Against Indifferentism

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So in this correct view, only Catholics have “religious liberty”. Those who are in a false religion do not have this “religious liberty”, since they are in error and error has no “rights”.
Hmmmm… I would word this differently. Everybody, Catholics and non-Catholics, have a moral duty and religious liberty to worship as the Catholic Church intends. The Catholic Church intends that everyone be Catholic and worship in accord with ecclesiastical norms and as St. Ignatius Loyola asserts, “think with the Church.” 😉
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Hmmmm… I would word this differently. Everybody, Catholics and non-Catholics, have a moral duty and religious liberty to worship as a Catholic. 😉
Let me reword it. Only those following the truth have religious liberty: no one has the “religious liberty” to “embrace and profess” a false religion.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
I agree. Nor should they be forced to convert to a false non-Catholic religion. Everyone has that kind of religious liberty as well. So there are at least two truthful kinds of religious liberty that the Catholic Church professes as Catholic doctrine. There are other kinds that have been condemned as error. Yet, these two kinds–1) freedom to worship God as God intends…

Yes. Everyone is free to be a Catholic.


**** immunity from being forced against one’s will to worship in any religion, either true or false*****

Agreed. No one should be forced to convert, either to the true faith or to another religion. (But have you read what St. Augustine said about forced conversions? If not, you may want to because it is interesting.)
 
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RSiscoe:
Let me reword it. Only those following the truth have religious liberty: no one has the “religious liberty” to “embrace and profess” a false religion.
I think I like my wording better. Nontheless, religious liberty has much to do with God’s permissive will vice God’s will of desire.

God’s will of desire is that all be Catholic in body and soul.

Yet, God permits men to make a freewill choice to error. Thus, one has “religious liberty” of this sort, but it is not without consequence (sin). God desires that they not error (sin), but permits it just that same.

So, since God refrains from destroying free will, the Church professes that kind of religious liberty as well, to allow humans to freely choose error, in the sense of that second type of religious libery which I stated above. They are not free to error without sin, and it is the role of the Church to admonish such sinners. Yet, everybody has religious liberty of this sort…

***1) freedom to worship God as God intends (Catholic), and ***
2) immunity from being forced against one’s will to worship in any religion, either true or false


 
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RSiscoe:
Let me reword it. Only those following the truth have religious liberty: no one has the “religious liberty” to “embrace and profess” a false religion.
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itsjustdave1988:
I think I like my wording better. Nontheless, religious liberty has much to do with God’s permissive will vice (sic) God’s will of desire.
We need to address this. Are you saying that “religious liberty” has to do with God’s consequent (or permissive) will? In other words, people have “religious liberty” since God does not stop them from “embracing and professing” their false religion? I think that is what you are saying. Let’s continue with your post…
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Dave:
God’s will of desire is that all be Catholic in body and soul.

Yet, God permits men to make a freewill choice to error. Thus, one has “religious liberty” of this sort, but it is not without consequence (sin). God desires that they not error (sin), but permits it just that same.
OK, then, let’s use another example to illustrate your point: God has given women free will, and therefore has not hindered them from having an abortion. Therefore, they have the “liberty” to have that abortion. As you said, “God permits men (or women in this case) from making freewill choice”

Or another example: God gave Hitler a free will, and therefore he had the “liberty” to kill as many Jews as he desired.
So, since God refrains from destroying free will, the Church professes that kind of religious liberty as well, to allow humans to freely choose error, in the sense of that second type of religious libery which I stated above. They are not free to error without sin, and it is the role of the Church to admonish such sinners. Yet, everybody has religious liberty of this sort…
Yet according to this same liberty (which Leo XIII defines as “natural liberty”) women have the liberty to have an abortion, and charles Mansen had the “liberty” to be a mass murderer, and Jeffery Dommer had the “liberty” to kill and eat people.

I just wanted to clarify that this is the “liberty” we are talking about: the liberty of “free will”.

