Against Free-Will

  • Thread starter Thread starter Perplexity
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

Perplexity

Guest
I’d like to outline a reason for doubting that free-will exists:

There are different kinds of freedoms of the will. The one we’re concerned with is that which is necessary for us to be morally responsible agents. An agent is morally responsible for an action if she’d deserve praise or credit if she understood that it was morally good, or she’d deserve blame if she understood it was morally bad. She’d deserve these moral predications solely in virtue of her performing the action.

Some say this free-will is compatible with us being determined, others don’t. But, what seems fairly uncontroversial (as much as can be in this field) is that an agent must be the appropriate source of the action in order to have been free with respect to performing it. She must exhibit a certain kind of control over the action in order to be morally responsible for it. If the action is produced randomly, we’d be wont to say the agent was responsible for it. etc.

What I want to suggest is that the free-will required for moral responsibility is incompatible with us being determined, or indetermined. This is good reason to doubt we have it.

I will not be providing my reason for thinking free-will is incompatible with determinism since I know of no determinists here. Rather, I’ll focus on indeterminism and its incompatibility with free-will.

So, let’s suppose that there is some agent, S, and some action A. Suppose that S causally influences the obtaining of A; but, that this causal influence is indetermined. That is, S was not causally determined to produce A.

So, we could even say there is some time, t1, at which S exerts her causal influence, and another time, t2, at which A obtains.

In order for S’s causal influence on A to be indeterministic the sum of all of S’s causal influences on A prior to t2 must be insufficient to bring A about. If that sum suffices to bring about A, then A is determined.

Therefore, taking all of S’s causal contributions collectively, prior to t2, it’s literally up in the air whether A will obtain or not. After taking all the causal conditions antecedent to A’s occurring, S plays no further causal role in whether A occurs. So, if A does happen to occur, it’s not because of S. It’s just a matter of luck whether A happens.

It seems, therefore, quite intuitive to me to say that S doesn’t exhibit the kind of control over A needed in order for S to be morally responsible for A. That is, if A happens to occur, it’d seem quite unnatural for us to ascribe praise or blame to S for A.

But, if an undetermined S isn’t morally responsible for A, then S doesn’t have free-will with respect to A.

I feel confident then in concluding that indeterminism is incompatible with free-will.

Thoughts?
 
Well! Look who’s here! :eek:

He we go again with Perplexity, the King of Quibblers, quibbling anti-Catholic nonsense.
His profile says his “religion” is ‘philosopher’, but argues against any idea that supports religious belief.

How you doing, your majesty of qubbling? Haven’t seen you in a while. Out surveying your kingdom, a vast wasteland of confused lack of believe? 🤷

Easy to understand why you need to “talk” to people here, or anywhere. Must be lonely in your nothing-is-truth world. 😃
 
I’d like to outline a reason for doubting that free-will exists:

There are different kinds of freedoms of the will. The one we’re concerned with is that which is necessary for us to be morally responsible agents. An agent is morally responsible for an action if she’d deserve praise or credit if she understood that it was morally good, or she’d deserve blame if she understood it was morally bad. She’d deserve these moral predications solely in virtue of her performing the action.

Some say this free-will is compatible with us being determined, others don’t. But, what seems fairly uncontroversial (as much as can be in this field) is that an agent must be the appropriate source of the action in order to have been free with respect to performing it. She must exhibit a certain kind of control over the action in order to be morally responsible for it. If the action is produced randomly, we’d be wont to say the agent was responsible for it. etc.

What I want to suggest is that the free-will required for moral responsibility is incompatible with us being determined, or indetermined. This is good reason to doubt we have it.

I will not be providing my reason for thinking free-will is incompatible with determinism since I know of no determinists here. Rather, I’ll focus on indeterminism and its incompatibility with free-will.

So, let’s suppose that there is some agent, S, and some action A. Suppose that S causally influences the obtaining of A; but, that this causal influence is indetermined. That is, S was not causally determined to produce A.

So, we could even say there is some time, t1, at which S exerts her causal influence, and another time, t2, at which A obtains.

In order for S’s causal influence on A to be indeterministic the sum of all of S’s causal influences on A prior to t2 must be insufficient to bring A about. If that sum suffices to bring about A, then A is determined.

Therefore, taking all of S’s causal contributions collectively, prior to t2, it’s literally up in the air whether A will obtain or not. After taking all the causal conditions antecedent to A’s occurring, S plays no further causal role in whether A occurs. So, if A does happen to occur, it’s not because of S. It’s just a matter of luck whether A happens.

It seems, therefore, quite intuitive to me to say that S doesn’t exhibit the kind of control over A needed in order for S to be morally responsible for A. That is, if A happens to occur, it’d seem quite unnatural for us to ascribe praise or blame to S for A.

But, if an undetermined S isn’t morally responsible for A, then S doesn’t have free-will with respect to A.

