Against the death penalty? Give me your alternative...

[Proelium_Frater]

JimO:

This statement made me shudder. You have to know in your heart that this isn’t God’s way.

That may be, but I would probably go to hell anyway after hunting him down and killing him slowly. Very, very, slowly. People who hurt children deserve the worst we can possibly give them.

I know, my opinion is not Catholic, & not PC.

I really don’t care if its not God’s way. If anyone hurts my family they WILL pay. I don’t expect justice from the courts anymore anymore, so I expect I’d have to take matters into my own hands. Sometimes I just have to things my way…

Sorry, one of my ‘touchy’ subjects…

 

[AMJ]

Steven Merten:

Hello AMJ,

So if you believe that a murder’s life belongs to God and God authorizes and commands man to kill a murderer, that would be ok in your thinking. ** Is this correct? ** God is just utilizing His right and ownership over the murderer’s life. God is just taking something that is His in your eyes and commanding man to kill it. Right?

Please visit Throwing Stones

**NAB GEN 9:6 **

"If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made."

Hi Steve,

Why do I feel like you’re poking me inthe chest?

Is that correct? Right?

To quote Monty Python, “No one expects the Spanish IInquisition!!”

I guess this is an instance where my background in scripture is still insufficient to follow your point to its (less than obvious) conclusion. I can trump your scripture with “Thou shalt not kill.” More informed people (more scripturally informed, that is) probably have other, better counter-scriptures.

So I guess I’m saying that I don’t know that the scripture you provide COMMANDS me to kill anybody. That being the case, my answers are No (Is that correct?) and No (Right?).

I’m still quite stable in my position. Please try again.

 

[JimO]

Proelium Frater:

I really don’t care if its not God’s way. If anyone hurts my family they WILL pay. I don’t expect justice from the courts anymore anymore, so I expect I’d have to take matters into my own hands. Sometimes I just have to things my way…

Sorry, one of my ‘touchy’ subjects…

I feel pretty strongly about it myself. My sister was 19 and I loved her very much. There is no ultimate justice that man can level, that is God’s job.

Remember the parable about the servent who was forgiven much and refused to forgive his fellow servent a small amount? Well, we have all sinned in God’s eyes and been offered forgiveness and the gift of eternal life, not by our own merits, but by God’s grace. If I think that I am more deserving of heaven because I haven’t murdered a child, then I am way off base.

If I refuse to forgive even my sister’s murderer, then I reject God’s forgiveness of my many sins and because of that bitterness and unforgiveness will ultimately hate God because He showed mercy on someone who I refused to forgive. In that state, standing before God, I would send myself to hell cursing God.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

Proelium Frater:

I think I’d rather be in Hell myself than to see a man that had raped and murdered children in heaven…

I sincerely hope you reconsider this statement.

God loves all of us…from the Mother Thersa’s to the murdering child raping monsters. We were all created by Him.

All of us are fallen beings. None of us is perfect. It is precisely these horrible monsters that have strayed so far from God’s love that we want to see in heaven. If there is hope for them then there is hope for us all!

To put it in a more personal setting, what if that murdering child raping monster was your child? Would you not long for his return to God?

Malia

 

[LSK]

This is what the Holy Mother Church teaches, according to the Catholic Catechism:

**2267 **Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

---

I always find, as an Obedient Daughter of the Holy Mother Church, to turn to Her teachings for guidance when confronted by such questions as the one we are discussing.

Does this help anyone else?

 

[Trelow]

JimO:

I feel pretty strongly about it myself. My sister was 19 and I loved her very much. There is no ultimate justice that man can level, that is God’s job.

Remember the parable about the servent who was forgiven much and refused to forgive his fellow servent a small amount? Well, we have all sinned in God’s eyes and been offered forgiveness and the gift of eternal life, not by our own merits, but by God’s grace. If I think that I am more deserving of heaven because I haven’t murdered a child, then I am way off base.

If I refuse to forgive even my sister’s murderer, then I reject God’s forgiveness of my many sins and because of that bitterness and unforgiveness will ultimately hate God because He showed mercy on someone who I refused to forgive. In that state, standing before God, I would send myself to hell cursing God.