But, let’s not stop with this post. I think we need to stay on this topic so that we become perfectly clear. Above you said the following:
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Dave:
So, since God refrains from destroying free will, the Church professes that kind of religious liberty as well, to allow humans to freely choose error.
I will end with this question: Would you also say, then, that “since God refrains from destroying free will, the Church professes that women are free to have an abortion: the Church professes that they are “free” to choose to abort as many babies as they so desire”

Would you agree that the Church professes that kind of “liberty” for women?
 
We need to address this. Are you saying that “religious liberty” has to do with God’s consequent (or permissive) will?
Yes, when speaking of that kind of religious liberty of the second type, that is, "2) immunity from being forced against one’s will to worship in any religion, either true or false."

God desires that the response to actual grace be that of a freewill choice, not an action against one’s will. Yes, everybody has freewill to reject God. Our moral duty and religious liberty certainly related to the theology of grace and freewill.

But as I said, such rejection of grace is not without consequence. The consequence of sin is punishment, temporal and/or eternal depending upon one’s state of grace at death. Every last penny is paid in one way or another.

The kind of religious liberty of the second type allows anybody to worship their left shoe if they so choose, free from being forced against their will to worship according to the true religion, but not free from the sinful consequences of worshipping a false god.

So, the response of the Catholic Church to those who choose to worship their left shoe instead of the true God is admonishment, evangelization, and if prudent, canonical punishment (for Catholics).

Keep in mind also what I said in the posts above about ***“due limits”: ***“so long as "just public order be observed," (DH, 2) humans have the gift of free will given to them by God, and other humans cannot coerce them to act contary to such a gift by forcing them against their will in matters religious.

The “religious liberty” examples you give of abortion and Hilter’s actions are in reality, not matters religious. But in your hypothetical, if they were (e.g., Branch Dividians in Waco, TX) then clearly these are beyond “due limits” of religious liberty according to Catholic doctrine.
 
In my view, God DOES respond to those who embrace a false religion, but he does so mostly by grace and truth, but also sometimes by punishment (and occasionally in our salvation history, by *herem, *or the utter destruction of sinful people such as the Amalekites).

The mission of the Catholic Church can indeed justly include these same responses, yet the utter destruction of sinful nations (every man, woman, and child) is in my view reserved to the judgement of God alone, as my Douay-Rheims Bible states regarding *herem: *

*Commentary for 1 Kings (Samuel) 15:3:*3 “Child”… The great Master of life and death (who cuts off one half of all mankind whilst they are children) has been pleased sometimes to ordain that children should be put to the sword, in detestation of the crimes of their parents, and that they might not live to follow the same wicked ways. But without such ordinance of God it is not allowable, in any wars, how just soever, to kill children. See more here:

God sometimes ordered Hebrews to wipe out a city. Was it immoral? - View

And furthermore, our Church ought to be cautious about the use of the “punishment” option, as we have a history of fallible judgements when responding to perceived heresy (e.g. St. Joan of Arc). So, for the most part, grace and truth are the most prudent response to erroneous views. Among Catholics, canonical censures are also prudent at times.

Yet, when the “due limits” of religious freedom are breached, they endanger the faithful, and the Church or governement can exercise their lawful authority to “protect and defend” without contradicting justice.
 
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Dave:
The kind of religious liberty
of the second type allows anybody to worship their left shoe if they so choose, free from being forced against their will to worship according to the true religion, but not free from the sinful consequences of worshipping a false god.

question #1: So what you are saying is that, according to this kind of “religious liberty”, every man should have the liberty to profess whatever religion they want.

Leo XIII: “”liberty of worship, as it is called… is based on the principle that every man is free to profess, as he may choose, any religion or none…when a liberty [such as this] is offered to man, the power is given him to pervert or abandon with impunity the most sacred of duties, and to exchange the unchangeable good for evil; which , as we have said, is no liberty, but its degredation, and the abject submission of the soul to sin.”

The “liberty” to worship their left shoe is not liberty, but “license”. “But many there are who follow in the footsteps of Lucifer… and substitute for true liberty what is sheer and most foolish license. Such, for instance, are the men… who style themselves ‘liberals’” (Pope Leo XIII)

Yet, according to what you are saying, the “religious liberty” taught by Vatican II means that anyone “can worship their left shoe if they so choose”.

question #2: Basically, you are saying that the “religious liberty” taught by Vatican II is the same kind of “religious liberty” that American law allows.
 
