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dolphinlove
Guest
Bel…
Your signature…
There is no got but Gad, and Jesus is His Son.
Your signature…
There is no got but Gad, and Jesus is His Son.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
Argh… guess I cannot spell… how did I do that one? Must have been in a rush…Bel…
Your signature…
There is no got but Gad, and Jesus is His Son.
Thanks for pointing it out.
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dolphinlove
Guest
thats ok, it just confused me, thought it might have been in a different language or something…Argh… guess I cannot spell… how did I do that one? Must have been in a rush…
Thanks for pointing it out.
Nothing to be embarrassed about, we are only human after all…
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BelFarfalla
Guest
I thought about claiming some other language … 'cause that was really really stupid.
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dolphinlove
Guest
lol you should have… we would have been none the wiser…
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strngrnrth
Guest
What can westerners do to stop such slavery? What can a person with a modest income do about it? It’s intolerable not to be able to make a difference. If we learned that one-third of male children in poor countries were being farmed for organs, for example, we would somehow put a stop to it, wouldn’t we? My country at least would wage actual war as long as necessary to make a sharp drop in the number of children subjected to such a nightmare. Child sex/breeding/domestic servitude (again, I won’t call it “marriage”) damages the child as much as organ piracy, I believe. But so far my gov. seems to know about this and hasn’t made a move against it, so it’s up to the individuals who care. I don’t have a lot of money to send any organization. Maybe someone will have a fundraiser to do something. What can you tell me?
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BelFarfalla
Guest
I assume you are in the USA right? Here’s the problem. If we go to war over this, most other countries in the world are going to be against us. Most people in the world believe that each country needs to handle its own problems and that no one else has the right to interfere. Plus, if we go to war we may not solve the problem but create a much larger one. One of the major characteristics of war is that it is unpredictable. We could end up killing more innocents then we save, we could create more orphans or victims of starvation or refugee camps… all of whom are prime targets for slavery.
I lived in Ethiopia as a kid. A man who lived down the street from us was a slave trader. He seemed to deal mostly in children. It seemed that he was able to get children easily from the tribes that were in severe famines. When people are literally starving to death, they will give up their children or sell them to slavers because at least that way the kids have a chance to live. Or some sell their kids to get money to keep themselves alive. After all if they survive the famine they can always make more kids. Or many children are left orphans when they are the only surviving members of their family.
There is no shortage in this world living in abject poverty that makes them prime targets of slavers. The best way to fight slavery I think it through education and by putting pressure on countries to go after the slavers. There are an estimated 24 million slaves in the world today… that is more then have ever been salves at any one time in history. The culprits are 3rd world countries making babies at a rate that their economies cannot support. These factors need to be handled as well as going after the slavers.
I know that the Catholic Church is very active in fighting slavery on all fronts. They are very active here in the USA fighting the slavery that exists here today…. Believe it or not about 14,000 salves are smuggled into the USA every year… with about 50,000 being here at any one time. They are mostly women and children used in the sex slave industry and the clothing/textile industries. There are some in the agriculture industry too. If I were to give directly to an organization fighting slavery, I’d find a catholic charity that was dealing with it as they do wonders. You might not feel comfortable about that since you are not a Catholic. If you search the web for things related to slavery I’m sure that you would find or charity that is doing something about this that you feel comfortable with.
renewamerica.us/columns/kralis/060804
therecord.com/links/links_060607164354.html
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=7073
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strngrnrth
Guest
Thank you. I’ll make time to find out more about this. i hadn’t thought much about the real effect of war. here, we tend to feel that a war made our country, we’re glad we have it, thus a war can be a good thing. Then we’re also mostly glad about the Civil War and the part we played in “The Big War”, WWII. It’s hard to remember how devastating it must be on the battlegrounds.
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Ma.Eugenia
Guest
Hi!
I don’t think that is entirely true for the Philippines. It applies only to Muslims in our country.
We have two sets of laws that apply to marriage. One for Muslims (who are in the minority)…the other law is for everyone else.
