Against Catherine Emmerich

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MarkInOregon said:
I’ll be the first to admit that I am not all that sharp–so would you please explain to me how fainting equates to the loss of the ability to reason? Would this line of thought also mean that Mary could not sleep? Could you please elaborate on this point – and can you also point out the official Church teaching this speculation contradicts (something more than a pamphlet even if its by a Saint - as not everything Saints have written through the centuries agree with Church dogma).

Pardon my ignorance–but is Mary “all perfect” and is this official church teaching? This is an area that I have not studied much. I know she was saved or preserved from original sin and remained sinless but that fact that she needed to be saved from it would imply to my feeble mind that she was not “all perfect”. When I hear “all perfect” that starts to sound like deification and makes me uncomfortable. I guess it depends on how we define and what we mean by “all perfect”

Peace of Christ
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Let’s put Catherine aside for a moment. Mary was perfect. But we must understand the concept of perpection as the Church understands it. Remember, the Church has a long tradition of using philosophy to speak. Words do not always convey the same meaning that you would find in Webster’s Dictionary.

There are degrees of perfection. God is perfection itself. Mary is not. She is not God. Then there is human perfection. This certainly would apply to Mary. But to understand this, one has to understand the Immaculate Conception. She was saved. However, she did not have to wait for the cross. The cross reaches beyond the boundaries of time and space. Mary was saved before she was conceived.

She was conceived without sin. Therefore, she was not only preserved from sin, but she was also preserved from all of the consequences of Original Sin. When Catholics and Orthodox speak about Mary’s perfection, she is the perfect human being. Other than Christ, no other human being every achieved the degree of human perfection that she achieved. One must understand that human perfection is not what the dictionary defines it to be. Could Mary solve an algebra problem? Of course not. However, that is not necessary to be perfect. I use this example, because some people attribute things such as intelligence, knowledge, beauty, achievments, physical abilities and other temporal things to human perfection. This is not the case with philosophy. Philosophy looks at the soul or the spirit of the person. Was she spiritually perfect? Yes she was. There was no flaw in her. Was she preserved from all the imperfections that come from Original Sin? Yes,because she never had contact with Original Sin.

All that being said, she did have all of the normal traits of a human being. We know that she aged. She was not born an adolescent. We know that she got hungry and ate, because Jesus got hungry and ate. We know that she felt pain, because Jesus felt pain. We know that she could die, because Jesus died. On this last point, their is an unanswered question. We know that she could die, but we do not know if she did die. The Orthodox and the Oriental Catholics always refer to her last day on earth as her dormition. The Roman Catholics simply call it her Assumption. We do not call it her death. The tradition speaks of her earthyly life ending. It does not say that she died. There can be a difference between one’s earthly journey coming to an end and one dying. Notice, I said “can be”. We just don’t know. We’ll have to wait until we get to heaven to find out if she actually died or simply fell asleep and was taken to heaven.

I hope that helps you regarding Mary’s perfection.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
It seems to me a vague description of oneself, marian, for if you truly new our BVM, you would know how to venerate those exalted by the Bride of Christ…I have seen my own family acknowledge themselves Catholic, for though they believe? how much so, when it comes to ones daily actions and decisions based on ones Christian roots…Those in the body of Christ build up the Kingdom on earth…yet I see many Judas in the Church today, one has to be lead by the Spirit in order to discern the ways of the Spirit…Our Lord is the perfect example of those within the flesh…juding one in the Spirit…for our Lord was the perfect man of the Spirit…and all his teachings were plain truths…yet they confounded the intellectuals who thought they new the ways of creation…which in essence are the creative ways of God…My blessed sister Catherine is a most noble example of a Christian, and though her words mite cause a stumbling block for others…her fruits are attested by the Bride of Christ…Who is the true voice of God!.. may God enlighten the wayward…prayers to those in need:signofcross:
 
I believe that this “thread” is the result of someone skipping their anxiety medication.
 
mangy_dog said:
I believe that this “thread” is the result of someone skipping their anxiety medication.
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I believe that personal attacks such as this are out of place here at Catholic Answers Forums.
 
I’m not quite sure why I feel compelled to weigh in on this topic… Maybe because I’ve read and been inspired by Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich?

