Against "Sola Scriptura"

[Ginger2]

wow, and you are sola scriptura?? you should read the whole bible first. yes, Peter was married, but the RC discipline of unmarried priests is just that… a discipline. it is not doctrine, and (in fact) there are a number of married priests within the RC.

Really! A lot has changed since I was RC! Would these married Roman Catholic priests please identify themselves? I would like to hear from you.

“dead saints”?? who is a dead saint??

Always the same thing.:tsktsk: You know full well that I am referring to the death of the physical body - not the spirit.

…you place one person over another i’m sure. i’m positive that you view some people as “holier” than others …your pastor, missionaries, Billy Graham…

No I don’t.

 

[Ginger2]

…you really should read the whole bible and understand it before saying things that aren’t true.

And you really should find out what I believe before making false statements.

I have read the ENTIRE Bible. Paul’s opinion (i assume that is what you were referring to) does not contradict what I said.

If the Roman Catholic church permits priests to marry, then I will admit I was wrong. But, they didn’t when I was RC.

Now, let me give you an example of why I don’t assume some people are “holier than others”

There once was a man who everyone thought was a wonderful person. He devoted a large portion of his free time to fatherless boys - taking them fishing and to ball games.

Such selfless sacrifice cause single mom’s to feel very grateful.

Turned out he was molesting the little boys.

God knows what’s is in a person’s heart - their motivation for doing “good deeds”.

We don’t.

Also, many people do their “good deeds” in secret. It may appear as tho they keep to themselves and never do anything for anyone else. God may be doing much more thru people like this than thru those who are highly visible.

What God does thru human beings is not always seen by human eyes.

I put no one on a pedestal.

 

[Ginger2]

Can a Roman Catholic Priest please verify whether or not RC priests are allowed to marry.

 

[bengal_fan]

Can a Roman Catholic Priest please verify whether or not RC priests are allowed to marry.

i said there were some married RC priests. it is not the norm (because of the discipline of celibacy). but they are out there.

 

[bengal_fan]

No I don’t.

sorry, but i just don’t believe you. so you don’t read books by any other Christians? you don’t sit at the feet of some one else to be taught? if you do either of these things, you hold these people in higher regard. you don’t look at the stories of missionaries and evangelists with a sense of awe? you do hold some people in higher regard than others.

so you agree that physical death does not mean some one is dead then? good, then you agree that the saints are alive and in the presence of God and can intercede on our behalf (just like i can intercede for you in prayer). that is what the RC teaches and that is why i said you should learn more before speaking about things you only have a half truth about. i do not agree with everything the RC teaches, but i have learned enough to know that they do have a biblical explanation for everything they teach.

 

[Rocky]

Can a Roman Catholic Priest please verify whether or not RC priests are allowed to marry.

A Roman Catholic man who desires to be ordained is not allowed to be married at the time of ordination. No Roman Catholic priest is allowed to be married after ordination. In some instances, married male converts to the Roman Catholic Church have been given special permission to be ordained a Catholic priest. This permission must come from the Holy See after the request is made by the man’s bishop. If the man is ordained a priest, he is not allowed to remarry upon the death of his wife.

Married men who wish to serve in an ordained position in the Roman Catholic Church may apply to become a Deacon of the Church and may be ordained if married. However, no ordained Deacon may be married or remarried after ordination. Catholic Deacons are permitted to preach at Mass and to officiate at baptisms and weddings, but do not preside at Mass, absolve people from their sins, nor able to administer to the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick.

Oops, I am editing this because you asked for a Roman Catholic Priest to answer the question. I am not a priest, but my answer is correct.

 

[liturgy_geek]

Can a Roman Catholic Priest please verify whether or not RC priests are allowed to marry.

In at least some cases, maybe all, when an Episcopalian married male priest converts to the Catholic faith, he is allowed to continue his priestly vocation as a married Catholic priest. I admit I don’t know all of the particulars, though.

another oops–didn’t see that you wanted a RC priest to reply! Sorry!

 

[rien]

Can a Roman Catholic Priest please verify whether or not RC priests are allowed to marry.

I’m not a priest or even Catholic but can answer. The Western Rite (Roman) of the Catholic church does not allow married priests. Except on the occasion of some married ministers who convert - this primarily means former Episcopal and Lutheran ministers.

It will be interesting to see where the TAC request for coporate reunion with Rome goes. We are talking 400,000 members and many, many married priests.

The Eastern Rites of the Catholic church (there are 22 I believe, with the Ukranian Catholic church, the Indian Syro-Malabar and the Lebanese Maronites being the largest - 6 million each or so for the first 2 and 3 plus million the last) do allow married priests as do the Orthodox. Like the Orthodox, Eastern Rite Catholic bishops have to be celibate - elevated from those priests who choose not to marry/remain celibate.