Excellent post.

 

[LSK]

JimO, you are a true example of a Christian man in action. Thank you, sir, for your witness.

 

[Proelium_Frater]

Feanaro's Wife:

I sincerely hope you reconsider this statement.

God loves all of us…from the Mother Thersa’s to the murdering child raping monsters. We were all created by Him.

All of us are fallen beings. None of us is perfect. It is precisely these horrible monsters that have strayed so far from God’s love that we want to see in heaven. If there is hope for them then there is hope for us all!

To put it in a more personal setting, what if that murdering child raping monster was your child? Would you not long for his return to God?

Malia

As of now, I am childless. But, I sincerely hope that they will be raised in such a way as to take responsibility for their own actions.

I hope that I would have the moral fortitude to turn my child in to the proper authorities for their punishment. Even execution. I would not in any way hold it against the family of those he/she hurt if they sought vengeance…even a cruel vengeance. Each person has a personal responsibility for their actions, no one else can be held accountable for them.

As to eternal damnation? That is not for me to inflict, but yes, I hope that even my child (or anyone) who purposely commits such heinous crimes is punished by God for all eternity.

I hope for heaven, but expect hell. I truly don’t think there will be many in heaven…not many at all.

 

[Proelium_Frater]

Can we please get back on track? I did not mean to hijack my own thread…

What alternative punishments would you prefer for the most horrible offenders on this Earth?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Proelium Frater:

Oh, and just an FYI- I’m not looking to argue with anyone on this. I genuinely want to know what punishments people would find approrpiate if Death is denied.

I personally don’t believe in Rehab- only punishment.

OK. That’s what you want. I am not interested in punishment. I am interested in the following:

1. life contained in an area where further harm to other human beings is not possible.
2. whatever care the prisoner needs and this might look like high security zoo-keeping. If the prisoner needs medical care, he should be shot with a tranquilizer gun first. Cleaning and repair of the cell should be done while the prisoner is shunted into an adjoining area – like in a zoo. Showers and exercise in that adjoining area. No tools allowed in the cell. Food can be dished out into a moveable sliding shelf and can be eated with the hands. Clothing is only a jump suit with velcro fastenings. No bedclothes.

The only thing I can suggest about punishment is that wanting that is wanting to stay attached to the past instead of living in freedom. Only God can give a person the gift of forgiveness and only if the person asks for it.

Now I know accidents happen in prison. In that event it’s a shoot-to-kill policy. I don’t know enough about the death penalty and don’t live in a death penalty culture to be able to say – yes – let’s have the death penalty back.

 

[LSK]

Proelium Frater:

Can we please get back on track? I did not mean to hijack my own thread…

What alternative punishments would you prefer for the most horrible offenders on this Earth?

I can think of no worse punishment that being deprived of freedom and confined in the prison system we have in place right now. For those who have committed horrendous crimes, such as a Scott Peterson or a BTK, to never again be allowed to walk free and to be confined to a cell forever with minimal human contact is horrible punishment. I would allow them spiritual counsel, however, so as to provide them the opportunity to spend eternity with Our Lord.

 

[Maranatha]

I think the CC position on the death penalty is not so much about the meting of justice to the criminal but what it does to each of us individually and to our society as a whole. Capricious use of the death penalty undermines the sanctity of life and promotes its devaluation. This degradation then extends it to other aspects of our society. By standing on the side of life, we witness our beliefs.

 

[Al_Masetti]

A word about revenge, punishment, turning the other cheek…

I, as an individual, have - in a civil society - no recourse in terms of exacting personal revenge against someone who has committed a heinous crime against me or a family member. Period.

On the other hand, the civil authorities have a responsibility and a duty to make sure that the criminal doesn’t do it again. If it’s a “capital crime” (normally punishable by capital punishment), the government has the reponsibility to exact the punishment called for in the code of laws.

I, as an individual, have an obligation to forgive. I, as an individual, have no right, however, to let the criminal free to repeat the crime against others. I must / am commanded by Jesus, God the Son of God, to forgive, to turn the other cheek.

