Against the US-Afghanistan & US-Iraq Wars

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I had a huge problem with the invasion of Iraq (as did then Pope, John Paul II).
Senator Clinton didn’t seem to have a problem with it, and now she is hoping to become President. Do you think that President Obama could be persuaded to campaign for a seat in the US Senate, where he could be an elder statesman who will influence other senators to vote against unnecessary wars?
With regards to Afghanistan, my country was attacked by people that were based there. We didn’t really have much of a choice. And yes, soldiers sinned. Everyone sins. I don’t see your point. Were there things that could have be handled better? Absolutely. But you can’t blame the actions of a few on an entire group of people.
Was the military the right instrument to use in Afghanistan?

Of course, CIA operations are more time-consuming than military operations, and there might have been a delay of at least a few years between September 11, 2001 and a change of government in Afghanistan if the US military hadn’t been involved.

So, was the speedy change of government in Afghanistan worth the price paid in human life?

Maybe, if you are interested, you could post a reply in another thread …
50.22.108.14/showthread.php?t=1009451
 
If we want to make progress in our security, we should react without anger and without destruction. We must sometimes accept the violence sometimes done to us – the violence of terrorists plane-crashing into our country and gunning us down – with unrequited peace. We must turn the other cheek.
Are you in any way related to Loretta Lynch?

Peace, Mark
 
If we want to make progress in our security, we should react without anger and without destruction. ***We must sometimes accept the violence sometimes done to us – the violence of terrorists plane-crashing into our country and gunning us down – with unrequited peace. We must turn the other cheek. ***
Are you in any way related to Loretta Lynch?

Peace, Mark
 
Yes, you would go to jail…so what, better to be in an earthly jail than to disobey Gods law and have some level of cooperation with evil or even indirectly supporting an unjust war, plus they would not be getting the money you would have paid them (if enough people did this, it would effect their abilities to wage war).

Jesus even warned us many people would be arrested, imprisoned, tortured, killed due to his name, these kinds of things are the reason why they are arrested, they chose to put Gods law above mans…
Do you take what Jesus said on this seriously and literally and believe that it is better to be imprisoned and tortured instead of paying your taxes?
For example, Jesus also said:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:26
Do you hate your father and mother?
Or:
“And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.”
Matthew 18:9
Suppose you or a student went to an off-color play performed at a Catholic college as part of her English class assignment. Should you or she then gouge out her eye and throw it away because she saw something indecent there which could cause her to stumble?
 
Isn’t this well too late?

And I reject the premise that all citizens sinned in the country’s wars. We are not a democracy; we are a federal republic; which means that between elections, those chosen to do so rule for us. Average citizens do not sin even in an unjust or mistaken war because they possess no power to stop it.

ICXC NIKA
And yet on the flip side, Catholics need to apparently en masse apologize to the LGBT community for mistreatment by someone, somewhere, at some point.
 
I agree, I don’t think it is necessarily a sin to be a soldier. After all, confirmed Catholics were once known as “soldiers for Christ.” But even to become and to be a member in the American armed services, I don’t think that is necessarily a sin.

I also don’t think it’s necessarily a sin to kill a person. “Thou shalt not murder” is how I think the 5th commandment puts it, emphasis mine.

I think it’s possible to live a holy life while serving as a soldier, with the killing that that may imply, in the service of a nation or power that is waging an unjust war. This is what a friend explained to me.

Pearl Harbor did not happen on 9/11. Pearl Harbor preceded the American involvement in WWII – and four years after Pearl Harbor, the enemy formally surrendered! Did we see any formal surrender from Al Qaeda or the Taliban after four years of war in Afghanistan? No. We were and we are dealing with two different enemies.
One recalls this from the New Testament:

" And the centurion making answer, said: Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst enter under my roof: but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed. 9For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers; and I say to this, Go, and he goeth, and to another, Come, and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel."

We say approximately the same thing right before Communion in every Mass, and it was uttered by a Roman army officer. “Lord I am not worthy that thou should enter under my roof…” And Jesus remarked that He had not found so great a faith in all of Israel.

Jesus did not tell the Centurion to stop being a soldier, and the Roman army was renowned for its brutality. When asked what they, as soldiers, should do, Jesus said:

“And persons engaged in military service also asked him saying, And we, what should we do? And he said to them, Oppress no one, nor accuse falsely, and be satisfied with your pay.”

As Catholics, we can be pacifist as individuals if we want. But we have no right at all to tell others they must be pacifists too. The Church doesn’t teach that, because Jesus didn’t.

Personally, as regards the Iraq and Af/Pak wars, I take the opposite view to that of some. In my view, we had no business doing anything other than punishing the Taliban and then leaving, telling them we would come back and do worse if they harmed our people again. Why? Because you can’t build a nation out of utterly disparate people who despise each other and have one foot in the 8th century A.D. and the other in the 8th Century B.C.

Iraq, on the other hand, was far more sophisticated, with a literate people and economic infrastructure. It also had a leader who killed about a million people and, like Assad probably will be, would probably have been deposed violently sooner or later anyway.

And Al Quaeda did give up in Iraq. Osama Bin Ladin himself said so, and told his fighters to stand down because our forces were too strong. Its offshoot, ISIS, moved its operations to Syria, where we weren’t, and where a ruler just like Saddam Hussein governed. It wasn’t going into Iraq that was the moral failing, it was leaving when we did.
 
And Al Quaeda did give up in Iraq. Osama Bin Ladin himself said so, and told his fighters to stand down because our forces were too strong. Its offshoot, ISIS, moved its operations to Syria, where we weren’t, and where a ruler just like Saddam Hussein governed. It wasn’t going into Iraq that was the moral failing, it was leaving when we did.
Interesting history (or spin) on ISIS last night on PBS. Dick Cheney was determined to convince us that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was the link between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda to justify invasion of Iraq. That link did not exist and we decimated the Ba’ath party and disenfranchised the the Sunni soldiers. When we withdrew Zarqaw took advantage of the situation. We** had** to return and begin to get things under control. Then Obama got us out again and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi took it form there. Main goal: continue to seize land and take over the entire Earth until its “Blessed flag…covers all eastern and western extents of the Earth, filling the world with the truth and justice of Islam and putting an end to the falsehood and tyranny of jahiliyyah [state of ignorance], even if American and its coalition despise such.”

pbs.org/video/2365356572/

With such a goal we cannot turn the other cheek unless we are willing to accept martyrdom. That is a personal choice we can each make but we cannot make it for others. ISIS is now a global threat. There is no longer diplomatic alternative.
 
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