Against the death penalty? Give me your alternative...

[Proelium_Frater]

I have a question for those of you against the death penalty.

What is the worst punishment you are willing to mete out to a criminal?

Assume he is 100% guilty of the most heinous cime imaginable (a child rapist & murderer comes to mind). If the death penalty is out, tell me what your ‘best’ offer is. Describe what you think the prison conditions should be like, any additional rehab, etc.

Personally, I prefer the death penalty for serious crimes (murder, rape, etc). But if it wasn’t available, life in prison, in a solitary 4x8 concrete cell, no door (use a ‘pit’ style cell. The ‘door’ would be a grate in the ceiling), no windows, nothing. A bed/bench & a toilet is all they get. Hose 'em down once a week with a pressure washer.

I’d suggest daily beatings, but that would require too much human contact…

 

[Orionthehunter]

Proelium Frater:

I have a question for those of you against the death penalty.

What is the worst punishment you are willing to mete out to a criminal?

Assume he is 100% guilty of the most heinous cime imaginable (a child rapist & murderer comes to mind). If the death penalty is out, tell me what your ‘best’ offer is. Describe what you think the prison conditions should be like, any additional rehab, etc.

Personally, I prefer the death penalty for serious crimes (murder, rape, etc). But if it wasn’t available, life in prison, in a solitary 4x8 concrete cell, no door (use a ‘pit’ style cell. The ‘door’ would be a grate in the ceiling), no windows, nothing. A bed/bench & a toilet is all they get. Hose 'em down once a week with a pressure washer.

I’d suggest daily beatings, but that would require too much human contact…

Life in prison w/o possibility of parole and having to look daily at a picture of the victim until they make a sincere repentance and asking of forgiveness from the victim or the victim’s family. I hold out hope and desire that this person comes to see the evil in they did and turns to God so they may fulfill their calling to reside eternally with the Father. Let’s not forget that God loves this person as much as he loves the holiest among us. His love is unconditional, unchanging, and eternal.

 

[wabrams]

Proelium Frater:

I’d suggest daily beatings, but that would require too much human contact…

If you do that you could very well end up with a worse monster than you started with.

 

[Proelium_Frater]

wabrams:

If you do that you could very well end up with a worse monster than you started with.

Possibly. But I would have no intention of ever, ever, ever, letting the monster out of its cage. When I say ‘Life’ in prison. I mean just that. They will die in their cage, alone, and without any sympathy.

(The Beatings comment wasn’t meant to be taken too seriously)

 

[AMJ]

I don’t mean to not answer your question (using the always-dreaded double negative). However, as someone opposed to the death penalty, I’d like to share this thought with you. By your own statement, “those of you against the death penalty”, you make it clear that you are not in that camp yourself.

For some time I had been anti abortion and pro death penalty. I think I had logical reasons for those positions, and was aware that some (who are way more informed than I am) imply that the language in the Commandments is really, “Thou shalt not murder”, as opposed to “Thou shalt not kill.” That opens a pretty wide door as far as the death penalty is concerned.

However, I started to segregate those things that I “think” from those things that I “believe”. I’m sure you’ll understand that those are very different. At the heart of that process was uncovering whatever I could that was truth.

Where life is concerned, truth for me is that all life belongs to God. I have my life from Him (what a wonderful gift!) so that I can exercise my free will as I attempt to become as Christ-like as possible – failing as I do along the way…pretty much every day. He picks me up, dusts me off, and gives me another chance with HIS life. So I guess (IMHO) that it is ultimately a matter of ownership. Taking something from you that is yours, without your permission, is bad enough. Taking something that’s His, is an entirely more serious matter.

(Note: I’m sure there are many who would argue that, once He gives me my life, it’s mine. Go ahead and argue. I’m still somewhere between “think” and “believe”, so your arguments would be helpful.)

But to answer your real question, I’d want the murderer to still have a chance to become more Christ-like, so long as he can never repeat his heinous acts. That he loses his human freedom is sufficient. The conditions aren’t that important.

 

[Proelium_Frater]

AMJ:

I don’t mean to not answer your question (using the always-dreaded double negative). However, as someone opposed to the death penalty, I’d like to share this thought with you. By your own statement, “those of you against the death penalty”, you make it clear that you are not in that camp yourself.

For some time I had been anti abortion and pro death penalty. I think I had logical reasons for those positions, and was aware that some (who are way more informed than I am) imply that the language in the Commandments is really, “Thou shalt not murder”, as opposed to “Thou shalt not kill.” That opens a pretty wide door as far as the death penalty is concerned.

