Against the death penalty? Give me your alternative...

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vern humphrey:
What you have said is factually wrong. people in prison, under total control have managed to kill people – Tommy Silverstein, under 23-hour a day lockdown in Marion, the first “Supermax” prison not only managed to kill a corrections officer, he managed to put together a plot (with people he supposedly was unable to communicate with) for the simultaneous murder of several corrections officers – two were killed, in different areas of the prison.
Is there any other examples you want to use or are you just going use the same one over and over and over again?
 
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wabrams:
Is there any other examples you want to use or are you just going use the same one over and over and over again?
How many examples do you need to illustrate the problem?

Shall we make a list of all those who have committed murder in prison? How about a list of all those gang-raped and infected with AIDS?

Perhaps we should have a list of people killed by escaped, parolled or released prisoners, perhaps starting with the Groene family?
 
vern humphrey:
How many examples do you need to illustrate the problem?

Shall we make a list of all those who have committed murder in prison? How about a list of all those gang-raped and infected with AIDS?

Perhaps we should have a list of people killed by escaped, parolled or released prisoners, perhaps starting with the Groene family?
Our system is flawed, there is no doubt, but were all of the people you refer to convicted of capital crimes? If not, then capital punishment would have done nothing to prevent them from committing these additional crimes.
 
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JimO:
Our system is flawed, there is no doubt, but were all of the people you refer to convicted of capital crimes? If not, then capital punishment would have done nothing to prevent them from committing these additional crimes.
Thank you – you’re making my point for me.

Silverstein committed murder and got a life sentence. At that time, the court had struck down the death penalty, and no state yet had a new death penalty statute that would pass muster.

Then Silverstein committed a murder in prison – and got another life sentence.

Then he killed a corrections officer – and guess what?

When you have a prison full of people with multiple life sentences, what more can you give them when they murder, gang-rape, or commit other crimes?
 
vern humphrey:
How many examples do you need to illustrate the problem?

Shall we make a list of all those who have committed murder in prison? How about a list of all those gang-raped and infected with AIDS?

Perhaps we should have a list of people killed by escaped, parolled or released prisoners, perhaps starting with the Groene family?
How about some hard statistics? Maybe the number over prisoners w/ life sentences who committed homicide while in prison? I think thta would show how much of a problem there is.
 
vern humphrey:
Shall we make a list of all those who have committed murder in prison? How about a list of all those gang-raped and infected with AIDS?

Perhaps we should have a list of people killed by escaped, parolled or released prisoners, perhaps starting with the Groene family?
I was refering to these criminals (not your specific example) and I was pointing out that many repeat crimes are committed by those who were not previously convicted of murder. Thus, where would you draw the line when executing prisoners? First-degree capital murder cases only? Well, that might have taken care of the individual you refer to, but it wouldn’t address those who were killed by escaped convicts whose previous crime wasn’t a capital offense. It also wouldn’t necessarily address those who participated in gang rapes and infected others with AIDS.

My sister was murdered by a repeat offender who had never before killed or raped anyone. Capital punishment would have done nothing to save her life.

We have a flawed system, but capital punishment isn’t the answer, and I contend that most proponents of capital punishment use the “protection of society” argument when they really are motivated by a desire for vengence. That’s been my point in all my posts.
 
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JimO:
I was refering to these criminals (not your specific example) and I was pointing out that many repeat crimes are committed by those who were not previously convicted of murder. Thus, where would you draw the line when executing prisoners? First-degree capital murder cases only? Well, that might have taken care of the individual you refer to, but it wouldn’t address those who were killed by escaped convicts whose previous crime wasn’t a capital offense. It also wouldn’t necessarily address those who participated in gang rapes and infected others with AIDS.

My sister was murdered by a repeat offender who had never before killed or raped anyone. Capital punishment would have done nothing to save her life.

We have a flawed system, but capital punishment isn’t the answer, and I contend that most proponents of capital punishment use the “protection of society” argument when they really are motivated by a desire for vengence. That’s been my point in all my posts.
My deepest sympathy for your sister – but many crimes are committed by those who have nothing to lose.