As far as I’m concerned, my position toward her, courtesy of the Vatican, is that “*n serving the work of salvation through faith and love, Anna Katharina Emmerick can be a model for us.” vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20041003_emmerick_en.html

Do I believe that everything she dictated and has come down to us over the years in translation was factually and historically perfectly true? Maybe it’s not. But, I don’t know for certain (although I sure do wonder!), and perhaps it’s not all that important anyway. The bottom line is that she offers me considerably more in the way of spiritual nourishment than do most of the sometimes amateurish, sometimes off-the-wall arguments against her that I’ve read here.*
 
JReducation said:
Let’s put Catherine aside for a moment. Mary was perfect. But we must understand the concept of perpection as the Church understands it. Remember, the Church has a long tradition of using philosophy to speak. Words do not always convey the same meaning that you would find in Webster’s Dictionary.

There are degrees of perfection. God is perfection itself. Mary is not. She is not God. Then there is human perfection. This certainly would apply to Mary. But to understand this, one has to understand the Immaculate Conception. She was saved. However, she did not have to wait for the cross. The cross reaches beyond the boundaries of time and space. Mary was saved before she was conceived.

She was conceived without sin. Therefore, she was not only preserved from sin, but she was also preserved from all of the consequences of Original Sin. When Catholics and Orthodox speak about Mary’s perfection, she is the perfect human being. Other than Christ, no other human being every achieved the degree of human perfection that she achieved. One must understand that human perfection is not what the dictionary defines it to be. Could Mary solve an algebra problem? Of course not. However, that is not necessary to be perfect. I use this example, because some people attribute things such as intelligence, knowledge, beauty, achievments, physical abilities and other temporal things to human perfection. This is not the case with philosophy. Philosophy looks at the soul or the spirit of the person. Was she spiritually perfect? Yes she was. There was no flaw in her. Was she preserved from all the imperfections that come from Original Sin? Yes,because she never had contact with Original Sin.

All that being said, she did have all of the normal traits of a human being. We know that she aged. She was not born an adolescent. We know that she got hungry and ate, because Jesus got hungry and ate. We know that she felt pain, because Jesus felt pain. We know that she could die, because Jesus died. On this last point, their is an unanswered question. We know that she could die, but we do not know if she did die. The Orthodox and the Oriental Catholics always refer to her last day on earth as her dormition. The Roman Catholics simply call it her Assumption. We do not call it her death. The tradition speaks of her earthyly life ending. It does not say that she died. There can be a difference between one’s earthly journey coming to an end and one dying. Notice, I said “can be”. We just don’t know. We’ll have to wait until we get to heaven to find out if she actually died or simply fell asleep and was taken to heaven.

I hope that helps you regarding Mary’s perfection.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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Thank you for your many exellent posts. My concern was that we understand Marys “perfection” correctly. From the OP’s tone and somethings he said - I got the feeling of something more than you describe above – you mentioned in one of your posts - the statement about Mary giving her only son.

Again thank you for your clear and exellent posts.

Peace of Christ.
 
If I understood the last post correctly about my tone in writing this thread… wait a minute, I never said that Mary wasn’t perfect, sooner would I hang myself than believe She wasn’t perfect!

That’s all I have to say.
 
philipmarie said:
If I understood the last post correctly about my tone in writing this thread… wait a minute, I never said that Mary wasn’t perfect, sooner would I hang myself than believe She wasn’t perfect!

That’s all I have to say.
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I believe there is a misunderstand here. It was not you, but another poster asked how we understand Mary’s perfection. I tried to explain how so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Oh ok thanks. May Mary bless you. I have to unsubscribe from this thread. It would be a waste of time to to post on a pointless thread.

However, I still have one thing to say: one should note that when Adam and Eve were conceived, they were utterly innocent and sinless, without original sin. Their bodies did not age so much. The Bible says that Adam died when he was a whopping 900 years! It also says that God changed this almost millenial life span of men to a hundred a twenty years (Gen 6:3 DRB). Adam could not have been an old person when he reached 80, else when he was 800 years old, he would have been looking older and more old fashioned then even my grandpa(oh ok, maybe not THAT old)!