I feel confident then in concluding that indeterminism is incompatible with free-will.

Thoughts?
You go to McDonalds. You choose an order. Case closed. Free will exists.
 
Well! Look who’s here! :eek:

He we go again with Perplexity, the King of Quibblers, quibbling anti-Catholic nonsense.
His profile says his “religion” is ‘philosopher’, but argues against any idea that supports religious belief.

How you doing, your majesty of qubbling? Haven’t seen you in a while. Out surveying your kingdom, a vast wasteland of confused lack of believe? 🤷

Easy to understand why you need to “talk” to people here, or anywhere. Must be lonely in your nothing-is-truth world. 😃
I was on vacation 👍

Let’s see…hmm…yeah…nothing contributory. Did you read the OP?
 
You go to McDonalds. You choose an order. Case closed. Free will exists.
:rotfl::rotfl::extrahappy:

Loved it, Buck Crosswhite. 👍

Did you notice Perplexity cooked your burger?

:rotfl::rotfl::extrahappy:
 
I’d like to outline a reason for doubting that free-will exists:

There are different kinds of freedoms of the will. The one we’re concerned with is that which is necessary for us to be morally responsible agents. An agent is morally responsible for an action if she’d deserve praise or credit if she understood that it was morally good, or she’d deserve blame if she understood it was morally bad. She’d deserve these moral predications solely in virtue of her performing the action.

Some say this free-will is compatible with us being determined, others don’t. But, what seems fairly uncontroversial (as much as can be in this field) is that an agent must be the appropriate source of the action in order to have been free with respect to performing it. She must exhibit a certain kind of control over the action in order to be morally responsible for it. If the action is produced randomly, we’d be wont to say the agent was responsible for it. etc.

What I want to suggest is that the free-will required for moral responsibility is incompatible with us being determined, or indetermined. This is good reason to doubt we have it.

I will not be providing my reason for thinking free-will is incompatible with determinism since I know of no determinists here. Rather, I’ll focus on indeterminism and its incompatibility with free-will.

So, let’s suppose that there is some agent, S, and some action A. Suppose that S causally influences the obtaining of A; but, that this causal influence is indetermined. That is, S was not causally determined to produce A.

So, we could even say there is some time, t1, at which S exerts her causal influence, and another time, t2, at which A obtains.

In order for S’s causal influence on A to be indeterministic the sum of all of S’s causal influences on A prior to t2 must be insufficient to bring A about. If that sum suffices to bring about A, then A is determined.

Therefore, taking all of S’s causal contributions collectively, prior to t2, it’s literally up in the air whether A will obtain or not. After taking all the causal conditions antecedent to A’s occurring, S plays no further causal role in whether A occurs. So, if A does happen to occur, it’s not because of S. It’s just a matter of luck whether A happens.

It seems, therefore, quite intuitive to me to say that S doesn’t exhibit the kind of control over A needed in order for S to be morally responsible for A. That is, if A happens to occur, it’d seem quite unnatural for us to ascribe praise or blame to S for A.

But, if an undetermined S isn’t morally responsible for A, then S doesn’t have free-will with respect to A.

I feel confident then in concluding that indeterminism is incompatible with free-will.

Thoughts?
You seem to be saying that, if an act occurs randomly, then we can’t claim credit for its happening.

That of course makes sense; in fact, it’s practically tautological. But I don’t see what point you’re trying to prove.
 
You have sadly, unjustly and perhaps unwittingly neglected self-determinism…
 
You go to McDonalds. You choose an order. Case closed. Free will exists.
This seems quite naïve.

There are dozens of models of free-will, and definitions of free-will.

The idea of “choice” is shrouded in discussions within epistemology, philosophy of mind etc.

There are so many ideas those words could communicate I really don’t know what you’re saying. I guess I don’t understand how this addresses anything in my argument.
 
You think free doesn’t exist?

Did you or did you not have the free will to come here and post today?
 
This seems quite naïve.

There are dozens of models of free-will, and definitions of free-will.

The idea of “choice” is shrouded in discussions within epistemology, philosophy of mind etc.

There are so many ideas those words could communicate I really don’t know what you’re saying. I guess I don’t understand how this addresses anything in my argument.
You don’t have an argument.

Which shoe did you put on first this morning. You chose.
 
You seem to be saying that, if an act occurs randomly, then we can’t claim credit for its happening.

That of course makes sense; in fact, it’s practically tautological. But I don’t see what point you’re trying to prove.
Not just randomly. If an act occurs indeterministically, then we can’t claim credit for its happening.

My argument attempts to elicit, for indeterministically occurring acts, that intuitive response you’ve given to randomly occurring acts.
 
Not just randomly. If an act occurs indeterministically, then we can’t claim credit for its happening.