The civil authorities have an obligation not to fool themselves by allowing criminals to “game the system”. [This seems to happen a lot.]

No one is entitled to revenge. Even the idea of “punishment” is suspect. But in the case of crimes, the civil authorities need to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Someone who has murdered before has demonstrated that they are not intimidated by the potential for incarceration / removal from polite society. So they need to be removed. Such removal may be regarded as “punishment”, but “if you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.”

 

[Proelium_Frater]

Al Masetti:

A word about revenge, punishment, turning the other cheek…

I, as an individual, have - in a civil society - no recourse in terms of exacting personal revenge against someone who has committed a heinous crime against me or a family member. Period.

On the other hand, the civil authorities have a responsibility and a duty to make sure that the criminal doesn’t do it again. If it’s a “capital crime” (normally punishable by capital punishment), the government has the reponsibility to exact the punishment called for in the code of laws.

I, as an individual, have an obligation to forgive. I, as an individual, have no right, however, to let the criminal free to repeat the crime against others. I must / am commanded by Jesus, God the Son of God, to forgive, to turn the other cheek.

The civil authorities have an obligation not to fool themselves by allowing criminals to “game the system”. [This seems to happen a lot.]

No one is entitled to revenge. Even the idea of “punishment” is suspect. But in the case of crimes, the civil authorities need to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Someone who has murdered before has demonstrated that they are not intimidated by the potential for incarceration / removal from polite society. So they need to be removed. Such removal may be regarded as “punishment”, but “if you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.”

I as an individual, think that the ‘civil society’ is morally bankrupt, and we are much better off taking care of ourselves.

Does anyone know where I can find a different society? This one sucks…

 

[Maranatha]

My alternative to the death penalty is:

Pray
Fast
Worship
Adore the Eucharist
Confess my sins
Live a Christian life
Study and explain my faith

 

[catsrus]

I think all prisons are way too cushy.

Have you ever actually been in a prison? I have been in 3 of the Huntsville, TX prisons (NOT as an inmate) and they are beyond awful. I also had a prison ministry for 2 years in AZ and I’m here to tell you that they were almost as bad as TX.

I do not believe anyone is beyond repentance or the love of God.
Life in prison is the max as far as I’m concerned, in answer to the op’s question. “Living” in prison for years on end (most especially in Texas!) is a far worse punishment than the death penalty.
Ask anyone who’s had a loved one murdered if they found relief in their minds and peace in their hearts after the execution of the perpetrator. Most will say “no” because their loved one is still gone.

Remember, we are forgiven with the same measure that we give to others. I believe my many sins over a lifetime may add up to being far worse than a person who committs a grievious fault in a angry moment, or more. Perhaps God will find me more difficult to forgive than a Timothy McVeigh. I must keep that thought in the forefront of my mind at all times.

 

[aurora77]

When I think of the death penalty, I’m reminded of John Paul II’s visit to St. Louis in 1999. A prisoner was scheduled to be executed while JP was in Missouri. He asked for clemency for this man, that he may not be executed. The man is still in prison, serving out a life sentence. If John Paul II as the leader of our church could see sparing a convicted murderer’s life, so should I.

With regards to what we should do instead of killing them–life in prison without parole. Lock them up forever. But, like others have stated before me, we must not take away the chance for them to repent. It’s God’s job to give and take life; it’s wrong for us to put ourselves on His level.

 

[Chris_Jacobsen]

Capital punishment was abolished in Wisconsin 150 years ago.

Why are you people living the backwards states still debating it?

 

[Al_Masetti]

Proelium Frater:

I as an individual, think that the ‘civil society’ is morally bankrupt, and we are much better off taking care of ourselves.

Does anyone know where I can find a different society? This one sucks…

There really aren’t all that many countries out there to choose from.

 

[Proelium_Frater]

Al Masetti:

There really aren’t all that many countries out there to choose from.

I noticed. Maybe I can get a good deal on a piece of land from some poor third world country and then declare independance…