Imagine a man who has a life sentence hanging over him – what punishment can he possibly fear if there is no death penalty?
 
vern humphrey:
My deepest sympathy for your sister – but many crimes are committed by those who have nothing to lose.

Imagine a man who has a life sentence hanging over him – what punishment can he possibly fear if there is no death penalty?
Having nothing to loose is a state of mind that occurs in and out of prison. Crimes can be committed by people who see “normal” life as a dead end where going against the system can be rationalized because you are not one of the beneficiaries of it. When people see no escape from the ugliness around them they lose hope, and with that they lose respect for themselves. If you don’t respect yourself you can’t be expected to respect others.

As to prisoners sentenced to life without parole lacking a deterent because there is no death penalty, I would ask you to consider that for people having nothing to lose dying is not much of a threat. It depends on your point of view, wouldn’t you say. To be caged as an animal with other animals more or less vicious than myself would be intolerable and well worth the ending of my misery. :hmmm:
 
Vatican II:
Having nothing to loose is a state of mind that occurs in and out of prison.
That’s kind of like saying people have flats all the time, so it’s not wrong to go down the street slashing tires.

When you have criminals who have nothing to lose, who see that whatever they do, they cannot be punished any more than they’re already being punished, you have a disaster in waiting.
Vatican II:
Crimes can be committed by people who see “normal” life as a dead end where going against the system can be rationalized because you are not one of the beneficiaries of it. When people see no escape from the ugliness around them they lose hope, and with that they lose respect for themselves. If you don’t respect yourself you can’t be expected to respect others.
That’s a pretty theory – but no one is forced to commit crimes. When Sammy commits murder, it isn’t because Johnny was more successful in life.
Vatican II:
As to prisoners sentenced to life without parole lacking a deterent because there is no death penalty, I would ask you to consider that for people having nothing to lose dying is not much of a threat. It depends on your point of view, wouldn’t you say. To be caged as an animal with other animals more or less vicious than myself would be intolerable and well worth the ending of my misery. :hmmm:
If dying is not much of a threat for these criminals, why do they go to such great lengths to make improvised weapons?
 
There has never been a shred of evidence in any country to show the death penalty is a deterrent.
In Singapore people convicted of drug dealing are even executed, not just murderers. people come to trial quickly and nobody sits on death row for more than a few weeks.
That hasn’t stopped people killing or dealing in drugs so the argument that you have to increase the number of executions to make it a deterrent has proved to be ludicrous.
 
Even if the threat of death was a deterrent, that would not justify a liberal death penalty. The the death penalty should be a last resort, not an example.

My personal feelings are to stop arresting people all together and just shoot any perp you catch in the middle of a crime. Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. Good thing I’m not in charge. 😃
 
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thistle:
There has never been a shred of evidence in any country to show the death penalty is a deterrent.
In Singapore people convicted of drug dealing are even executed, not just murderers. people come to trial quickly and nobody sits on death row for more than a few weeks.
That hasn’t stopped people killing or dealing in drugs so the argument that you have to increase the number of executions to make it a deterrent has proved to be ludicrous.
You picked the wrong example – I used to live in Singapore, and took an interest in issues like that.

Singapore (with a population then of about 2.5 million) was targeted for takeover by the Asian drug cartels – if they succeeded, they’d have their own country, and that country sits astride one of the greatest transportation crossroads in the world.

The death penalty for selling drugs was instituted as a counter-measure, and it worked.

And if anyone doubts that the death penalty has a chilling effect on drugs in Singapore, I invite them to spend a few weeks in Singapore – and then cross the Causeway into Malasia!!
 
vern humphrey:
You picked the wrong example – I used to live in Singapore, and took an interest in issues like that.

Singapore (with a population then of about 2.5 million) was targeted for takeover by the Asian drug cartels – if they succeeded, they’d have their own country, and that country sits astride one of the greatest transportation crossroads in the world.

The death penalty for selling drugs was instituted as a counter-measure, and it worked.

And if anyone doubts that the death penalty has a chilling effect on drugs in Singapore, I invite them to spend a few weeks in Singapore – and then cross the Causeway into Malasia!!
I lived in Singapore for 14 years and also took an interest in that and I don’t agree with you. People are still being hanged for drug dealing. It didn’t stop.
 