1) For Muslims:
Marriage Age: minimum marriage age 15 years for males and puberty for females (female is presumed to have attained puberty at 15 years); Shari a District Court may authorise marriage of female **between 12 and 15 **years if she has attained puberty, upon petition of her wali; khiyar al-bulugh: marriage of minors to be defined as betrothal and may be annulled by either party within 4 years of attaining puberty if marriage was not voluntarily consummated and neither father nor paternal grandfather served as wali; penalty of imprisonment or fines or both for illegal solemnisation of marriage
See:
law.emory.edu/IFL/legal/philippines.htm
2) For everyone else (majority of Filipinos) in my country we have the Family Code which states:
*Those contracted by any party **below eighteen years of age **even with the consent of parents or guardians are Void and Voidable Marriages
*Art. 14. In case either or both of the contracting parties, not having been emancipated by a previous marriage, are between the ages of eighteen and twenty-one, they shall, in addition to the requirements of the preceding articles, exhibit to the local civil registrar, the consent to their marriage of their father, mother, surviving parent or guardian, or persons having legal charge of them, in the order mentioned…
*Art. 15. Any contracting party between the age of twenty-one and twenty-five shall be obliged to ask their parents or guardian for advice upon the intended marriage. If they do not obtain such advice, or if it be unfavorable, the marriage license shall not be issued till after three months following the completion of the publication of the application therefor.
See:
filipinawives.com/FamilyCodePhilippines.htm
As you can see, in my country, majority are not legally allowed to marry early.
Just for your information.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
I agree that sometimes war can be a good thing…. At times it is necessary. Our war for independence was, thank goodness, a relatively bloodless, especially by today’s standards. It was an old fashion war fought by ‘gentlemen’ where armies lined up in fields and fought. There was very little killing of the civilian population. This form of war was pretty much unique to Europeans.
The death tolls and destruction in wars today is much higher as things like urban warfare, new weapons, etc end up hurting more civilians. Look at how radical Islam is choosing to engage us. They are picking the ‘battle field’. Is the urban areas. We will probably never see battles between armies in open fields whit them. It’s called asymmetrical warfare. They will lose if they engage us in open battle. So instead they engage in the cities, house to house.
People sometimes try to equate George Washington with today’s terrorists. What a joke. George Washington never targeted civilians blowing up women and children. He was fighting an army and not looking for maximum carnage to terrorize people.
Of course in the past there were other types of war, more like what is going on in Dafur these days where the idea is basically genocide and rape, plunder and pillage.
I agree that was a necessary war, but it also had a very high death toll and caused such distruction on the South that they are only now truly recovering from it.
By the time the US entered WWII the war had been going for a several years. It had already devastated most of Europe. In the European theater entered it to help liberate our European relatives from Hitler. In Japan we responded to a brutal country that had attacked us and was raping, pillaging and plundering its way across a continent. We did not start WWII, we helped end it.
I have the same thoughts you do about “why don’t we just do in already and stop this nonsense. I am appalled that the world stands by and lets this happen. Look at Dafur. It’s a prime example. The Muslims there are trying to totally exterminate an entire population. And what help has the world given to the victims … NOTHING really. Why hasn’t the world gone into North Korea and stopped the horrible things that are going on there??? The reason is that the world really does not care.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
An interesting post.Hi!
I don’t think that is entirely true for the Philippines. It applies only to Muslims in our country.
We have two sets of laws that apply to marriage. One for Muslims (who are in the minority)…the other law is for everyone else.
1) For Muslims:
Marriage Age: minimum marriage age 15 years for males and puberty for females (female is presumed to have attained puberty at 15 years); Shari a District Court may authorise marriage of female **between 12 and 15 **years if she has attained puberty, upon petition of her wali; khiyar al-bulugh: marriage of minors to be defined as betrothal and may be annulled by either party within 4 years of attaining puberty if marriage was not voluntarily consummated and neither father nor paternal grandfather served as wali; penalty of imprisonment or fines or both for illegal solemnisation of marriage
See:
law.emory.edu/IFL/legal/philippines.htm
**2) For everyone else (majority of Filipinos) in my country we have the Family Code **which states:
*Those contracted by any party **below eighteen years of age **even with the consent of parents or guardians are Void and Voidable Marriages
*Art. 14. In case either or both of the contracting parties, not having been emancipated by a previous marriage, are between the ages of eighteen and twenty-one, they shall, in addition to the requirements of the preceding articles, exhibit to the local civil registrar, the consent to their marriage of their father, mother, surviving parent or guardian, or persons having legal charge of them, in the order mentioned…
*Art. 15. Any contracting party between the age of twenty-one and twenty-five shall be obliged to ask their parents or guardian for advice upon the intended marriage. If they do not obtain such advice, or if it be unfavorable, the marriage license shall not be issued till after three months following the completion of the publication of the application therefor.
