Age of Aisha at time of marriage

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Now it’s over to you. Please show your evidence. I bet you are going to show the ‘Aisha was not nine’ polemics, right?
 
your leaps in conclusion mislead you.

And Tabari is not a Shahih hadith and is not a reliable source.

sorry to disappoint.

Its like saying the Gospel of Barnabas is an accurate representation of the Gospel in the bible.
 
Two can play that game, scarecrow. Now, I have to ask you to provide SAHIH hadiths to back up your claim.

I only provided ONE Tabari hadith - the rest were Bukhari sahihs. Even if you took out the Tabari hadith - you’d still see:
  1. She was NINE years old when he had sexual relations with her.
  2. She was a young girl of immature age 3 to 4 years after that event.
==> She was a pre-pubescent little 9 year old girl when 53 year old Muhammad had sex with her.

Now, please provided your SAHIH hadiths to back up your claim. I will remind you that this is what you wrote:
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scarecrow:
Because all of the islamic documents I have seen are contrary to what you stated here.
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Thank you,

Rodrigo
 
now dont play dumb.

You cant prove a negative. even our courts of law recognize that.

the burden of proof is on you. and I just showed that you are willing to use da’if hadith to lie on the Muslims.

It does your religion no justice to lie about another religion just to justify yourself and show the glories of the catholic faith.
 
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scarecrow:
now dont play dumb.

You cant prove a negative. even our courts of law recognize that.

the burden of proof is on you. and I just showed that you are willing to use da’if hadith to lie on the Muslims.

It does your religion no justice to lie about another religion just to justify yourself and show the glories of the catholic faith.
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Who’s asking you to prove a negative? I’m only asking you to prove what you claimed to have.

These are YOUR words, not mine.
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scarecrow:
Because all of the islamic documents I have seen are contrary to what you stated here.
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What are these documents? It is only fair you produce these documents since I produced mine.

The case has been proven using Islamic sources already. It is worthless for you to say that the burden of proof is on me when I have already proven my case with the following:
  1. The sahih bukhari hadith say that Muhammad had sex with her when she was nine years old.
  2. Other Bukhari sahih hadiths say she was a little girl below the age of puberty, and of immature age. - after this event.
We can date the events of these hadiths - the ethiopians in the mosque occurred after she was brought back to Muhammad’s house. The Buraira quote was after the raid on the B. Mustaliq - thus dating it to 3 or 4 AH.

Now, let’s see what documents you claim to have. I want to see if they are SAHIH or not.

Some uncharitable person might think you are merely making unsubstantiated claims.

Over to you. Please provide those documents.

Rodrigo
 
again. your information is faulty and based on a DAIF (untrustworthy) hadith.

ask the muslims and their scholars.

your argument is invalid and bigotted… has as much credibility as Jesus being a homosexual.

give it up.

and you did ask me to prove a negative.
 
Who are you kidding?

The Bukhari hadiths are SAHIH.

IGNORE THE TABARI HADITH - which you can’t even prove is da’if. I won’t accept your word that it is because you’ve proven unable to substantiate your claims.

Now, Bukhari SAHIH hadiths say:
  1. Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9 year old.
  2. Aisha was pre-pubertal after he had sex with her.
case closed.
 
Tabari is Daif. Ask any knowledgable Islmaic scholar. absent that, you have no proof of aisha age.

–
 
scarecrow,
I think you’re a Muslim boy who’s not here to debate but to fool people with your unsubstantiated claims.

Which part of IGNORE Tabari did you not understand?

Look at the Bukhari SAHIH hadiths - they prove Muhammad had sexual intercourse with a nine year old girl below the age of puberty.

We don’t need Tabari to prove this - all we need is Bukhari.

NOW WHERE ARE THE DOCUMENTS YOU CLAIMED TO HAVE READ THAT WILL CONTRADICT BUKHARI?

PS: thanks for putting the Aisha thread right back up the top of the list.
 
Rodrigo_Bivar said:
There are several problems with your explanation:
  1. Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6. He was probably homeless at the time.
  2. He went to Medina and built a house with an adjoining mosque and went to fetch her at her father’s house. She was 9 and he was 54.
  3. The Islamic historical sources say that he had sexual intercourse on the day he fetched her - the sexual act occurred in her father’s house. She was 9 and he was 53.
  4. When she began to live in his house - after he had had sexual intercourse with her in her father’s house - she was described as a young girl below the age of puberty.
Thus, when she lived with him she was a pre-pubertal girl who already had sexual intercouse with him in her father’s house.
  1. Three or four later, she still claimed to be a young girl - meaning she was below the age of puberty. She was 12/13 and he was 56/57.
Now that you know all this - would you like to revise your assessment of the acceptability of the Islamic apologetics?

thanks,
Rodrigo
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Of course, you are also forgetting the numerous ahadith that point to 'A’isha either playing with dolls or with young friends while she was married. That’s hardly befitting of a mature woman.

In any case, you are wasting your time with these guys. To my utter misfortune I spent roughly five years as a muslim, and I can tell you first hand that the capacity these guys have for complete denial is utterly astounding.
 