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thistle:
I lived in Singapore for 14 years and also took an interest in that and I don’t agree with you. People are still being hanged for drug dealing. It didn’t stop.
Is it your position that the drug cartels took over Singapore and now rule that nation?

Do you consider the rate of drug dealing in Singapore to be higher than in Malasia?
 
vern humphrey:
Is it your position that the drug cartels took over Singapore and now rule that nation?

Do you consider the rate of drug dealing in Singapore to be higher than in Malasia?
The drug cartels have never ruled Singapore.
By rate do you mean number of cases per head of population? If so I don’t know that off-hand but with a population 24 million Malaysia certainly has a greater number of cases. Also remember in Singapore most of the drug addicts and drug criminals have tended to be Malays so simply maintaining certain ratios of ethnic groups as the total population grows would see a reduction in drug related cases.
It might be that we have to agree to disagree and not let this thread turn into a Singapore thread.
My original point is that the death penalty really is not a deterrent. Why would so many countries ban it if it was such a great murder deterrent?
 
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thistle:
The drug cartels have never ruled Singapore.
Because Singapore took drastic measurs to stop them.
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thistle:
By rate do you mean number of cases per head of population? If so I don’t know that off-hand but with a population 24 million Malaysia certainly has a greater number of cases.
When you say Singapore’s approach doesn’t work, shouldn’t you have some idea?

But surely you’ve crossed the Causeway? You’ve traveled in Malasia? The difference is obvious even to the untutored eye.
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thistle:
Also remember in Singapore most of the drug addicts and drug criminals have tended to be Malays so simply maintaining certain ratios of ethnic groups as the total population grows would see a reduction in drug related cases.
Or “unemployed Hokkein speakers.” http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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thistle:
It might be that we have to agree to disagree and not let this thread turn into a Singapore thread.
My original point is that the death penalty really is not a deterrent. Why would so many countries ban it if it was such a great murder deterrent?
Why would so many countries allow unfettered abortion?

What countries do is an indication of the values of the population, not of their common sense.
 
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Orionthehunter:
Life in prison w/o possibility of parole and having to look daily at a picture of the victim until they make a sincere repentance and asking of forgiveness from the victim or the victim’s family. I hold out hope and desire that this person comes to see the evil in they did and turns to God so they may fulfill their calling to reside eternally with the Father. Let’s not forget that God loves this person as much as he loves the holiest among us. His love is unconditional, unchanging, and eternal.
Some of these people, like serial killers, have no conscience. They will seldom if ever repent. Some of them are criminally insane. Not even psychotherapy will help them. Religion will not help them, of course it does no harm to give them a Bible (softcover) to keep in the cell.
 
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Celeste88:
Some of these people, like serial killers, have no conscience. They will seldom if ever repent. Some of them are criminally insane. Not even psychotherapy will help them. Religion will not help them, of course it does no harm to give them a Bible (softcover) to keep in the cell.
Some people are so incredibly dangerous that we must question the wisdom of keeping them incarcerated.
 
vern humphrey:
Because Singapore took drastic measurs to stop them.

When you say Singapore’s approach doesn’t work, shouldn’t you have some idea?

But surely you’ve crossed the Causeway? You’ve traveled in Malasia? The difference is obvious even to the untutored eye.

Or “unemployed Hokkein speakers.” http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Why would so many countries allow unfettered abortion?

What countries do is an indication of the values of the population, not of their common sense.
amnestyusa.org/countries/singapore/document.do?id=14C1E722FEE4F90E80256DFE0068898C
 
thistle said:

Amnesty International and Amnesty USA oppos the death penalty – but we knew that.

Singapore executes for murder and drug pushing – but we knew that.

Nothing in the cited article says Singapore is losing the drug war. But if you are familiar with some of the cases, one fact jumps out – the number of non-Singaporeans executed. Having been there and gone through some of these cases, I can tell you that Singapore is catching and executing international drug smugglers who use Singapore as a transit point. That’s an indicator of success.
 
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