However, I started to segregate those things that I “think” from those things that I “believe”. I’m sure you’ll understand that those are very different. At the heart of that process was uncovering whatever I could that was truth.

Where life is concerned, truth for me is that all life belongs to God. I have my life from Him (what a wonderful gift!) so that I can exercise my free will as I attempt to become as Christ-like as possible – failing as I do along the way…pretty much every day. He picks me up, dusts me off, and gives me another chance with HIS life. So I guess (IMHO) that it is ultimately a matter of ownership. Taking something from you that is yours, without your permission, is bad enough. Taking something that’s His, is an entirely more serious matter.

(Note: I’m sure there are many who would argue that, once He gives me my life, it’s mine. Go ahead and argue. I’m still somewhere between “think” and “believe”, so your arguments would be helpful.)

But to answer your real question, I’d want the murderer to still have a chance to become more Christ-like, so long as he can never repeat his heinous acts. That he loses his human freedom is sufficient. The conditions aren’t that important.

Just so you know my views, I firmly believe that when a person commits such a serious crime, they throw their own life and future away…just as a suicide case throws their life away.

I think justice should be dispensed on Earth as much as possible- Especially since God is so forgiving. I think I’d rather be in Hell myself than to see a man that had raped and murdered children in heaven…

 

[Proelium_Frater]

Oh, and just an FYI- I’m not looking to argue with anyone on this. I genuinely want to know what punishments people would find approrpiate if Death is denied.

I personally don’t believe in Rehab- only punishment.

 

[vluvski]

I think all prisons are way too cushy. If we stopped giving people gyms, cable TV, and other amenities, we could definitely afford to keep those worst killers and rapists locked up for life. We probably wouldn’t even have to do away with all that since the cost of an execution is astronomical.

I strongly disagree with the pressure washing, daily beatings, etc, and I also believe all of us could use a dose of humility. Mercy is something we all need, but those of us who think we need less of it often do not want to give any to the ones who we think don’t deserve it. The truth is that none of us deserve any of it, and all of us need lots. Let’s all pray tonight that we will be able to love as God loves, despite the faults of even the most hardened criminals.

 

[Steven_Merten]

AMJ:

I
Where life is concerned, truth for me is that all life belongs to God. I have my life from Him (what a wonderful gift!) so that I can exercise my free will as I attempt to become as Christ-like as possible – failing as I do along the way…pretty much every day. He picks me up, dusts me off, and gives me another chance with HIS life. So I guess (IMHO) that it is ultimately a matter of ownership. Taking something from you that is yours, without your permission, is bad enough. Taking something that’s His, is an entirely more serious matter.

Hello AMJ,

So if you believe that a murder’s life belongs to God and God authorizes and commands man to kill a murderer, that would be ok in your thinking. Is this correct? God is just utilizing His right and ownership over the murderer’s life. God is just taking something that is His in your eyes and commanding man to kill it. Right?

Please visit Throwing Stones

**NAB GEN 9:6 **

"If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made."

 

[vluvski]

Proelium Frater:

I think justice should be dispensed on Earth as much as possible- Especially since God is so forgiving. I think I’d rather be in Hell myself than to see a man that had raped and murdered children in heaven…

I would rather be with my fellow repentant sinners in heaven than even taste a moment of hell. I may not have murdered or raped anyone, but I still need all the mercy I can get. Every time I go to Mass, I am so ashamed of all my sins. Praise Jesus that we have a loving and forgiving God who still wants us to join in communion with Him and receive Him in the Eucharist.
That attitude might very well force you to make good on that thought, though. I pray that you will reconsider.

 

[vluvski]

I also believe that when/where an execution is necessary (meets the conditions required by the Church to make it OK), it should be done with the attitude that God knows the hearts of the prisoner, and will deal with him accordingly, rather than, “I’m gonna send this blankety-blank right to you-know-where.”

 

[JimO]

Proelium Frater:

Oh, and just an FYI- I’m not looking to argue with anyone on this. I genuinely want to know what punishments people would find approrpiate if Death is denied.

I personally don’t believe in Rehab- only punishment.

My question to you would be - would this punishment extend to the afterlife? In other words, would you refuse a murderer/rapist/molester the opportunity to repent and reconcile with God?

The primary purpose, in my mind, of avoiding the death penalty is to allow the person this opportunity.

 

[Steven_Merten]

vluvski:

I also believe that when/where an execution is necessary (meets the conditions required by the Church to make it OK), it should be done with the attitude that God knows the hearts of the prisoner, and will deal with him accordingly, rather than, "I’m gonna send this blankety-blank right to you-know-where."

