Against your "free" will

[Robert_Sock]

Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die…
– Ethics of the Fathers 4:22

How do the above events go against free will? Can we really have free will with the above events occurring against your will? We are trapped in this miserable and corrupt world!

 

[tonyrey]

You don’t have a will before you are formed because you don’t exist!

Free will is also confused with desire. It means the power to choose between **possible **alternatives.

 

[Theophorus]

Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die…
– Ethics of the Fathers 4:22

How do the above events go against free will? Can we really have free will with the above events occurring against your will? We are trapped in this miserable and corrupt world!

You can only freely choose, and thus have free will, in situations where you have some choice in the matter, that is where actions can be voluntary. We have no power over those four things you mentioned and as such we consider them to be involuntary actions and so we have no free will nor choice in those area’s.

 

[Shlomo]

That is exactly why we need to be born again - this time it’s up to you…

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

We could assume that the opportunity to be born is generally a good thing. However, there is at least one person for whom birth was not in his best interest:

woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed. It were better for him, if that man had not been born.

 

[BobCatholic]

Our free will is limited.

Did we have any free will to choose to leave the Garden of Eden? No.

But we are punished for Adam and Eve’s sin. They had the free will to choose and we don’t. They did the evil and we get punished for them.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Our free will is limited.

Did we have any free will to choose to leave the Garden of Eden? No.

But we are punished for Adam and Eve’s sin. They had the free will to choose and we don’t. They did the evil and we get punished for them.

None of us chose our genetic makeup. It was given to us. Whether we see it as a punishment or a gift is our choice–that is our free will. Without God we would not exist. I hope that in the times of my greatest suffering I will be able to remember that and be ever-thankful.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You can only freely choose, and thus have free will, in situations where you have some choice in the matter, that is where actions can be voluntary. We have no power over those four things you mentioned and as such we consider them to be involuntary actions and so we have no free will nor choice in those area’s.

Thanks!

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

None of us chose our genetic makeup. It was given to us. Whether we see it as a punishment or a gift is our choice–that is our free will. Without God we would not exist. I hope that in the times of my greatest suffering I will be able to remember that and be ever-thankful.

But genetics are morally neutral. Original sin is not. We are guilty (or at least were guilty) of a sin committed without our consent.

 

[davidv]

But genetics are morally neutral. Original sin is not. We are guilty (or at least were guilty) of a sin committed without our consent.

Did you commit the Original Sin? No. Therefore you cannot be guilty of it. Original sin is not your personal sin. You cannot be guilty of something you did not do. However, you are not protected from the effects of original sin anymore than you are protected from the effects of someone elses personal sin (murder, slander, etc.).

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Did you commit the Original Sin? No. Therefore you cannot be guilty of it. Original sin is not your personal sin. You cannot be guilty of something you did not do. However, you are not protected from the effects of original sin anymore than you are protected from the effects of someone elses personal sin (murder, slander, etc.).

But the effect in this case is entirely decided by God. In other words because Adam sinned, God decided to withhold from us the grace we would otherwise have recieved. Therefore we are being held accountable by God for the sin of Adam. Are you saying that we are worthy of this punishment even though we are not guilty?

 

[davidv]

But the effect in this case is entirely decided by God.

No it wasn’t decided by God, it was decided by Adam and Eve.

In other words because Adam sinned, God decided to withhold from us the grace we would otherwise have recieved.

No. The consequence were established ahead of time and were made know.

Therefore we are being held accountable by God for the sin of Adam. Are you saying that we are worthy of this punishment even though we are not guilty?

You can call it punishment, but it is not the punishment of guilt, it is the punishment of the consequences of another’s sin.

God’s grace is freely available to those willing to humble themselves and repent of their sins.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

No it wasn’t decided by God, it was decided by Adam and Eve.

The consequences were entirely decided by God. It is silly to say otherwise.

No. The consequence were established ahead of time and were made know.

It is irrelevant whether or not Adam and Eve understood the consequences. The consequences were entirely set by God.

