Aging Parents Questions

[maryjk]

Good advice and I understand that it will take a little while. I actually want them to have as much independence as they want for as long as they can. I want them to be happy. The family meeting will be just a first step.

One thing is that they talked about selling one of their houses and improving the accessibility of the other fifteen years ago and it hasn’t happened.

Okay, that is bad.

It shouldn’t take 15 years from talking to doing.

We talked about accessibility at their house, and a few years later, they moved to a home that was all on one floor. Eventually that was too much for them. And we were too far away to help.

So we talked again, and a little later we got them into an apartment just 10 minutes from us.

Looking back, they didn’t take those steps until something happened to show them that they were taking on more than they could handle. It took a couple of emergency trips back home, and me reminding them that I wasn’t just around the corner before they were willing to give up their home and move to the apartment.

 

[Bonnie]

Back to the danger of stairs - I’ve known 2 people who died as a result of falling down stairs. One was an older neighbor with Parkinson’s and the other a friend my age (mid-30s at the time) who had a brain tumor.

I’ll stick to one level.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Okay, that is bad.

It shouldn’t take 15 years from talking to doing.

We talked about accessibility at their house, and a few years later, they moved to a home that was all on one floor. Eventually that was too much for them. And we were too far away to help.

So we talked again, and a little later we got them into an apartment just 10 minutes from us.

Looking back, they didn’t take those steps until something happened to show them that they were taking on more than they could handle. It took a couple of emergency trips back home, and me reminding them that I wasn’t just around the corner before they were willing to give up their home and move to the apartment.

Good for them!

Unfortunately older people can be very stubborn.

I already moved into a condo after my kids moved out. I didn’t need a big multi-story house with a lawn anymore. I’ll be 60 soon and realizing I have a new life as a single ahead of me. Join clubs, etc. and not be tied down by huge energy bills and yard work. I still have enough room and an extra bath for visits.

 

[Bonnie]

You’re smart. I’ll probably try to hang on here at the farm until I can no longer care for the animals.

 

[Annie39]

It amazes me that parents can be so damn defensive about this subject. Is it a denial of death? They don’t want to talk about a day when they might be dependent upon others…or they are secretive and don’t want anyone to know their business. Well, if their estate goes to probate, then EVERYONE will know their business because it’ll be a matter of public record! “Into every life some rain must fall?” Really? I know people who are like this but it still hacks me off. If you have problems with your children, solve them NOW, don’t wait to punish them after you die!

My sons are going to know what needs to happen should I die suddenly. They are going to know what to do and who to call if hubby and I go at the same time. I would urge the poster who is going to leave one of her children in charge of the estate, with the others not knowing anything, to rethink this plan. If she is that worried about those children now, while she is still alive, think of what kind of living hell they will make their sibling go through. I think you really need to think carefully about making one child the executor. It’s not an easy job in the best of cases and if there are funds that are to be distributed unequally, it’s going to be even more thankless and could ruin the relationship between the siblings FOREVER.

Frankly, if my husband and I have anything we want to give our sons, it’s going to happen while we are still alive and then anything else will be set up as charity (except perhaps the house). This after-death punishment with money or property is for the birds. Keeping your kids in the dark about your estate plan or will is passive-aggressive and cruel. We ALL DIE! Get over yourselves and give them some credit for wanting to love and take care of you, not just your money!

I’m a bit intrigued that our decisions actually make you angry. Our estate is not going to probate but it is our business to divulge or not divulge what that information and to whom.

If my son’s siblings are the type to make their older brother’s life a living hell, what do you think they deserve? If your son’s are going to know everything then I’m betting that that is your wise choice. If for some reason we decide differently I would hope that since we are strangers you will give me the benefit of the doubt.

We have already given away much of what we have to two of my sons the other one really doesn’t want anything that we are getting rid of but may want a few things that we are retaining when we no longer want them or need them.

I have been reading your postings on other forums and have considered you very wise so I’m going to pretend that if you knew the situation you might not think me so cruel.

We have raised all of them to have more respect for us than to sit us down when we are still able to make our own decisions and start making demands. It seemed to me that the op’s parents are capable of living the life they chose. He admitted that he thinks that his mom will think that he will be overstepping his bounds. Definition of a son of ours who has overstepped his bounds: One of us THINKS that he overstepped.