Also, can you provide the reference for these quotes.

***1) freedom to worship God as God intends (Catholic), and

2) immunity from being forced against one’s will to worship in any religion, either true or false

Are they actual “quotes” are is it just your way of wording it?
 
question #1: So what you are saying is that, according to this kind of “religious liberty”, every man should have the liberty to profess whatever religion they want.
No. the paraphrase falls short, as you’ve truncated the rest of the context, which is an important context.

You admit that “No one should be forced to convert, either to the true faith or to another religion.” Said alternatively, there’s a kind of religious liberty that involves freedom from this kind of coersion from either individuals or civil society or ecclesiastical authorities, within due limits, so long as just public order is observed. This does not involve freedom from admonishment from error, so no “freedom to error” is implied in this sense. Merely liberty from unjust coersion is asserted, such that one may not be forced to worship against their will in matters religious.

So, if I were to error in worshipping my left shoe, I am free from this kind of unjust coersion, nothing more.
 
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RSiscoe:
Also, can you provide the reference for these quotes.

***1) freedom to worship God as God intends (Catholic), and ***

2) immunity from being forced against one’s will to worship in any religion, either true or false

Are they actual “quotes” are is it just your way of wording it?
Those are my summaries of the kind of religious liberty that the Catholic Church professes. As I understand what you’ve written, you agree with at least these kinds of religious liberty. I’m just trying to establish that there are some kind of religious freedom that are inherent in Catholic doctrine, while there are certainly other kinds which have been condemned.

"Immunity from being forced against one’s will" in matters religious does not mean “liberty to error,” in the sense that they are free to abandon their moral obligations to God and to one another with impunity, or free from admonishment of sin in all its just forms, such as a public rebuttal to their religious errors in the form of apologetics, evangelization, lawful punishments for violations of just public order, delicts and penalties in accord with canon law, etc.
 
Additionally, as Fr. Brian Harrison explains…
Dignitatis Humanae, far from contradicting Pope Pius IX, explicitly repeats his teaching that "public peace" is not the only criterion which governments may appeal to in restricting religious (or anti-religious) manifestations or propaganda. According to article 7 of the conciliar Declaration, “public peace” is only one of three criteria which the State may invoke for that purpose. The other two are “the necessary protection of public morality”, and “the effective protection of the rights of all citizens” (and the “peaceful settlement of conflicts of rights”). Thanks to an intervention by the young Archbishop Karol Wojtyla, a statement was added to this paragraph insisting that ***these limits are to be decided and imposed on the basis of the “objective moral order”. And it is, of course the Catholic Church which is the unique interpreter of what is objectively moral or immoral. ***Pius IX, Vatican II and Religious Liberty by Fr. Brian W. Harrison rtforum.org/lt/lt9.html#II }
 
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Dave:
These are my summaries of the kind of religious liberty that the Catholic Church professes. As I understand what you’ve written, you agree with at least these kinds of religious liberty.
This is what I agree with. I agree that a person who is following the truth should be allowed to do so, and that no one should hinder that person from following the truth.

I also believe that no one should be forced to convert to the Catholic faith, or to a false religion.

Where I think we disagree is that I say no one has the “liberty” to profess a false religion. And that if someone claims that religious liberty means a person has the “liberty” to embrace and profess a false religion that this is false religious liberty, which could be better described as “religious license”.

Do you see where we are disagreeing?

I interpret this phrase: “**immunity from being forced against one’s will to worship in any religion, either true or false” **in the sense that no one should be forced to worship any particular way - either according to the true faith, or in a false religion. But, what I do not say is that this also means that they have, based on “religious liberty”, the freedom to profess a false religion…

Do you see the difference: one is a negative whereas the other is a positive: they should not be forced to convert to either the true faith, or a false religion, but it is another thing all together to say that a person of a false religion is at “liberty” to profess their false.