Church teaching also says that in Adam and Eve’s state of innocence, the human body would not die but would be taken straight up to heaven; there was no carnal pleasure in sexual intercourse; and no, it does not mean that men, even if he did not fall would no have suffered. He still would have suffered but he would not have suffered death and he certainly would not have suffered from the sins of others. And no, this does not mean that Jesus and Mary would never have existed. They would still have existed (in Jesus’ case, His HUman Nature would have been created of course!) as a special gift of God to men. And yes, clothes would eventually get invented. God would not allow anybody, even if he did not get any disgusting thoughts in his head to look upon the body of His most chaste Spouse but enough of this, it’s too off topic.

Anyway, Adam and Eve fell and not only did we have original sin but also it’s effects. Death, more suffering and even aging. Mary, we all admit and believe, was NOT subject to original sin, not even for a nano second. We also believe and hold that She really did suffer, more than anyone else. I bet She suffered from everybody else’s dislike, from maybe even spiritual aridity. But what I (based upon the teachings of the Church and theologians) do not think She suffered from were the temptations of the flesh (Her Virginal purity would not suffer any assualt), from sickness (the body being subject to all sorts of attacks from nature) and from the aging in which we see so much in old people. I’m just saying that, if Mary was 79 years old (or 69 years old from some sources which state the age of which She died), She would have looked like a fair, beautiful 40 year old woman.

I’m not being discriminatory to old persons! although their are probably MANY who abuse their situation to gain ther perverse pleasures (I once reada story were an old pervert tried to rape a little 8 year old girl on a bus… with her stupid, unloving mother letting him:mad:. I was so angry with what happened).
 
There is one last thing I need to mention, and it is this: I once debated with a friend of mine whom I found out just recently was a fundamentalist Baptist (he didn’t even tell me what religion he was in and he kept insisting on teaching me, not giving me chance to even speak!), and, even though he really does deserve sympathy and he proably did not know what he was doing, I hated his presumption. He, along with the majority of fundamentalists, pride themselves with possesing the ‘true word of god’. He kept on being smug and raising his head in the air, until I told him where on earth it is mentioned that Christ told his disciples to write anything (he raised his head in thought).

I also hate it when certain ‘priests’, (in ‘’, becuase they certainly don’t act as good Priests) give sermons which do not bear any instruction. They try to sound solemn and big; they try to impress the congregation; when Benedict visited Malta, the bishop gave a sermon which was, without the intention of being unkind, so dumb and so non-sensical, so empty and dry, that even Benedict kept gaping in amazement at the bishop. The bishop wasn’t trying to bring people to rejoice around God and Mary with such a ‘great’ visit, he was just trying to impress the pope and to sound impressive and great.

When we speak about Mary (and anything else Catholic for that matter!), we should do it with humility. Don’t speak for the ska eof speaking but rather drop the honey of devotion in each othe’r’s ears; make things easy to understand. Speak casually, as if your talking about a very dear friend. Speak as if your talking about your very, very dear girlfriend or Spouse. Yet, always speak with modesty! Do not speak in such a way that your companion may feel inferior to you becuase your talking about Mary. We are not like rubbish, secular teachers who look down on children, smile indulgently and go off on their business. We should be like the Salesians and the Daughters of Mary, Help of Christians who become one with their children. They become the life and soul of their children’s recreations. They do not stand in the middle of the playground and tell their students and children that we should pray and pray; they actually go and encourage them to pray.

I study literature and recently read alot of the Harry Potter books (which, in all honesty are not satanic, although there are certain rude jokes which should be removed!) and have read reviews of the utterly dirty/stupid/dumb Twilight series. The latter books make you feel nausous and desparing, what, with seeing the main character being so perfect and all that while we are here stranded without having such a ‘hot’ (impirely seductive rather) vampire as a boyfriend. Somebody said that Twilight is so popular, ot becuase of it’s plot (which is dumb), or it’s characters (which are dumber) but becuase girls can imagine themselves to be Bella the main character and pretend that Edward the abusive, rough and cruel vsmpire is their boyfriend.

This is not healthy for children. They pretend to be what they are not and live in their own dreamworld, doing nothing but wasting time. Whereas in Harry Potter, we have not only characters who are not perfect (so that we can relate to them), not only do we have a realistic setting (even though it is set ina magical world, we still feel that Hogwarts is so real!), not only is the morality fairly good (despite J. K Rowling being an Anglican, she does give her character’s fairly good morality and the character’s show that they are inseprable in the end, despite suffering from each other’s faults during the series) but we have character’s who inspire us to do good and to learn from their misakes. We feel sympathy for them; we suffer with them when they suffer; we cheer for them, not kneel down and let them glare at us with anger.