Annie

 

[Annie39]

You sound very stubborn. Alphonsus’s only other sibling lives out of town. Alphonsus probably has a family of her own.

I you can’t do things for yourself or pay somebody to do them, move to a place free from the baggage.

I have friends who have done that. And they’re happy they did it while they were still young enough to withstand the moves and the sorting of clutter that accompanies that.

How am I stubborne? the op asked for advice. I gave mine. Your’s here is ad hominem and not so very helpful. I have friends his parent’s age some older. They can make decisions for themselves none of us has dementia. If I were in the mother’s place, I would not want to have to care for even one large house let alone two but his mom does. Its her descision. if he and his parents are not close enough to discuss things like this then if he insists he may be sorry. I can confide in one son but not the others. This is life

 

[EasterJoy]

It amazes me that parents can be so damn defensive about this subject. Is it a denial of death? They don’t want to talk about a day when they might be dependent upon others…or they are secretive and don’t want anyone to know their business. Well, if their estate goes to probate, then EVERYONE will know their business because it’ll be a matter of public record! “Into every life some rain must fall?” Really? I know people who are like this but it still hacks me off. If you have problems with your children, solve them NOW, don’t wait to punish them after you die!

My sons are going to know what needs to happen should I die suddenly. They are going to know what to do and who to call if hubby and I go at the same time. I would urge the poster who is going to leave one of her children in charge of the estate, with the others not knowing anything, to rethink this plan. If she is that worried about those children now, while she is still alive, think of what kind of living hell they will make their sibling go through. I think you really need to think carefully about making one child the executor. It’s not an easy job in the best of cases and if there are funds that are to be distributed unequally, it’s going to be even more thankless and could ruin the relationship between the siblings FOREVER.

Frankly, if my husband and I have anything we want to give our sons, it’s going to happen while we are still alive and then anything else will be set up as charity (except perhaps the house). This after-death punishment with money or property is for the birds. Keeping your kids in the dark about your estate plan or will is passive-aggressive and cruel. We ALL DIE! Get over yourselves and give them some credit for wanting to love and take care of you, not just your money!

It doesn’t take a denial of death. Sometimes family members–this is both the younger ones and the older ones–learn to be secretive about their life plans because their past decisions to disclose their personal business was taken as an invitation to other members of the family to have a debate about it. What they don’t know, they can’t pester you about, and if all they have ever done is pester you to do what they want when you have made a disclosure, that kind of makes disclosure for the birds, too.

Likewise, if parents decide that they want their attorney to be their executor, then they may decide there is no point in telling their children only to have to watch the children go bananas about it. If they love the house they’re in, stairs and all, well, it is their choice to hope they die before they lose their ability to do stairs. One of my aunts and her husband bought a ranch so they’d always be able to do stairs, and they both died suddenly on a day when their knees and balance were still very much in working order. I’m all in favor of having a plan–I’m 50, and I live in a handicapped-accessible house–but I don’t think it is necessary to abandon Plan A because it won’t work for all possible scenarios. All that is necessary is to have a Plan B, or to be able to take the consequences of not having one.

It is not the children’s business to know how their parents have their estate arranged. It is their business to know whether or not their parents have an estate plan, and if so who has access to it if it is needed, whether because of incapacity or death.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I’m a bit intrigued that our decisions actually make you angry. Our estate is not going to probate but it is our business to divulge or not divulge what that information and to whom.

If my son’s siblings are the type to make their older brother’s life a living hell, what do you think they deserve? If your son’s are going to know everything then I’m betting that that is your wise choice. If for some reason we decide differently I would hope that since we are strangers you will give me the benefit of the doubt.

We have already given away much of what we have to two of my sons the other one really doesn’t want anything that we are getting rid of but may want a few things that we are retaining when we no longer want them or need them.

I have been reading your postings on other forums and have considered you very wise so I’m going to pretend that if you knew the situation you might not think me so cruel.

We have raised all of them to have more respect for us than to sit us down when we are still able to make our own decisions and start making demands. It seemed to me that the op’s parents are capable of living the life they chose. He admitted that he thinks that his mom will think that he will be overstepping his bounds. Definition of a son of ours who has overstepped his bounds: One of us THINKS that he overstepped.

