Against the Death Penalty?

[Lujack]

Chesterton, you just omitted the last two paragraphs of the catechism’s section on capital punishment, which read:

"If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
"Today, in fact, given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today … are very rare, if not practically non-existent

Don’t try and twist’s the catechism into saying something it doesn’t.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Chesterton, you just omitted the last two paragraphs of the catechism’s section on capital punishment, which read:

Don’t try and twist’s the catechism into saying something it doesn’t.

I wasn’t trying to twist anything.

I don’t think it changes the previous comments. The IF is still part of the equation.

The truth is that killers often continue killing even when they are behind bars.

 

[CWBetts]

I wasn’t trying to twist anything.

I don’t think it changes the previous comments. The IF is still part of the equation.

The truth is that killers often continue killing even when they are behind bars.

So your solution is to execute them as quickly as possible to ensure they have no chance at repentance?

 

[CWBetts]

That isn’t necessarily true. Inmates have access to many potential victims, not all inside the prison walls. Healthcare staff at the local hospitals are the most likely in my opinion. Health care units at prisons are basicly first aid stations. If an inmate complains of chest pains it’s a good bet he will be traveling by ambulance to the nearest hospital. Strict security is followed, but inmated have 24Hours 7 days a week to figure a way around security. Believe me, inmates can be quite clever. You wouldn’t believe some of the things that I’ve seen made into a weapon.

Court personnel are also on my list. Murderers always have appeals. They have to be transported to court. All it takes is a well hidden shank (prison lingo for knife) and someone dies.

As you can see, many people, including those along the transportation route, can be put in jeopardy no matter how tight security is.

YOu reallu do need to stop coming up with rediculous “what ifs” to justify not protecting all life.

 

[CWBetts]

I agree. Having an innocent man executed is unacceptable, but I believe there are cases where proof is beyond doubt at all. In these cases I believe capital punishment is acceptable.

In 25 years, the prison I worked at never had an escape. as a matter of fact, we only had a handful of attempts, but given time both the prison you live near and the the prison I worked at will have one.

And given an infinite amount of time and an infinite number of champanzees tyoing on typewriters they will, by random chamce, produce the Hamlet by randomly striking keys. The “given enough time” argument does not hold up under scrutiny.

 

[pete_29]

YOu reallu do need to stop coming up with rediculous “what ifs” to justify not protecting all life.

Look pal, I’ll put my 25 years experience against your living next to a prison any day. Every example I put to you has happened in the Illinois prison system. I know what I’m talking about. You don’t!

 

[pete_29]

And given an infinite amount of time and an infinite number of champanzees tyoing on typewriters they will, by random chamce, produce the Hamlet by randomly striking keys. The “given enough time” argument does not hold up under scrutiny.

andin an infinite amount of time you may learn something about corrections. maybe.

 

[CWBetts]

andin an infinite amount of time you may learn something about corrections. maybe.

So since we have an imperfecr corrections system, we should exterminate people found guilty in our imperfect courts?

 

[pete_29]

So since we have an imperfecr corrections system, we should exterminate people found guilty in our imperfect courts?

Never said that. If the death penalty were done away with tomorrow, I could live with that (no humor intended), but I can also see instances where I could find it acceptable.

 

[Lujack]

I wasn’t trying to twist anything.

I don’t think it changes the previous comments. The IF is still part of the equation.

The truth is that killers often continue killing even when they are behind bars.

But the catechism disagrees with your assessment of the situation as well. It outright states that the cases where the death penalty is acceptable are rare, at most.

 

[LutheranDK]

I blame “Prison Break” for the misconceptions

Anyway, I used to be for Death penalty. Reasons: mostly I guess financial & resource wise… The people that a sentenced to death are not measly thieves & etc. They are REALLY REALLY serious offenders that would be rotting their entire lives in prison without being released through some “good behavior” program or rehabilitation. So those people were seriously disrupting society + would not be contibuting to it back or living in it; thus allowing them to live & spend valuable resources that muchmore needy, good people actually could use seemed like such a shame to me.

Then somebody pointed out to me that the costs of all the trials & other stuff that needs to be done to sentence somebody to a death penalty + they aren’t just killed after a week a two; those fellons spend many many years in prison before the actual execution (there is a lot of time available to determine whether the person was actually guilty or not, over & over, or see if new evidence comes up; of course there are cases when the following happened much later). So by killing them, much more resources were actually spent. So now I changed my position & am against death penalty.

No offence indented, but I think that the financial argument is a horrible one - for both viewpoints.
Justice is not, or at least SHOULD NOT be, a matter of finances…

 

[pete_29]

A lot of the problem is making inmates serve out their sentences. A few years before I worked at the prison, I worked in a hardware store. Threr was a guy there who was trying to pick fights all the time and finally got fired. Acouple of years later, he beat his girlfreind to death. I think he was sentenced to 30 or 40 years. He was out in 7. About a year later, he beat his next girl friend to death. he’s was sentenced to death, but it was commuted to life. My point is if he would have had to serve his full sentence the first time, his second girlfriend would be alive today. Of course, there is no telling what he would have done when he got out after 30 or 40 years.

 

[Robertsxxx]

No offence indented, but I think that the financial argument is a horrible one - for both viewpoints.
Justice is not, or at least SHOULD NOT be, a matter of finances…

Non taken & I see your point.
However I do not claim that finances should be the main reason for the DP; just part of the rationale in cases when the individual is already going to be spending their entire life in prison.

• I got a question: what do you people think about those **religious amnesty, letting-go-early **programs?