See:
filipinawives.com/FamilyCodePhilippines.htm
As you can see, in my country, majority are not legally allowed to marry early.
Just for your information.
It’s too bad that your country has allowed the Muslims to institute such laws. Do they live under Shari’ah now for all things? Or just for family law? This is one of the first steps of Islam… to set up a system of aparthied. I hope we never allow this in the USA… one law for all people.
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Kadaveri
Guest
It’s already like that in the USA really, it just isn’t officially recognised. Muslims do follow their own family law there.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Anyone can follow their own ‘unofficial laws’ but if they contravene American official laws they might find themselves sharing a cell with a hairy brute with hideous tattoos and horrible breath and who likes to snuggle up on cold nights.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
That is the same way it is for all religions in the USA. Everyone is free to practice their religion, even in the area of how they run their family, as long as it does not conflict with the law. This applies to all religions, not just Islam.
They can follow Shari’ah family law only when it does not conflict with local Federal, State and local laws.
For example Shari’ah allows a man to beat his wife. A Muslim in the USA is under the same laws as anyone else. In the USA a Muslim woman can bring charges against her husband if he even seriously threatens to hit her.
Muslims in the USA cannot practice polygamy as it is illegal here.
Muslim women in the USA have exactly the same rights in family courts as their husbands do. They can file for divorce, get alimony and child support according to the laws of their state. In community property states they have the right to 50% of the family assets.
Muslim women in the USA have the right to go outside of their home without getting the permission of their husband or other male family members. They can travel without escort all they want. IF a husband, father, etc try to keep a woman in the house or prevent her from traveling the woman can press false imprisonment criminal charges against the man.
Muslim women in the USA are not forced by law to wear hijab, abaya, etc. The ones who do, do so out of choice.
There is no place in the USA where Islamic Shari’ah law as been put in place legally so that the Muslims are living under separate legally passed laws.
When Muslim is married in the USA, they still have to file the same legal papers as anyone else. IF they don’t then the marriage is not recognized by law. And when they marry, all US laws apply to that couple… the US laws are not superseded by Islamic law.
So no it is not already like that in the USA. Muslims do not live under different laws then non-Muslims.
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Kadaveri
Guest
Only theoretically.
For instance some Muslims do practice polygamy, what they do is get more than one marriage carried out by a Mufti according to Islamic law, and write out the wills according to Islamic law and file it to an American court so that it’s legally binding. If asked the man just says one of his wives is his “girlfriend” not a wife, the authorities will probably know she’s really a wife but they don’t intervene since they’re not doing any harm.
It’s similar when Muslims get married, they make their marriage contracts according to Islamic law and file it through the American court system so it’s legally binding. So when a Muslim couple divorce the estate is split according to Islamic law.
The same story for inheritance laws.
For instance some Muslims do practice polygamy, what they do is get more than one marriage carried out by a Mufti according to Islamic law, and write out the wills according to Islamic law and file it to an American court so that it’s legally binding. If asked the man just says one of his wives is his “girlfriend” not a wife, the authorities will probably know she’s really a wife but they don’t intervene since they’re not doing any harm.
It’s similar when Muslims get married, they make their marriage contracts according to Islamic law and file it through the American court system so it’s legally binding. So when a Muslim couple divorce the estate is split according to Islamic law.
The same story for inheritance laws.
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Ma.Eugenia
Guest
Hi BelFarfalla!
The law that applies to Muslims is
Presidential Decree 1083 otherwise known as :
A DECREE TO ORDAIN AND PROMULGATE A CODE RECOGNIZING THE SYSTEM OF FILIPINO MUSLIM LAWS, CODIFYING MUSLIM PERSONAL LAWS, AND PROVIDING FOR ITS ADMINISTRATION AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES.
.
You can see the full text of the law here:
chanrobles.com/presidentialdecreeno1083.htm
From what I read from this it is basically a Family Code for Muslims. I think the Shari’a law that is being applied here is a watered-down version of what’s found in other more traditional Muslim countries.