Let me rephrase it one more time so I am completely clear: no Catholic should be forced to convert to a false religion; no member of a false religion should be forced to convert to the Catholic faith; but only a Catholic has the religious liberty to profess their faith. The person of a false religion DOES NOT have the liberty to “embrace and profess that faith which, guided by the light of reason he considers true”.
 
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RSiscoe:
interpret this phrase: “**immunity from being forced against one’s will to worship in any religion, either true or false” **in the sense that no one should be forced to worship any particular way - either according to the true faith, or in a false religion. But, what I do not say is that this also means that they have, based on “religious liberty”, the freedom to profess a false religion.
Let me take this one step further to make myself even more clear. I think it is appropriate - since this is what the Church has sanctioned for hundreds of years - that a person can be prevented from practicing their false religion.

In other words, it is absolutely lawful to forbid the public practice of the Mulsim religion, or any other false religion, even though it would not be right to force them to convert to the truth.
 
I think it will help our discussion if we recall the three kinds of liberty: psychological liberty (also called “natural liberty,” or free will); physical liberty, and moral liberty.

Psychological liberty is simply free will – the ability to make a moral choice. Every person has free will and therefore every person possesses psychological liberty. Every action known to man (except the actions of a possessed person) proceeds from this “liberty”. Leo XIII called psychological liberty “natural liberty”.

Physical liberty is freedom from physical restraint. It is the “freedom” to perform any action the person desires. If someone was in prison they would not have complete “physical liberty”.

Moral liberty is what we are allowed to do. Psychological liberty is what we are *able *to do, but moral liberty is what we are allowed to do. “Law” is that which sets the boundaries for our moral liberty. The law of God sets the boundaries, as well as the just laws of the state. If we violate any just laws, we abuse our liberty and fall into sin.

So, natural liberty or “psychological liberty” is another name for free will which enables us to make a moral choice. Physical liberty means that we are not physically restrained from doing what we desire. And finally moral liberty is what we are allowed to do.

Although we have free will and therefore are “able” to sin, we are not “allowed” to sin. We are only truly free to act within the law. For example, America is a free country, yet I am not “free” to rob a bank., or run red light I have the ability to rob a bank or run a red light (because of free will), but I am not allowed to do so, since it is a violation of the law.

Since a women has free will, and is not physically restrained, she is able to have an abortion, yet she certainly does not have the right to have an abortion and is not therefore “free” to do so. Why? Because the moral boundaries of our actions are set by law and God’s law (which supersedes unjust human law) says “thou shalt not kill”. Therefore, she is not free to kill her child.

A person who says that simply because a person has free will they are therefore “free” to act contrary to the law (God’s law or a just law of the state) has an “absurd notion as to what liberty is”, and therefore they “pervert the very idea of freedom, or they extend it at their pleasure to many things in respect of which man cannot rightly be regarded as free” (Pope Leo XIII).

We can see from this that no one is “free” to break the 5th commandment by having an abortion, and no one is “free” to break the 1st commandment by belonging to a false religion. Actually it is far worse to violate the 1st commandment that it is to violate the 5th.

Let us keep the definitions in mind while we are discussing the subject of religious liberty, as it will help us to keep our thoughts clear.
 
I say no one has the “liberty” to profess a false religion.
I agree. Nobody is at liberty to disregard God’s objective moral order with impunity. Natural liberty to choose sin, yes, we all have that. But such liberty is not with impunity.

Impunity” is, according to Webster, “***exemption or freedom from punishment, harm, or loss.” ***

Surely, all who sin, do so without a freedom from punishment, harm, or loss.

According to Catholic doctrine everyone is morally obligated to worship as God himself intends (i.e., Catholic). Nobody is free to disregard such a moral obligation with impunity. One thing to be mindful of are those who suffer from invincible ignorance, as St. Thomas Aquinas contends, “it is not imputed as a sin to man, if he fails to know what he is unable to know. Consequently ignorance of such like things is called “invincible,” because it cannot be overcome by study.” (ST, IIa, 76, 2)

I don’t believe we disagree on that matter. Where we probably disagree is the prudent response for a the Church Militant in battle with those that would oppose her. Battle tactics can differ with regard to the best way to win the war against Satan.