Scarecrow said:
Tabari is Daif. Ask any knowledgable Islmaic scholar. absent that, you have no proof of aisha age.

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You’re full of it. Tabari’s Tarikh al-Rusul wa al-Muluk took nearly four decades to complete and the author himself was notorious for applying the methods of the muhaddithun to sirah, something hitherto unknown to the students of Ilm ar-Rijal

Furthermore, 99% of a the pre-eminent ancient scholars of Islam accepted Bukhari’s narrations as authentinc. This list includes (but is not limited to) Taqi ud-Din Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya, Ibn Qayyim, Imam Malik ibn Anas, Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal, Imam Abu Hanifa, At-Tabari, al-Maqrizi, and at least two dozen others I can name off the top of my head.

Here’s a direct quote from Ibn Qayyim’s Zad ul Ma’ad
Aishah Bint Abu Bakr was the beloved wife of the prophet. The angel showed Aishah to the prophet while she was wrapped in a piece of silk cloth, before he married her, and said to him “this is your wife”. The prophet married Aishah during the Lunar month of Shawwal, when she was six, and consummated the marriage in the first year after the Hijrah, in the month of Shawwal, when she was 9"
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Ibn Qayyim is referencing the following hadith : Bukhari 3606 and 4738, Muslim 4468 and 2548

Tabari and Ibn Qayyim are authorities of the highest order when it comes to muslim history. They devoted their entire lives (literally, in the case of Tabari) to their works and to claim one or the other is weak because you dislike the perversions he presents is to do them a disservice.
 
IGNORE Tabari, scarecrow, we can see Aisha was nine from Sahih Bukhari and Muslim.

Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234

Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236.

Narrated Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64

Narrated Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)’ Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65

Narrated Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
 
Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him. Sahih Muslim Book 8, Number 3309

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. Sahih Muslim Book 8, Number 3310

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim Book 8 Number 3311

These are all SAHIH hadiths - they are not da’if.
 
It is unfortunate that some people have no clue about what constitutes a logical and rational argument, and just proudly display their ignorance in a public forum :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ….….

Though in this case, it’d not surprise me at all if this Scarecrow guy was in reality a muslim with a PhD in taquiya science 😃 :mad: …
Scarecrow said:
again. your information is faulty and based on a DAIF (untrustworthy) hadith.

ask the muslims and their scholars.

your argument is invalid and bigotted… has as much credibility as Jesus being a homosexual.

give it up.

and you did ask me to prove a negative.
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Are those the documents you were talking about?

Gee - thanks for showing us NON-SAHIH evidence. I thought the way you were rabbiting on about da’if the least you could do was to provide sahih evidence.

Your wikipedia arguments about Aisha not being nine are easily debunked. They aren’t even consistent and are self-debunking. They rule each other out - because they are all FALSE.

Thanks for the entertainment, scarecrow. I’m sure the crows will be pleased.

Rodrigo
 
good job rod.

now, the average age of women that were legally married in ancient rome at the time were 10-13.

some women reach puberty as early as nine and the average is 10-14 and have their first period.

*When does menstruation begin?

These days, girls begin to menstruate when they are about 10 to 14 years-old.
*
netdoctor.co.uk/health_advice/facts/menstruation_cycle.htm

whats the big deal?
 
Scarecrow said:
good job rod.

now, the average age of women that were legally married in ancient rome at the time were 10-13.

some women reach puberty as early as nine and the average is 10-14 and have their first period.

*When does menstruation begin?

These days, girls begin to menstruate when they are about 10 to 14 years-old.
*
netdoctor.co.uk/health_advice/facts/menstruation_cycle.htm

whats the big deal?
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Have you read this whole thread? Or this one?:rolleyes: I don’t usually bother talking to people who ignore everything anyone says to them. In any case, if she’s 10 to 13, she’s not a woman. If she’s not a woman yet, it’s not marriage. Holding someone to a lifelong “contract” she is not ready to understand and responsibly make is just coercion, and any coercion that takes over a person’s future and eliminates her freedom is called slavery.
 
scarecrow,

Which Roman pedophile was a prophet of God, the fount of all wisdom, the guide to human morality, the perfect example for humanity for all time?

Not one of them was.

But Muhammad is supposed to be those things - hence we expect him to show moral behavior.

Besides, some girls as young as 4 achieve menses. Does that mean you’ll be willing to allow a 53 year old man to have sex with a 4 year old child?

The fact that Muhammad as a 53 year old man had sex with a 9 year old pre-pubescent child turns many people off because we cannot conceive that a true prophet of God would do such a thing.

Further, his example is followed in many Muslim countries, in fact, until Western influences and sensibilities took hold, it was followed in all Muslim countries. Hence you will find many Muslim girls of 9 being married off to OOOOOLD men because Muhammad did so. I don’t know about you but I have serious reservations about it.
 
rod, that doesnt sound very Christian to say what you said. Not very Charitable.

are you a medical doctor to know what a pedophile is? what is pedophilia?
 
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