Annie

It’s more your attitude that seems unhelpful and belligerent. If the OP’s’ parents want their sons to leave them alone, they can achieve that by continuing to stay in denial about the future. If I had asked my mother out of love, more than once, what she has planned, what she wants me to do, etc. and she told me nothing, or worse, said “Butt out!” then that is what I would do. I would simply let them experience the consequences of their choices without any intervention. I’d call, and visit, but if they complained about the houses, etc. I’d just say, “Oh I year you! It’s tough, isn’t it?” and hang up the phone.

Everyone is different. I’d appreciate knowing my sons care enough about me to worry, as I have about them since their birth.

p.s. Thanks for the compliment, but any wisdom only runs through me from the Holy Spirit!

 

[Annie39]

It’s more your attitude that seems unhelpful and belligerent. If the OP’s’ parents want their sons to leave them alone, they can achieve that by continuing to stay in denial about the future. If I had asked my mother out of love, more than once, what she has planned, what she wants me to do, etc. and she told me nothing, or worse, said “Butt out!” then that is what I would do. I would simply let them experience the consequences of their choices without any intervention. I’d call, and visit, but if they complained about the houses, etc. I’d just say, “Oh I year you! It’s tough, isn’t it?” and hang up the phone.

Everyone is different. I’d appreciate knowing my sons care enough about me to worry, as I have about them since their birth.

p.s. Thanks for the compliment, but any wisdom only runs through me from the Holy Spirit!

Well, I thought it was quite helpful, as for belligerent, I told him how he sounded to my ears errr eyes.
If I am not inclined to let certain offspring in on our plans I’m hardly going to complain to that or those offspring so I don’t think that there will be any “oh I hear you…”. I cannot imagine any of those offspring hanging up on me. That would be the last time I assure you.

Some parents have given all their love and attention to some offspring and those same offspring grow up and tell them that that makes no difference because the parents didn’t give money for a certain thing that was against the parent’s Catholic beliefs. No matter those parents are supposed to fork over and not judge. So those Catholic parents are all but person non grata.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Well, I thought it was quite helpful, as for belligerent, I told him how he sounded to my ears errr eyes.
If I am not inclined to let certain offspring in on our plans I’m hardly going to complain to that or those offspring so I don’t think that there will be any “oh I hear you…”. I cannot imagine any of those offspring hanging up on me. That would be the last time I assure you.

Some parents have given all their love and attention to some offspring and those same offspring grow up and tell them that that makes no difference because the parents didn’t give money for a certain thing that was against the parent’s Catholic beliefs. No matter those parents are supposed to fork over and not judge. So those Catholic parents are all but person non grata.

I’m sorry that some of your kids are rat’s patoots! But I don’t think the OP sounds like that, and I think he’s motivated by concern for his parents, not greed or revenge. So… There’s only so much anyone can do.

BTW, I didn’t mean to suggest the OP should abruptly hang up on his mother or father, should have said, “Hang up the phone when the conversation is over.” And go his own way. Detach with love, in other words.

 

[Annie39]

I’m sorry that some of your kids are rat’s patoots! But I don’t think the OP sounds like that, and I think he’s motivated by concern for his parents, not greed or revenge. So… There’s only so much anyone can do.

BTW, I didn’t mean to suggest the OP should abruptly hang up on his mother or father, should have said, “Hang up the phone when the conversation is over.” And go his own way. Detach with love, in other words.

For the record I don’t think that he sound anything like that either. But I can only go by what he wrote and he does seem to be pushing farther than his mom wants to go. I personally would let him know where the paper work is if he is the executer. I can’t understand why she doesn’t. But I’m not her and she is, after all, in her right mind.

Annie

 

[EasterJoy]

…No matter those parents are supposed to fork over and not judge…

Supposed to? Yes, the world is full of people who are “supposed to” give us money with no questions asked and no strings attached. A total realistic attitude, that.

It is not a reflection on a parent when the child goes out looking for a way to get their nose bent out of shape.

 

[Annie39]

Supposed to? Yes, the world is full of people who are “supposed to” give us money with no questions asked and no strings attached. A total realistic attitude, that.

It is not a reflection on a parent when the child goes out looking for a way to get their nose bent out of shape.

So you see it is best to work with the information given. I was working with the information that the op gave and I am within shouting distance of his parents’ age and I gave my perspective. I don’t know why his mom is reluctant to give him more information but clearly she is. I can’t judge her motives if she hasn’t told me what they are and obviously I don’t know the lady.