Those who would disregard their moral obligation and worship falsely, such as a those who choose to worship their left shoe, for example, do not do so with impunity. Yet, what ought to be the battle tactic? Burn them at the stake? Probably not a prudent response. “We had to destroy the village in order to save it” failed miserably in Vietnam and I think it would not work out so well for the Church Militant, either.

What should the appropriate response of the Church and civil government authorities be with regard to shoe-worshippers? Certainly Divine law forbids infidelity, heresy, and schism. Certainly those who commit such sin ought not to be, and in reality will not be free from punishment, harm, or loss. That’s Catholic doctrine. To assert otherwise has been condemned as error.

And certainly, ecclesiastical law and civil law for every nation ought never to be contrary to Divine Law.

It is my belief that Ecclesiastical law can never be contrary to Divine Law, in general. Pius VI expressly condemned such a proposition, when it was asserted by the Jansensists. Thus, the 1909 Catholic Encyclopedia describes “Disciplinary Infallibility,” properly understood, as unanimously held by theologians and “undeniable.” (cf. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ecclesiastical****Discipline).

But what about civil laws? Individuals and societies alike have a moral duty toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ. This is explicit in Catholic doctrine, as *Dignitatis Humanae *affirms “the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ.” (DH, 1). Thus, all civil laws ought never to be contrary to Divine Law.

In accord with the 1909 Catholic Encyclopedia, Divine Law properly so-called includes all that God has revealed, either naturally or supernaturally. Yet, some Divine Law is understood as not necessarily immutable, such as circumcision. Thus, the 1909 Catholic Encyclopdedia describes Divine Law as typically categorized into “civil, ceremonial, and moral precepts. The civil legislation regulated the relations of the people of God among themselves and with their neighbours; the ceremonial regulated matters of religion and the worship of God; the moral was a Divine code of ethics.” (cf. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Moral Aspect of Divine****Law ) Both civil and ceremonial legislation can change, but "It was otherwise with the moral precepts of the Mosaic Law. The Master expressly taught that the observance of these, inasmuch as they are prescribed by nature herself, is necessary for salvation."

Thus the civil laws of every nation ought to conform to the moral precepts of Divine Law, inasmuch as they are prescribed by nature, as these are “necessary for salvation.” We know this is not the case, which is why we are the Church Militant, in battle with the forces of evil. What should be the Church’s battle plan?

Should the Church burn all the shoe-worshippers at the stake?
Are there some demons that only prayer and fasting can expel?
How ought the Church Militant prevent false worship?

I think the battle plan ought to always include grace and truth. St. Francis Assisi’s advice is to “Evangelize always. When necessary, use words.” The Church should prevent shoe-worshipping and other such false religions, but she ought to act prudently when doing so. An imprudent response to sin may not actually convert the sinner, but push them further away from the true religion.
 
One other point I’d like to make in relation to how the Church ought to prudently respond to infidelity, heresy, and schism (e.g Islam, Protestantism, Orthodoxy) and other such sinfulness, is that it is rather difficult for human beings to see into the heart of the sinner to determine their objective culpability. There are so many subjective factors which diminish culpability that there seems to me a great danger in punishing too harshly some infidelty or sin, when ignorance, fear, habit, or other impediments to a voluntary act may have played a large part. It seems rather prudent to instead focus less on delicts and penalties, and re-double our efforts on grace and truth. This is something I think was masterfully exemplied by John Paul II of blessed memory.

I once heard it said that Protestantism was the result of “unpaid debts” of the Catholic Church. In a sense I think this is true. If only Churchmen were better governors, teachers and sanctifyers, infidelity and other such sinfulness would be greatly diminished.
 
Well, we have certainly left a lot of “loose ends” behind us in this discussion. What I mean is, we have disagreed, then agreed, but have not exactly clarified what it is we now agree on, and if there is still anything we disagree on (up to this point). There are things you said earlier which I wanted to address (posts 24 and 25, for example), but chose not press the issue, since we seemed to be moving on from one related point to another. I also did not comment on many points you addressed to me, but I did have a response. I let them go because I did not want to get too side tracked on minor points.