 

[Robertsxxx]

Non taken & I see your point.
However I do not claim that finances should be the main reason for the DP; just part of the rationale in cases when the individual is already going to be spending their entire life in prison.

• I got a question: what do you peolpe think about those **religious amnesty, letting-go-early **programs?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

But the catechism disagrees with your assessment of the situation as well. It outright states that the cases where the death penalty is acceptable are rare, at most.

I agree with that.

Very few people are executed in America. I think executions are prudently carried out in our system. I think the process is too slow, however. I believe more timely executions will decrease risks and increase the deterrent value.

I’m not arguing in favor of a huge increase in executions.

I’m arguing against the abolishment of the death penalty.

 

[happilycatholic]

I think we need to first establish the reason for execution. I can think of the following three:

Justice? For who?

Punishment? For who?

Deterrance? For who?

We don’t execute a person in the U.S. except for cases of death of the victim against whom the crime is commited. Murder is also defined as a crime against society. Well, what about the simple act of taking a life for a life that was taken. At least part of society does not condone this so it is further imperfect. So NONE of these reasons is satisfied for the victim or society as a whole. So the satisfaction is perfect for only those who believe that taking a life is sometimes justified even if we did not witness the crime and we were not injured from it.

Second, what is worse? Taking the perpatrator’s life and ending the opportunity for these three things or prolonging the perpatrator’s opportunity to accomplish these?

Third, what logic tells us that a person who doesn’t value another’s life will value his own?

The death penalty is for all it’s cracked up to be, worthless. It has absolutely no outcome but the termination of life. That’s it. There is no justice. There is no punishment. There is no deterrant. Just another death. Which one of the three reasons does that accomplish?

I’d rather see my killer live day in and day out if for no other reason than to reflect on where he/she is and why. There is no way around that. That is the only thing that will guarantee the accomplishment of those three reasons.

And for those three reasons I personally endorse life imprisonment.

Oh, and I am not particularly concerned with the perpetrator’s chance to repent and obtain forgiveness. He could do that lying on the table, sitting in the chair or from the chamber. That is not the point. The future of his/her soul is between that person and God. It is not for me to be concerned with what I have no control over in this world or the next. I feel like that is a personal responsibility and the perpetrator has plenty of time for that whether facing the death penalty or life in prison.

And as for the O.P’s comment on the guards living day to day with killers…that is possibly the most absurd comment to date on this forum. Allbeit compassionate, nonetheless absurd.

HC

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The death penalty is for all it’s cracked up to be, worthless. It has absolutely no outcome but the termination of life. That’s it. There is no justice. There is no punishment. There is no deterrant. Just another death. Which one of the three reasons does that accomplish?

 

[pete_29]

I think we need to first establish the reason for execution. I can think of the following three:

Justice? For who?

Punishment? For who?

Deterrance? For who?

We don’t execute a person in the U.S. except for cases of death of the victim against whom the crime is commited. Murder is also defined as a crime against society. Well, what about the simple act of taking a life for a life that was taken. At least part of society does not condone this so it is further imperfect. So NONE of these reasons is satisfied for the victim or society as a whole. So the satisfaction is perfect for only those who believe that taking a life is sometimes justified even if we did not witness the crime and we were not injured from it.

Second, what is worse? Taking the perpatrator’s life and ending the opportunity for these three things or prolonging the perpatrator’s opportunity to accomplish these?

Third, what logic tells us that a person who doesn’t value another’s life will value his own?

The death penalty is for all it’s cracked up to be, worthless. It has absolutely no outcome but the termination of life. That’s it. There is no justice. There is no punishment. There is no deterrant. Just another death. Which one of the three reasons does that accomplish?

I’d rather see my killer live day in and day out if for no other reason than to reflect on where he/she is and why. There is no way around that. That is the only thing that will guarantee the accomplishment of those three reasons.

And for those three reasons I personally endorse life imprisonment.

Oh, and I am not particularly concerned with the perpetrator’s chance to repent and obtain forgiveness. He could do that lying on the table, sitting in the chair or from the chamber. That is not the point. The future of his/her soul is between that person and God. It is not for me to be concerned with what I have no control over in this world or the next. I feel like that is a personal responsibility and the perpetrator has plenty of time for that whether facing the death penalty or life in prison.

And as for the O.P’s comment on the guards living day to day with killers…that is possibly the most absurd comment to date on this forum. Allbeit compassionate, nonetheless absurd.

HC

Could I get some clarification on your last paragraph. Why is it absurd.

 

[happilycatholic]

Could I get some clarification on your last paragraph. Why is it absurd.

Hi Pete:

Because it would be assuming you didn’t know what you were getting yourself into as a correctional officer. Separate the compassion in his post from his insinuation.

Even now, you are going to go to work next time you are scheduled right? You willingly put your life on the line to protect us from those that would certainly harm us. You don’t do that blindly right?

I truly fear for you in your daily walk, but I am confident in the fact that you of all people know full well the place you are entering every day you enter there.

To agree with him would minimalize respect for your job, not empathize with it.

And THANK YOU!

 

[happilycatholic]

Could I get some clarification on your last paragraph. Why is it absurd.

Pete, I have a question that you may be able answer better than anyone else.

How many currently facing the death penalty are reflecting on the crime they committed in lieu of the actual punishment?

My point here is that the perpatrator is probably more afraid of death than he/she is remorseful of the crime committed. What does that gain for the victim or the survivors or society?

Okay, that’s two questions. Sorry.