Hello vluvski,

When the Church uses the Christ given keys to the Kingdom to send a man to “you-know-where”, does God have the opportunity to judge his heart? Jesus swears that anyone that St. Peter (Apostolic Successors) holds bound to sin, He will hold bound to sin in heaven. Can Jesus go back on His sworn oath? Can Jesus say, “well I know that you St. Peter (Apostolic Successors) have utilized my sworn oath to hold anyone bound to sin in heaven that you bind to sin on earth, but I have decided to overide my sworn oath and forgive this guy anyway”? I don’t think Jesus can go back on His word?

I would hope that most Catholics consider Catholic Church anathema as far deadlier (spiritual death) than state physical capital punishment.

Anathema

In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”

He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

**NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

NAB REV 1:16

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”
NAB ISA 11:4

He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.​

**NAB JOH 20:20 **

“Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” **NAB MAT 18:17 **

“If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven.”

 

[LSK]

This is probably one of the most difficult questions I have ever had to deal with as a Catholic Christian. I know that we are called to love and compassion, but it is so very difficult, in light of some of the horrendous crimes committed today, to keep a balance between justice and the proper practice of our Catholic faith as well as how to minister to the victims and to the victims’ families.

I know that one of the problems I have with the death penalty is that it has such a finality to it and there have been so many, many mistakes. The DNA project has shown that problems with labs, with eye-witness testimony, with outright corruption in police and prosecutors offices around the country have made the possiblity of innocent men and women being put to death for crimes they did not commit being very real and very common phenomenon.

I also know that Christ taught that we are to render unto Cesar what is Cesar, and if the law of the land calls for the death penalty in the case of certain crimes and the person is found guilty of that crime then they must be willing to face that penalty.

As a Catholic, I struggle with this issue. I have been blessed in that I have not been called to serve on a jury that must decide a capital offense. Has anyone had that experience? How did you deal with it, if you did?

 

[Al_Masetti]

As currently administered, life without parole involves prisoners assaulting guards on a frequent basis, throwing feces, fabricating weapons out of tightly twisted paper or plastic, etc. Prisoners are allowed out of their cells for a variety of reasons. Violent criminals often rape other criminals.

One alternative is that prisoners be given generously sized cells (for example, 10 feet by 30 feet), but then NEVER come out. They stay by themselves. Meals are slid in once a day. If they stop up the toilet, that’s tough. No more communal showers; they wash themselves in their cell. The door is sealed shut. Until their sentence is served, if it is less than life and until they die, if it is a life sentence. They exercise in their cells. They have light. They can request books. Some arrangement for communications through the security window. No mixing with other prisoners. No more turning a prison into a “Criminal University” where criminals round out their education and become better crooks and better killers.

They stay in their cells 24/7/365. They learn not to break things or to set fires, because they aren’t going to get a lot of attention that way. If they set a fire, then the guards flush the cell with a hose. And the prisoner may have to wait a month before the damage is repaired or he is transferred to another cell.

It is not intended to be a really nice place to be; not a vacation. Not intended to cost the state more to be incarcerated than at a fine resort.

 

[Proelium_Frater]

JimO:

My question to you would be - would this punishment extend to the afterlife? In other words, would you refuse a murderer/rapist/molester the opportunity to repent and reconcile with God?

The primary purpose, in my mind, of avoiding the death penalty is to allow the person this opportunity.

They need to be punished here on earth ESPECIALLY because they can repent. The punishment needs to be much harsher, as it is finite…if they repent, then no eternal punishment.

They have their opportunity while waiting for their execution. If the prison system was better, I might not be so pro-death penalty. Life in prison should be just that- Life. They should die there.

No health care, no college education, no parole. No drugs, no smokes, no personal entertainment or human interaction. Lock 'em up, throw away the key. Feed them, water them, keep the temp at a constant 72 degrees. Nothing more, nothing less. That covers their basic basic human needs for shelter, food, and water. Leave the light at a constant level (not too bright, but not dark either).

If this were done, I would not mind abolishing the death penalty- It wouldn’t be necessary. I don’t think a prisoner would survive more than 10-15 years under those conditions anyhow…

 

[JimO]

I’m not sure I understand your point, but the passage you quoted clearly leaves open the opportunity for repentance. That is the reason for avoiding, or at least postponing the death penalty. I shuddered at PF’s apparent position that anyone who commits a murder/rape, etc. should be damned and using that to justify capital punishment. This is man’s thinking, not God’s.
Steven Merten:

I would hope that most Catholics consider Catholic Church anathema as far deadlier (spiritual death) than state physical capital punishment.