Although I think it may be good to continue on as we have been, if there is anything I have written that you disagree with, and you would like me to address it, please let me know and I will be glad to do so. Now to your latest posts:
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Dave:
According to Catholic doctrine everyone is morally obligated to worship as God himself intends (i.e., Catholic). Nobody is free to disregard such a moral obligation with impunity… I don’t believe we disagree on that matter. Where we probably disagree is the prudent response
for a the Church Militant in battle with those that would oppose her. Battle tactics can differ with regard to the best way to win the war against Satan.

Those who would disregard their moral obligation and worship falsely, such as a those who choose to worship their left shoe, for example, do not do so with impunity. Yet, what ought to be the battle tactic? Burn them at the stake? … What should the appropriate response of the Church and civil government authorities be with regard to shoe-worshippers?

Dave said:
Where we probably disagree is the prudent response

for a the Church Militant in battle with those that would oppose her.

My guess is that we actually agree on how the Church should handle it, when we examine the ways in which the Church can deal with false worship.

The Church has two options when dealing with violations of the first commandment, which are the same two options it has when dealing with violations of the other 9 commandments: it can forbid the sin, or it can tolerate it.

As we know, the Church and state are supposed to be joined together. “Separation of Church and state” is condemned as an error in the Syllabus (#55).

One option for the Church in Catholic countries, when dealing with false religions and sects is to see to it that it is made a violation of state law. Since human law is supposed to reflect Divine law, it is obviously allowed (and even preferable) for the state to forbid false worship, since God’s law forbids it. So, one way to deal with false religions is to forbid them outright (as illegal), and attach punishment to those who violate the law.

We have an example of this happening at the council of Vienne, when Pope Clement V strictly forbad Mulsims from worshipping in the Catholic country. He said that, since their false worship brought disrepute to the Catholic faith and was a cause scandal to the faithful, it could be tolerated no longer.

continue…
 
continuation

**
Council of Vienne:
It is an insult to the Holy Name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where [Muslim] Saracens live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place, in the hearing of both Christians and Saracens and there make public declarations in his honour. There is a place, moreover, where once was buried a certain Saracen whom other Saracens venerate as a saint. A great number of Saracens flock there quite openly from far and near. This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated any further without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on catholic princes, one and all, who hold sovereignty over the said Saracens and in whose territory these practices occur, and we lay on them a pressing obligation under the divine judgment that, as true Catholics and zealous for the Christian faith, they give consideration to the disgrace heaped on both them and other Christians. They are to remove this offence altogether from their territories and take care that their subjects remove it, so that they may thereby attain the reward of eternal happiness. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet. They shall also forbid anyone in their dominions to attempt in future the said pilgrimage or in any way give countenance to it. Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.” 64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:YzE6R6ploToJ:www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/VIENNE.HTM+Council+of+Vienne,+1311-1312:+%E2%80%9CIt+is+an+insult+to+the+holy+name+and+a+disgrace+to+the+Christian+faith&hl=en **

So that is one option for the Church: to make false worship not only contrary to Divine law, but also contrary to human law. Obviously this is the ideal situation since human law is supposed to reflect Divine law as closely as possible.

However, the Church realizes that sometime sin must be tolerated in order to prevent a greater evil. Therefore, she has sometimes tolerated certain sins. She has never claimed that people have a “right” to this sinful behavior, but she has tolerated when prudence deems it necessary.

For example, the Church has tolerated public brothels. Now, the Church could never declare that anyone has the “right” to break the 6th or 9th commandment, yet it was tolerated. St. Augustine speaks of this in one of his books, and Cardinal Ratzinger also mentioned it in his book “Salt of the earth”:

Cardinal Ratzinger: “There’s a passage in Saint Augustine where he asks what one should do about this problem [prostitution]. And he answers that, given man’s makeup, it’s better for the order of the commonwealth when prostitution exists in an ordered form.”

continue…
 
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