When it finally reaches the Holy Father, he has the authority to beatify the person. From there begins the last stage of the process, the study of a second miracle. If there are no miracles, there are two options. The pope can wait, which is the usual or he can bypass and canonize, which has been done three times.

As far as Catherine is concerned, there was nothing in her life and writings that was DELIBERATELY contrary to the Scriptures, Tradition or the Magisterium. Therefore, she went on to become Venerable. A miracle was proven.

This discussion about her writings and the suggestion that they be examined or that they are going to be examined is mistaken. They have been examined and will not be examined again, not for this purpose. They may be examined by theologians and historians for scholarly purposes, but her life and teachings are no longer under scrutiny, nor can they ever be again. A Motu Proprio has been written and signed declaring her to be virtuous and faithful to Catholic Dogma and Tradition.

What you’re proposing is not possible. What you’re reading into her writings is not what the three commissions saw. You’re pitting your opinion against their findings. When you have a miracle, there is no turning back. To say that Catherine believed error and intentionally taught error is like saying that the commissions and the pope allowed it to slip under the radar and you caught it.

As Brother David correctly pointed out, saints are not infallible. St. Thomas Aquinas believed error and taught error. But he did not know that it was error or he would not have taught it. He taught that Mary was cleansed from Original sin while in her mother’s womb and that it was impossible for her to be conceived without sin.

St. Francis of Assisi believed error and taught error. He did not know that it was error. He taught that the pope was always infallible and he wrote it into his rule. He bound his brothers to obey, without ever questioning. Strangely enough, the definition and conditions for infallibility were finally settled at Vatican I. However, when asked, the Holy See said that the Rule could not be touched and that the Franciscan Order is still bound to obey everything that the pope teachers, mistaken or not, without ever questioning or doubting. Because obedience is a virtue, regardless of the pope’s errors and those of St. Francis.

Many saints, in the passion of devotion and piety have said many things that are not so, but the Church has allowed them to proceed with the process, because the Church knows that if the saint or blessed had known, they would not have said what they said. This is the key right here. To be guilty of the things that you claim, there has to be knowledge and choice. You would have to prove that Catherine knew that these were errors and chose to teach them. Then you would have to prove that the whole process was a sham, because they let it slip under the radar and you discovered their duplicity. Good luck on that one.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
There is a reason that theologians are part of the group who research issues concerning sainthood, and why these things are no longer left to the hoity toity unwashed masses. One might ponder whether or not this thread might be ample justification for such a change from the past. Not that Rome would have need to consult herein…
 
The canonization process, as we know it today, began with the second millennium. Prior to that, there were only Episcopal Canonizations. That’s how you get some saints in the Oriental Churches and others in the Roman Church. The process was not centralized.

Even before the process was ever centralized, two things have never changed. First, even Episcopal canonizations ran past the pope, though he was not the one doing the canonizing. Second, canonization is an infallible decree. We can’t pick and choose whom we venerate.

I can pick and choose my devotions. That’s a horse of a different color. I cannot choose whom I venerate. I’ll offer an example. In the diocese where I am, there are two new parishes: Bl. John XXIII and Bl. Teresa of Calcutta. Some people who called themselves “traditionalists” objected to the latter, because Bl. Teresa of Calcutta “prayed with non-Christians” and because she said, “If you’re a Jew, be a good Jew; a Muslim must be a good Muslim; and a Hindu a good Hindu,” etc. The response from the Church was that people were free to disagree with her. But they were not free to refuse her as the patron of their parish. Once the Vatican says that you venerate, venerate you must. One act of veneration for blessed and saints is to make them patrons of parishes and other religious organizations and institutions. The bishop who erected those parishes was very clear that to leave the parish, because one does not wish to honor the patron is to unjustifiable.

He did not say that there would be consequences. WHAT FOLLOWS IS MY OPINION. My guess is that if you try to get married in another parish and you are asked why you don’t do it in your canonical parish, you may be embarrassed when you have to say that you don’t like the patron or you don’t agree with the selection of the patron. Of course, the receiving pastor can then turn you back to your parish, since you do not have a good reason not to marry there.

I’m not trying to derail the thread to talk about marriage. I’m giving an example of mandatory veneration. If Catherine were the patron of your parish, you have no choice but to accept that. Otherwise, how can you justify trying to get sacraments in another parish, in those cases where the permission of the home pastor is required, such as marriage. Do you say that you don’t want to marry in that parish, because you don’t want to acknowledge Catherine or because you believe that you know something about her that the Church does not know? If you say something like that, the Church can come back and say that the problem is not Catherine. The problem is you. So . . . you don’t want to go there.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I believe that the OP is one of those “hit and run” posters.

He does not seem interested in discussion as he has not posted any replies. It appears more likely that he posted this thread in an attempt to “teach” us something rather than discuss something that was his own opinion.
 
I believe that the OP is one of those “hit and run” posters.

He does not seem interested in discussion as he has not posted any replies. It appears more likely that he posted this thread in an attempt to “teach” us something rather than discuss something that was his own opinion.
Well I certainly do hope that he is listening, and realizes the many errors that he made that have been pointed out by his brethren. And hopefully next time he will learn first and then teach! Although he should be forewarned:

“Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.” (James 3:1)
 
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