Anathema
“Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”

 

[Chris_W]

Al Masetti:

One alternative is that prisoners be given generously sized cells (for example, 10 feet by 30 feet), but then NEVER come out. They stay by themselves. Meals are slid in once a day. If they stop up the toilet, that’s tough. No more communal showers; they wash themselves in their cell. The door is sealed shut. Until their sentence is served, if it is less than life and until they die, if it is a life sentence. They exercise in their cells. They have light. They can request books. Some arrangement for communications through the security window. No mixing with other prisoners. No more turning a prison into a “Criminal University” where criminals round out their education and become better crooks and better killers.

They stay in their cells 24/7/365. They learn not to break things or to set fires, because they aren’t going to get a lot of attention that way. If they set a fire, then the guards flush the cell with a hose. And the prisoner may have to wait a month before the damage is repaired or he is transferred to another cell.

I agree. I would only add that the content of reading materials be limited to materials that will in no way distract the person from what he/she needs to be thinking about. There is no need for knowledge about politics, academics, social life or any of that because they will never be released.

They need to read about reformed convicts, God, peace, remorse, the pain they have caused, the importance of family, philosophy, etc. That is all.

It is not our place to seek revenge. The only objective in incarceration is to prevent future crime and keep society safe. It costs a lot of money, no doubt, but society foots the bill for all kinds of things we’d rather not…for the common good. It is likewise for the common good that the person live until God decides the end has come for that person. I could never be responsible for preventing a conversion, by taking the life before God sees fit to take it.

 

[JimO]

Proelium Frater:

No health care, no college education, no parole. No drugs, no smokes, no personal entertainment or human interaction. Lock 'em up, throw away the key. Feed them, water them, keep the temp at a constant 72 degrees. Nothing more, nothing less. That covers their basic basic human needs for shelter, food, and water. Leave the light at a constant level (not too bright, but not dark either).

I don’t disagree with this at all. I think that prison should be harsh, but humane.
Proelium Frater:

I think I’d rather be in Hell myself than to see a man that had raped and murdered children in heaven

This statement made me shudder. You have to know in your heart that this isn’t God’s way.

So that you know where I am coming from, my sister was murdered by a life-long criminal who was robbing employee lockers at a university restaurant. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time. To make a very long story short, he went to prison and was released after ten years. My family struggled with the whole thing, but I can honestly say that I would have derived no satisfaction from his death or his damnation. We recently found out that he died of natural causes. I truly hope he repented and I’m sure my sister forgave him, even before she died. She was that kind of person she was.

 

[Proelium_Frater]

Al Masetti:

As currently administered, life without parole involves prisoners assaulting guards on a frequent basis, throwing feces, fabricating weapons out of tightly twisted paper or plastic, etc. Prisoners are allowed out of their cells for a variety of reasons. Violent criminals often rape other criminals.

One alternative is that prisoners be given generously sized cells (for example, 10 feet by 30 feet), but then NEVER come out. They stay by themselves. Meals are slid in once a day. If they stop up the toilet, that’s tough. No more communal showers; they wash themselves in their cell. The door is sealed shut. Until their sentence is served, if it is less than life and until they die, if it is a life sentence. They exercise in their cells. They have light. They can request books. Some arrangement for communications through the security window. No mixing with other prisoners. No more turning a prison into a “Criminal University” where criminals round out their education and become better crooks and better killers.

They stay in their cells 24/7/365. They learn not to break things or to set fires, because they aren’t going to get a lot of attention that way. If they set a fire, then the guards flush the cell with a hose. And the prisoner may have to wait a month before the damage is repaired or he is transferred to another cell.

It is not intended to be a really nice place to be; not a vacation. Not intended to cost the state more to be incarcerated than at a fine resort.

Agreed…although I’m for smaller cells. That way the people who are serving a light sentence come out weak. Make prison a two-stage system.

Stage One- Punishment.

• Small Cell
• No Human Contact
• Minimal food & water (something unpleasant, but nutritious?)
• Minimal entertainment (Access to religious literature of their denomination, or a book off of an approved list of literature)

Stage Two- Rehab (only for light sentances)

• Psychiatric evaluation & treatment
• Work in prison-run industry
• Implant of GPS tracking device for future probationary period

Upon release, the convict would be tracked 24 hours a day (by computer), for the duration of his/her probation.

Minor criminals (assault, battery, petty theft, posession of drugs, other non-violent, & MINOR violent crimes) would get the two stage process.

Major Criminals (repeat offenders of minor crimes, violent criminals, all rapists, all child molesters, all murderers) get the first stage only. Nothing else. Leave 'em to rot in prison forever.

What d’ya think? Would it be palatable to you?