You can call it punishment, but it is not the punishment of guilt, it is the punishment of the consequences of another’s sin.

Regardless of what we call it, we are suffering a consequence due to an action in which we had no say.

God’s grace is freely available to those willing to humble themselves and repent of their sins.

But in the case of original sin, God is witholding grace he was planning on giving us even though we have not personally sinned.

 

[davidv]

The consequences were entirely decided by God. It is silly to say otherwise.

Please demonstrate this.

It is irrelevant whether or not Adam and Eve understood the consequences. The consequences were entirely set by God.

Why is it irrelevant. Adam and Eve were free to avoid the consequences.

Regardless of what we call it, we are suffering a consequence due to an action in which we had no say.

Sometimes distinctions make a difference.

But in the case of original sin, God is witholding grace he was planning on giving us even though we have not personally sinned.

All grace is not withheld, the grace needed to repent is not withheld.

 

[Catholic80]

Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die…
– Ethics of the Fathers 4:22

How do the above events go against free will? Can we really have free will with the above events occurring against your will? We are trapped in this miserable and corrupt world!

That’s not what free-will means… that nothing will happen if you don’t like it. Free will isn’t “whatever I want happens” Free will is the ability to desire and choose, even if that choice doesn’t happen according to our desire.

A child wants to eat candy for dinner - that’s his free will to request what he desires.
His mother tells him, no. - it goes against what he desires.
He then either obeys or throws a fit - his free will is employed once again to choose in his given circumstances.

 

[irishOntarian]

Free will is the choice between certain alternatives, not the ability to control everything in our lives.

 

[BobCatholic]

None of us chose our genetic makeup. It was given to us. Whether we see it as a punishment or a gift is our choice–that is our free will. Without God we would not exist. I hope that in the times of my greatest suffering I will be able to remember that and be ever-thankful.

I’m not talking about our genetic makeup. I’m talking about our being punished for the sins of Adam and Eve. This is unjust.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Please demonstrate this.

Certainly. Who decided what the consequences of original sin were? Was it Adam or Eve? No, that is silly. Was it the Devil? No it was not, he had nothing to do with setting the consequences, only the commission of the sin. Was it God? Yes, he created the fruit, the people, and, obviously, the rules governing them. God made the rules, God was the legislator and executor of the consequences.

Why is it irrelevant. Adam and Eve were free to avoid the consequences.

Because we are not free to avoid the consequences.

All grace is not withheld, the grace needed to repent is not withheld.

But we exist for a time without graces we would otherwise have had. Moreover, people who are involuntarily ignorant of this can have no hope of recovering the lost graces.

 

[davidv]

Certainly. Who decided what the consequences of original sin were? Was it Adam or Eve? No, that is silly. Was it the Devil? No it was not, he had nothing to do with setting the consequences, only the commission of the sin. Was it God? Yes, he created the fruit, the people, and, obviously, the rules governing them. God made the rules, God was the legislator and executor of the consequences.

Thank you for laying this out clearly. Why did you leave out the part that A&E played in bringing to fruition said consequences? Without their disobedience the consequences would not have occurred.

Because we are not free to avoid the consequences.

It just occurred to me that we have left out of the discussion so far, the key consequence of original sin which was death. So, eventhough we cannot avoid consequence of the tendency to sin, we can avoid death (and I believe in this context it is spiritual death). Jesus’ suffering, death and resurrection allows us to avoid this consequence.

But we exist for a time without graces we would otherwise have had.

True. However, pardon the pun, this is not a death sentence.

Moreover, people who are involuntarily ignorant of this can have no hope of recovering the lost graces.

Hope is alway available to those who have faith. Those graces lost are not the only graces available.

 

[BobCatholic]

It just occurred to me that we have left out of the discussion so far, the key consequence of original sin which was death

That’s not the only consequence.

We are kicked out of the Garden of Eden and banned from there FOREVER.

We suffer when Adam and Even didn’t until they were banned.

God punishes us temporally for their sins. This is not just.