The same it is with the saints. There are Saints lives which exagerate their virtues and miracles so much that we are forced to say: '‘Huh? What the-’. On the other hand, we have Saints lives which shw what the saint’s were: ordinary people who suffered just like us and who were devoted to Mary. Even though we read of their ecstasies and their miracles, we do not stay open mouthed at them, we sort of feel their happiness at these miracles, we cheer for them, and leave us hoping in the Blessed Virgin that maybe She too will help us be just like them.
 
The same is to be said of Mary. Whereas God, the Ftaher the Son and the Holy Spirit (ahem! I hope nobody accuses me of showing God as nasty becuase I certainly am not!) fills us with awe because of His infinity, He, being the Sun which can blind us becuase of it’s light, it is not so with Mary. She is the moon which reflects the light of the sun and give it unto us. With Her, we can appreach God with all confidence seeing as we have a Mediator with the Mediator… and we have no fear of intruding upon Her or of displeasing Jesus Christ.

Saint Therese said that Mary is more Mother than Queen. She said that Mary would not eclipse the glory of Saints when they went to heaven but that, becuase of Her and Her love for us, Mary would increase the glory of the Saints. It is definitely unreasonable to say that despite Mary, we still have access to God. It is thorugh Her and with Her that we have access to God. Just as Spouses become Saints, not despite of Marraige but through and in marraige they become Saints.
 
I am still unclear where saying that Mary fainted is a heresy.
 
Thank you. I am an African American Catholic and I love the Catholic religion. I was doing some research on Ethiopia and came across Catherine Emmeric’s writing about black skin being cursed. What am I to do with that. I am in tears. Praying and asking God why. I am truly about to loose my faith. Please pray for me…I have Catherine Emmeric’s picture in my livingroom and I can’t even look at it anymore. I pray for answers.The Holy Mother has watched out for me all my life. I take comfort in knowing she will help me with this also.
philipmarie said:
Through the Blessed Mother, Queen of all nations and Queen of Czestochowa,

And, before some simple minded person accuses me of being, ahem, a sceptic, don’t. I am not a sceptic :D, I’m a Marian Catholic who just wishes to please his Heavenly Mother.

Everybody here has heard about Catherine Emmerich. She was a German mystic who allegedly had the stigmata, had ‘visions’, and who was found incorrupt after her death. She has been ‘beatified’ by John Paul II and is awaiting canonization.

However, I doubt whether the Church shall canonize this here woman, especially after analyzing here writings which are riddled with ‘plot holes’, which in this case means that her writings have alot of things which contradict Church teaching; and I’m going to show you what things this ‘visionary’s’ writings include, and the removal of some misconceptions from people’s heads.
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I went to the actual writings of Catherine Emmerich and she never said anything negative about black skin, unless I missed it. That was some Wiki garbage. Thank God and Holy Mary. I was so worried. I love being a black Catholic.
 
Well, I’ve read Catherine Emmerich’s writings and can’t find anything definite that contradicts anything in Catholic teaching.

Also, her meditations and visions reflected her deep spirituality and devotion to our Lord’s Passion. At no time does she or anyone make the claim that she is seeing the Passion of Christ as it actually happened.

If that were so, there would be seven Falls of our Lord beneath the Cross on the Via Crucis, not three as in the contemporary stations of the Cross (although there was a devotion to the seven Falls under the Cross at one time).

Let Bl. Catherine’s Process be spared our persnickety observations!

Alex
 
Well Sharon, it really may be some Wiki garbage. Just because it is wikipedia doesn’t mean it’s accurate. I will pray for you and know that the Blessed Virgin loves you as Her own dear child:).
 
Writings of any mystic are beyond the natural relaity of man/women, often hidden meanings are reflected in words, I myself love the Passion narrative if you have never read this…make it a must…a prayer of healing…push out the negative and raise your heart to God and the Saints Listen to Mary she is truly present among us…her faithful son Paul Timothy Praise Be Jesus, Totus Tuus :signofcross::angel1:
 
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