My argument attempts to elicit, for indeterministically occurring acts, that intuitive response you’ve given to randomly occurring acts.
Do you have an example of one of these “indeterministically occurring acts”?
 
I’d like to outline a reason for doubting that free-will exists:

There are different kinds of freedoms of the will. The one we’re concerned with is that which is necessary for us to be morally responsible agents. An agent is morally responsible for an action if she’d deserve praise or credit if she understood that it was morally good, or she’d deserve blame if she understood it was morally bad. She’d deserve these moral predications solely in virtue of her performing the action.

Some say this free-will is compatible with us being determined, others don’t. But, what seems fairly uncontroversial (as much as can be in this field) is that an agent must be the appropriate source of the action in order to have been free with respect to performing it. She must exhibit a certain kind of control over the action in order to be morally responsible for it. If the action is produced randomly, we’d be wont to say the agent was responsible for it. etc.

What I want to suggest is that the free-will required for moral responsibility is incompatible with us being determined, or indetermined. This is good reason to doubt we have it.

I will not be providing my reason for thinking free-will is incompatible with determinism since I know of no determinists here. Rather, I’ll focus on indeterminism and its incompatibility with free-will.

So, let’s suppose that there is some agent, S, and some action A. Suppose that S causally influences the obtaining of A; but, that this causal influence is indetermined. That is, S was not causally determined to produce A.

So, we could even say there is some time, t1, at which S exerts her causal influence, and another time, t2, at which A obtains.

In order for S’s causal influence on A to be indeterministic the sum of all of S’s causal influences on A prior to t2 must be insufficient to bring A about. If that sum suffices to bring about A, then A is determined.

Therefore, taking all of S’s causal contributions collectively, prior to t2, it’s literally up in the air whether A will obtain or not. After taking all the causal conditions antecedent to A’s occurring, S plays no further causal role in whether A occurs. So, if A does happen to occur, it’s not because of S. It’s just a matter of luck whether A happens.

It seems, therefore, quite intuitive to me to say that S doesn’t exhibit the kind of control over A needed in order for S to be morally responsible for A. That is, if A happens to occur, it’d seem quite unnatural for us to ascribe praise or blame to S for A.

But, if an undetermined S isn’t morally responsible for A, then S doesn’t have free-will with respect to A.

I feel confident then in concluding that indeterminism is incompatible with free-will.

Thoughts?
Perplexity:

You have over-thought this thing. If S has but two choices, A or B, and only S chooses A or B, then S is perfectly free to make the choice. It does not matter what outside influences are extant. But, since, normally, outside influences are many, S can also be utilizing freedom in choosing which one, or ones, will (or, may) be significant to the ultimate choice consideration. If, on the other hand, a gun of significant influence is utilized to force S choose A instead of B, then there is little or no freedom.

In such cases, the proof that S chose A - at gun point - must be assumed - if S is still around. If S - at gun point - chose B, then S may no longer around to testify.

Moral freedom is not so different. For some there can be, or, at least appear to be, guns-of-significant-influence in use. For others, even in supposedly quite similar situations, the actual influence may not obtain for a multitude of various reasons.

The “moral” ought can be a fairly significant determinant. However, even as a fairly significant determinant, there can be other determinants, perhaps even less significant - by our standards - that are freely chosen which can ultimately influence a choice instead. (Your argument presumes a lot for the viewer.)

At best, your argument supports that we exist in a world of both, indeterminants and determinants. Nothing more. The fact that influences exist in no way precludes the freedom of free will. There is even freedom in the selection of the influences of influences. One cannot assume that all influences are prima facie unalterable in their influence effectiveness.

I hope this was sufficiently confusing. 😛

God bless,
jd
 
Perp,
Why do you care about free-will? Are you trying to escape your responsibility for something you did and now you regret?

Calvin is dead and in Hell.

Thanks,
Buck
 
Perp,
Why do you care about free-will? Are you trying to escape your responsibility for something you did and now you regret?

Calvin is dead and in Hell.

Thanks,
Buck
Buck:

Cuidado chico! The Catholic Church does not infer that anyone - that was extant on Earth - is in Hell. (The Mod may take this denigration of Calvin very seriously. We want you around!)

God bless,
jd
 
Perp,
Why do you care about free-will? Are you trying to escape your responsibility for something you did and now you regret?

Calvin is dead and in Hell.

Thanks,
Buck
It’s a philosophical topic that fascinates me. The same as morality, natural theology…possible worlds etc. There’s a vast literature on free-will in contemporary philosophy. I don’t think you’re familiar with this are you?
 
It’s a philosophical topic that fascinates me. The same as morality, natural theology…possible worlds etc. There’s a vast literature on free-will in contemporary philosophy. I don’t think you’re familiar with this are you?
I don’t care about free-will. I do what the Church wants. I do what my boss wants. When I have spare time I do what I want.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top