Shari’a law applies only to Muslims. If a case arises between Muslim and non-Muslim, Civil law will apply.
I believe the Shari’a law was allowed to help with the peace process with the Muslims, especially in Mindanao (southern part of the Philippines) where most Muslims live. There used to be a lot of conflict there, but since its implementation (save for the Abu Sayyaf bandits problem), it has become a better place now that Muslims have their own laws and jurisdiction, with the creation of the Autonomous Region of Muslim Mindanao (ARMM).
I have a Muslim classmate who once told me that Muslims are discriminated in my country.
I told him, “I beg to differ. I feel that you are being given **special treatment **because only Muslims are allowed to have your own law in this country while eveybody has to live under the general Civil Code.”
I really don’t know why he seems to have this “persecution complex” when even our laws were revised to accommodate with their wish to have their own law for Muslims. Can’t they see that even the Catholic majority and those from other religions were not given the same privelege they were given?
Anyway, having 2 laws in one land was the best solution for my country because of the unique situation here and it has helped a lot to push forward the peace process everyone dearly wanted to have.
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Scarecrow
Guest
this topic is old and really not an issue if you consider that we live in two different cultures. marraige and sex are more than not viewed as two seperate acts. In the west we think that sex happens on the night of the wedding. it didnt happen back then. Heck in pakistan and pakistanis in the west even practice this, they marry and still live with their parents, never having sex until a much later date when the couple is ready.
the islamic apologetics on this issue is acceptable.
the islamic apologetics on this issue is acceptable.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
There are several problems with your explanation:
- Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6. He was probably homeless at the time.
- He went to Medina and built a house with an adjoining mosque and went to fetch her at her father’s house. She was 9 and he was 54.
- The Islamic historical sources say that he had sexual intercourse on the day he fetched her - the sexual act occurred in her father’s house. She was 9 and he was 53.
- When she began to live in his house - after he had had sexual intercourse with her in her father’s house - she was described as a young girl below the age of puberty.
- Three or four later, she still claimed to be a young girl - meaning she was below the age of puberty. She was 12/13 and he was 56/57.
thanks,
Rodrigo
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Scarecrow
Guest
rodrigo.
your statement is not true.
Cite your source. Because all of the islamic documents I have seen are contrary to what you stated here.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
I think you have fallen for the Aisha was not nine years old polemics. Those are false.
However, to entertain you I will list the SAHIH hadiths to support my case.
Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 163:
Narrated ‘Aisha:
The Prophet was screening me with his Rida’ (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. So you may deduce from this event how a little girl (who has not reached the age of puberty) who is eager to enjoy amusement should be treated in this respect.
Note: his incident occurred when she had gone to live in his house.
Buraira said, ‘No, by Allah Who has sent you with the Truth, I have never seen in her (i.e. Aisha) anything faulty except that she is a girl of immature age, who sometimes sleeps and leaves the dough for the goats to eat.’
This happened after the unprovoked surprise attack on the Bani Mustaliq - around 3 or 4 AH when Aisha was 12 or 13 years old.
However, to entertain you I will list the SAHIH hadiths to support my case.
- Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6. He was probably homeless at the time.
- He went to Medina and built a house with an adjoining mosque and went to fetch her at her father’s house. She was 9 and he was 54.
- The Islamic historical sources say that he had sexual intercourse on the day he fetched her - the sexual act occurred in her father’s house. She was 9 and he was 53.
- When she began to live in his house - after he had had sexual intercourse with her in her father’s house - she was described as a young girl below the age of puberty.
Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 163:
Narrated ‘Aisha:
The Prophet was screening me with his Rida’ (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. So you may deduce from this event how a little girl (who has not reached the age of puberty) who is eager to enjoy amusement should be treated in this respect.
Note: his incident occurred when she had gone to live in his house.
- Three or four later, she still claimed to be a young girl - meaning she was below the age of puberty. She was 12/13 and he was 56/57.
Buraira said, ‘No, by Allah Who has sent you with the Truth, I have never seen in her (i.e. Aisha) anything faulty except that she is a girl of immature age, who sometimes sleeps and leaves the dough for the goats to eat.’
This happened after the unprovoked surprise attack on the Bani Mustaliq - around 3 or 4 AH when Aisha was 12 or 13 years old.
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