Annie

 

[severus68]

My husband had surgery last December. He was hospitalized for a few days. During that time my daughter-in-law (whom I hardly know) took over and would begin talking to the nurse while I just stood there with my mouth open. I didn’t want to say “uh, I’m his wife” because it would have caused a problem with my son (she’s only trying to help, don’t ya know). I told this story to my sister and her daughter not long after. My niece said, well after people get to a certain age they kind of disappear!

I will be 70 in August. I’m perfectly sound of mind. I’m able of taking care of myself. My husband can run rings around most men in their thirties. We call him the energizer bunny. He also has all of his mental faculties. I don‘t know your folks but I know that if my kids came to us to have “that talk” I would be insulted. What we do with ourselves is not their business. Perhaps we have planned properly or perhaps not. If not, into each life a little rain must fall hope they are ready for it. As it is we are getting rid of a lot of things, clearing out closets. Giving away things (lots of books) and throwing out other things. We have never been what you might call pack rats but we do have some superfluous stuff around. We are making the decision ourselves that we would like to move closer to the grandkids. Once again it’s our choice. As I see it, as long as one parent has his or her mental faculties I suggest that you treat them like adults. If one of mine started treating me like a child (very disrespectful) I’d let him know in no uncertain terms that he is out of line.

After writing the above comment I went back to read your post again and would like to comment further on one paragraph “My brother and I have discussed having the elder care, end-of-life talk with mom, but, though I love her dearly, she is a dragon lady with a lot defense mechanisms and a healthy does of pride couple with the usual fears of aging; loss of agency, feeling of uselessness, etc.”

I must say that that paragraph comes off as unmitigated condescending pride. Why ever would a loving son put his mentally and physically capable mom in a situation that would cause her to be behave defensively. Seems that your mom is nicer than my sons" mom because this one thinks that a good defense is a great offence. End-of-life discussion INDEED. Have you measured the curtains?

Annie

You certainly are not in your dotage.

 

[MJJean]

Like you said, your hubby and his siblings would feel better. The parents are the ones who should be thought of first.

Annie

And that is the point! We are thinking of them first. We want them to be taken care of according to their wishes while they are alive and unable to care for themselves and their remains cared for according to their wishes in death.

Heck, I’m 38 and my husband and kids (19, 14, 12) know my wishes in case of catastrophic accident/illness or death.

 

[lapislazuli]

I broke my ankle on March 17 (early morning st. patrick’s day, no partying, just got dizzy and fell) had to be carried out of the 3-story townhouse, had surgery a few days later and ended up in an (name removed by moderator)atient rehab facility for over 2 weeks. I couldn’t go back home due to not managing the stairs, family didn’t have anything accessible and our homeowner’s association didn’t have any ideas.
When I did get home I had to stay on the main floor for several weeks and that’s when I learned how inaccessible the place is. I couldn’t get around on crutches, didn’t have the balance so used a walker and wheelchair and I had to get up the stairs into our place by sitting on the ground and pulling myself up with my arms.
I also found out that the doorways aren’t wide enough for a wheelchair or walker so I’d approach the bathroom doorway in a wheelchair then use a walker to turn around. to take a shower I had to sit on the stairs and go up/down pulling myself with my arms, the same as our outside stairs.
this was all b/c I could not put weight on the injury. now I can walk again with a cane and can drive but I’m still doing outpatient PT and have some stiffness and can see how dependence happens overnight. I’m 44, it’s not always about age. even a ranch house with no stairs would have been harder in a wheelchair/walker but not this much harder.

 

[EasterJoy]

I broke my ankle on March 17 (early morning st. patrick’s day, no partying, just got dizzy and fell) had to be carried out of the 3-story townhouse, had surgery a few days later and ended up in an (name removed by moderator)atient rehab facility for over 2 weeks. I couldn’t go back home due to not managing the stairs, family didn’t have anything accessible and our homeowner’s association didn’t have any ideas.
When I did get home I had to stay on the main floor for several weeks and that’s when I learned how inaccessible the place is. I couldn’t get around on crutches, didn’t have the balance so used a walker and wheelchair and I had to get up the stairs into our place by sitting on the ground and pulling myself up with my arms.
I also found out that the doorways aren’t wide enough for a wheelchair or walker so I’d approach the bathroom doorway in a wheelchair then use a walker to turn around. to take a shower I had to sit on the stairs and go up/down pulling myself with my arms, the same as our outside stairs.
this was all b/c I could not put weight on the injury. now I can walk again with a cane and can drive but I’m still doing outpatient PT and have some stiffness and can see how dependence happens overnight. I’m 44, it’s not always about age. even a ranch house with no stairs would have been harder in a wheelchair/walker but not this much harder.