 

[rien]

I do not adhere to the Catholic definition of Sola Scripture, but I do believe in Sola Scripture as defined in Scripture.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

Dictionary Aids
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

If what you teach contradicts Scripture, it is false.

Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Through Scriptures God is equiping us to be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

If it’s good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me!

I think the problem with that is that the Bible does not address issues and technoligies /practices that have come since. In-vitro fertilization, gay adoption, cloning, creating “life” as some scientiists are trying.

What should be a Christian’s position on that? If one does not beleive in a final authority it is whatever you feel comfortable with. Episcopals have one teaching and fundamentalists another. But none can go to Scripture and definitely find a teaching.

The problem for me, I did not become Christian, is that after looking at fundamentalism, Orthodoxy and catholicsm I could not accept their teachings on the Trinity. It is not, IMO, readilly explicit in Scripture.

Now the rapidly growing Oneness Pentecostalist movement is emerging as a “fundamentalist” Christian group opposed to the doctrine of the Trinity. I generally agree with their arguments on this particular subject - same problems I had. That means the Church, Luther and Calvin were all wrong maybe. And the LDS and Unitarians mayberight on this?

The lack of authority is Christinity’s great weakness and why it is faltering in the face of worldwide Islam and secularism - again IMO.

 

[Ginger2]

A Roman Catholic man who desires to be ordained is not allowed to be married at the time of ordination. No Roman Catholic priest is allowed to be married after ordination. In some instances, married male converts to the Roman Catholic Church have been given special permission to be ordained a Catholic priest. This permission must come from the Holy See after the request is made by the man’s bishop. If the man is ordained a priest, he is not allowed to remarry upon the death of his wife.

Married men who wish to serve in an ordained position in the Roman Catholic Church may apply to become a Deacon of the Church and may be ordained if married. However, no ordained Deacon may be married or remarried after ordination. Catholic Deacons are permitted to preach at Mass and to officiate at baptisms and weddings, but do not preside at Mass, absolve people from their sins, nor able to administer to the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick.

Oops, I am editing this because you asked for a Roman Catholic Priest to answer the question. I am not a priest, but my answer is correct.

Thank you. That is my understanding, also .

 

[Ginger2]

In at least some cases, maybe all, when an Episcopalian married male priest converts to the Catholic faith, he is allowed to continue his priestly vocation as a married Catholic priest. I admit I don’t know all of the particulars, though.

another oops–didn’t see that you wanted a RC priest to reply! Sorry!

Thank you also.

I only asked for a priest because too often I get opposing opinions from several lay people and wanted to avoid that. But we all seem to have the same understanding - that is good.

I’m not a priest or even Catholic but can answer. The Western Rite (Roman) of the Catholic church does not allow married priests. Except on the occasion of some married ministers who convert - this primarily means former Episcopal and Lutheran ministers.

It will be interesting to see where the TAC request for coporate reunion with Rome goes. We are talking 400,000 members and many, many married priests.

The Eastern Rites of the Catholic church (there are 22 I believe, with the Ukranian Catholic church, the Indian Syro-Malabar and the Lebanese Maronites being the largest - 6 million each or so for the first 2 and 3 plus million the last) do allow married priests as do the Orthodox. Like the Orthodox, Eastern Rite Catholic bishops have to be celibate - elevated from those priests who choose not to marry/remain celibate.

Thanks!

 

[rien]

Thank you also.

I only asked for a priest because too often I get opposing opinions from several lay people and wanted to avoid that. But we all seem to have the same understanding - that is good.

Thanks!

I think there is maybe some honest confusion. But really this practice as far as I know is recent. From the 80’s. Too, it is almost always applied to Episcopal and Lutheran ministers. There are a few exception, a Methodist minister convert - married - was ordained a priest in the Catholic church here and is the pastor of a large suburban parish.

BTW, Richard John Newhouse - a former prominent Lutheran theolgian and priest - converted and remained celibate and is now a priest in the Catholic church. He is editor of First Things. I’m guessing then that non-married Protestant ministers who convert and become priest are not allowed to maryy after that.

An interesting situation is Alex Jones. A former pentecostal minister, married with children. he wants to be a priest but the door does not to be as open for him as for Episcopals and Lutherans who convert. As of now he is on the way to becoming a deacon.

The TAC situation will be interesting to see unfold.

 

[Ginger2]

I think the problem with that is that the Bible does not address issues and technologies /practices that have come since. In-vitro fertilization, gay adoption, cloning, creating “life” as some scientists are trying.

What should be a Christian’s position on that?

This could be a very interesting discussion. But I’m not up to it on a Sunday. For now I’ll just say that I think there is a map in Scripture to define what is and isn’t acceptable.

I see the problem more as a self-centered-ness in humans. “I can, therefore I will”.

If one does not beleive in a final authority it is whatever you feel comfortable with. Episcopals have one teaching and fundamentalists another. But none can go to Scripture and definitely find a teaching.

This I disagree with. We can go to Scripture. However, God clearly states thru Scripture that His design allows people to choose to misinterpret and/or deny what they don’t like.

Jesus even stated that he spoke in parables so that those who want to reject him would not understand.

The lack of authority is Christinity’s great weakness and why it is faltering in the face of worldwide Islam and secularism - again IMO.

Here is where we totally agree - but not for the same reasons.

 

[rien]

This could be a very interesting discussion. But I’m not up to it on a Sunday. For now I’ll just say that I think there is a map in Scripture to define what is and isn’t acceptable.

I see the problem more as a self-centered-ness in humans. “I can, therefore I will”.

This I disagree with. We can go to Scripture. However, God clearly states thru Scripture that His design allows people to choose to misinterpret and/or deny what they don’t like.

Jesus even stated that he spoke in parables so that those who want to reject him would not understand.

Here is where we totally agree - but not for the same reasons.

The lack of Christian unity - despite the prayer of Jesus - was the breaking point in a way for me. If the Saviour’s prayer that they be “one” is not efficacious. Well, it made me go places I hadn’t considered - as in look outside Christianity in my spiritual journey.

Interesting point. A few years back the WSJ had an articla about Central American villages converting to Islam. The problen was North American Christian missionaries came there - converting a third of the village to LDS, a third to the JW’s and a third to Pentecostalism. Violence was eruppting among some villagers over a division not there before. Spanish Muslim missionaries - who are very active in Central America - came in and got the village leaders to convert en masse. Unity restored.

The great scandal of Christianity is its dis-unity IMO.

 

[liturgy_geek]

I see the problem more as a self-centered-ness in humans. “I can, therefore I will”.

Amen to that!

 

[Ginger2]

i’m positive that you view some people as “holier” than others …your pastor, missionaries, Billy Graham…

No I don’t.

…sorry, but i just don’t believe you.

…so you don’t read books by any other Christians?

No. But I read the Bible a lot.

…you don’t sit at the feet of some one else to be taught?

No. I sometimes attend Bible studies, but they are not “taught” by someone. There is a leader to keep the study from drifting off topic. The leader is not held in any higher regard than anyone else. The idea is for that the Holy Spirit will be present to teach.

…you don’t look at the stories of missionaries and evangelists with a sense of awe?

No.When God does amazing things, I am in awe of God - not the person God happens to use.

What about you? Are answers to all these questions “yes” for you?

 

[liturgy_geek]

Does the church you attend have a pastor who preaches from the Bible? Do some people take notes? Does the church try to find someone to serve as pastor with some evidence of Christian education–or not? How is higher education in the Bible (like a Bible college or seminary)regarded–encouraged, or discouraged?

Have you ever been in a Bible study in which there was a disagreement on how to interpret a passage? How was the disagreement settled?

Oh, I am so sorry about all these questions–but I am truly curious!

 

[Ginger2]

Does the church you attend have a pastor who preaches from the Bible? Do some people take notes? Does the church try to find someone to serve as pastor with some evidence of Christian education–or not? How is higher education in the Bible (like a Bible college or seminary)regarded–encouraged, or discouraged?

I don’t think this has anything to do with what bengal and I are talking about.

Have you ever been in a Bible study in which there was a disagreement on how to interpret a passage? How was the disagreement settled?

We use Scripture.

Oh, I am so sorry about all these questions–but I am truly curious!

What is it you are curious about?

Bengal thinks I hold some humans as being morally superior to others like my paster, missionaries and Billy Graham.

Why is it so hard to believe that I think all people are flawed?
If some of the people I go to church with hold some in high regards, what does that have to do with me?

If you have a relative that is a drunk, does that also make you a drunk?

If I go to church every Sunday does that mean I worship the pastor? What happens when we get a new pastor?

More specific…If I hold any pastor above other Christians, and that pastor commits a sin that is exposed,…

…should I now be crushed because my “hero” has failed me?

My faith is in God - not human beings.

 

[Ginger2]

What about you? Do you venerate some humans over others?

How disappointing it must be when one falters. Are you able to help them? Or do you condemn them for not living up to your impossible expectations?

 

[liturgy_geek]

How disappointing it must be when one falters. Are you able to help them? Or do you condemn them for not living up to your impossible expectations?

I meant no disrespect and think the questions were and are valid. Where have I shown that I have impossible expectations?

Do I honor any humans above others? Only if God wants it that way. And they–and we–all certainly do falter.