We have an accessible house (not the whole thing, but the main floor with a bedroom on it) because I had a mid-20s roommate have the same thing happen to her. When you’re young, you might only need the added accessibility for a short time, but even if you never blow out a knee, it is nice to have a place where there are no stairs when you take groceries between the car and the kitchen, a bedroom you can get to by yourself in a cast, the doors are wide enough for a double stroller, it only takes an elbow to open a door, flip a light switch or turn on a faucet and so on. (It is not just about accommodating when you lose walking ability, but also about when using grip strength and fine motor skills starts getting less convenient.) Its nice because anyone can visit you, too, both the adults who have trouble getting around and little kids that can fall or trip someone else on “sunken living room” stairs. The only drawback is that I think dirt and whatnot tracks in or blows in the door easier when there is no step. Even though a stair here or there does add architectural interest, I don’t ever want to own a different kind of home. Still, my parents had serious mobility issues, and they loved their home with a stairs too much to move out when it wasn’t absolutely necessary. You take the risk of losing your home when you lose your mobility, but to each his own.

If anyone is building or looking for a handicap-accessible home, I’d suggest Building for a Lifetime by Margaret Wylde, Sam Clark and Adrian Baron-Robins. Just because they put in grab bars and a ramp, that doesn’t necessarily make it accessible. It’s an older book, but it is still out there.

 

[Annie39]

You certainly are not in your dotage.

 

[Annie39]

And that is the point! We are thinking of them first. We want them to be taken care of according to their wishes while they are alive and unable to care for themselves and their remains cared for according to their wishes in death.

Heck, I’m 38 and my husband and kids (19, 14, 12) know my wishes in case of catastrophic accident/illness or death.

At 38 it is you who made the decision to let your family including your children know your wishes in case of a catastrophe. Since you are not in your dotage it is unthinkable that someone should over step his bounds to tell you who you should or should not tell this information to. And that is my point. People in their mid-70s are just that people. Things seem to be going smoothly in the MJJean house and I would be overjoyed if I were to somehow discern that this would be the case through the years until you are my age. But not everyone’s life is like that. There may come a day when you may think that it is wiser not to disclose some things to one or more of your offspring. But it is your choice once again. Some of us in the older crowd, believe it or not are not so different from you. As I mentioned earlier in this thread we have already been divesting ourselves of un-needed “stuff”. Truthfully I started procrastinating lately. This thread has reminded me to get in gear. Tomorrow the closet in the master brm.

Annie

 

[MJJean]

At 38 it is you who made the decision to let your family including your children know your wishes in case of a catastrophe. Since you are not in your dotage it is unthinkable that someone should over step his bounds to tell you who you should or should not tell this information to. And that is my point. People in their mid-70s are just that people. Things seem to be going smoothly in the MJJean house and I would be overjoyed if I were to somehow discern that this would be the case through the years until you are my age. But not everyone’s life is like that. There may come a day when you may think that it is wiser not to disclose some things to one or more of your offspring. But it is your choice once again. Some of us in the older crowd, believe it or not are not so different from you. As I mentioned earlier in this thread we have already been divesting ourselves of un-needed “stuff”. Truthfully I started procrastinating lately. This thread has reminded me to get in gear. Tomorrow the closet in the master brm.

Annie

I love getting rid of “stuff”. We bought a “small” house built in '55. Small by today’s standards, but really just fine. Since I hate clutter, even in cupboards and closets, I go through things and either find someone I know who can use them, sell them on Craigslist, or donate them. Feels great to clear out things we don’t use much/don’t need and to use the money to get something we do need or to know my old junk is being useful for someone else.

Anyways, I totally get your point. When my younger kids are older I am pretty sure it will not be our oldest who will be put in charge when the need arises. And I just mentioned my age to illustrate that I think it’s important to have a plan and at least one relative who knows your wishes and has legal authority to enforce them if/when you cannot. You have a plan and one adult who will carry out your plan. The OP’s parents do not.

I guess, from my point of view, it’s about being realistic, responsible, and loving. I don’t want to make my illness or death and more difficult for my kin than it has to be.