Agnostic Fiance (sorry if repeat)

[yourview1]

Hey I’m a newbie to the site. I ended up on here b/c I googled “agnostic conversion” and it ended up on the thread of an agnostic spouse who was overseas. Gave me a little hope that I could get some great advice with you guys if I posted what I’m dealing right now with my fiance. I also posted this in the apologetics thread b/c I’m not too sure where this thread should be! :-/

My fiance is agnostic, thinking that there is definitely a higher being but he thinks we’re too small and unknowlegdable to know for certain what this being is and what it thinks is right and wrong. He was raised without a religion although he was baptised Catholic (due to the parents wanting to please his grandparents) and his parents did a great job raising him in right and wrong without religion, but this raising has made it frustrating for us b/c he thinks some of the teachings of the Church are limiting and closeminded (homosexuals, birth control), and I want him to understand what this faith is and not be bitter towards it.

This all came to surface when we were discussing raising children recently, and before then, I thought he realized that I was going to bring up my children in the faith with the sacraments and Mass, etc b/c I told him that I needed them raised in the faith for us to get married. Unfortunately, he translated that as they would go to Mass every now and again and I would teach them my faith but never immerse them in it b/c he wants his side to be taught too. There are other arguments about it but that’s the jist of it.

we both have very good arguements but I think that the only way he’ll see my side is if he starts understanding my faith and why i feel inclined to do this. I asked him to please go to Mass with me every Sunday and Pray the rosary with me every day for three months to decide if we can get past this. During this three month period, I’m going to do 10 novenas.

He agreed but said that he’ll feel like he’s just “talking to the air” when he’s praying and he doesn’t know why this will help. I told him that I’m not trying to convert him, I’m just wanting him to understand my faith deeper and if anything, the rosary is a great way to meditate about universal things like becoming humble, more charitable, etc and I think that it will de-stress him in life.

I guess waht I’m asking is am I taking the right path? Is there any supplemental reading I can give him that isn’t judgemental on other beliefs but gives a great teaching of the faith? He’s very logical in his thinking, so I would need something that could convince a very educated and innovative man about our beliefs. Should I do anymore prayers? Is there any order of action that I’m misssing or should do?

Thank you all so much for listening and hopefully responding. This is a breath of fresh air!

 

[Belle10]

This all came to surface when we were discussing raising children recently, and before then, I thought he realized that I was going to bring up my children in the faith with the sacraments and Mass, etc b/c I told him that I needed them raised in the faith for us to get married. Unfortunately, he translated that as they would go to Mass every now and again and I would teach them my faith but never immerse them in it b/c he wants his side to be taught too. There are other arguments about it but that’s the jist of it.

Welcome to CAF

First, a word of advice: you’re going to get a lot of differing views here, some presented kindly and others not so much. Try not to take things personally (though it can be hard not to sometimes).

I am married to a Christian, though not Catholic, man. Before you get married you need to come to decisions on these issues, not after you get married. My husband agreed that our children would be raised Catholic; if your fiance wants to teach them “his side too” then he wouldn’t be making truthful wedding vows (yes, they include raising children Catholic if you’re married in the Catholic Church).

You mentioned that he thinks the Church is strict and narrow-minded in many of its teachings, but if he (and you - perhaps together?) read and actually learn about the doctrines and theology behind things, they make perfect sense and are actually quite liberating. I’m sure others will point you in the right direction for specific things to read.

Best wishes, and I’ll offer a prayer for you that you can discern the appropriate steps for your future and your relationship with this man. God bless you.

 

[JustAnotherThou]

I believe that it is VERY important in a marriage that you share the same basic core faith (preferably same religion). If not you will be faced with constant struggles. My example is not the best, although in college I was engaged to a man that was agnostic, he went to Catholic schools K-12 although was there just for the great education, so he really didn’t have a problem with me being Catholic. Through our engagement I did realize that there were some core beliefs that we would struggle with. The one that finally broke off the engagement was divorce. We were about 6 months from our wedding day when he would make comments here and there such has “if we ever get divorced…” Well being Catholic I was not looking at EVER getting divorced. Then it hit me like a brick wall, even though this was a GREAT guy and other than a few divorce comments we got along wonderfully. I felt God was telling me 1) I was not ready to get married at that time 2) this was not the spouse God intended for me.
It was difficult to realize this because he was really a great guy. Now some 15 years later, I realize he was not great for me.

 

[kage_ar]

Mere Christianity by CS Lewis

A Pocket Guide to the Meaning of Life by Peter Kreeft (and much more of Kreeft’s work)

The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel

Jesus of Nazereth by our Holy Father

Those are a few to start with

 

[Belle10]

He agreed but said that he’ll feel like he’s just “talking to the air” when he’s praying and he doesn’t know why this will help. I told him that I’m not trying to convert him, I’m just wanting him to understand my faith deeper and if anything, the rosary is a great way to meditate about universal things like becoming humble, more charitable, etc and I think that it will de-stress him in life.

Just another thing I wanted to mention: praying the Rosary isn’t meant for meditating on random things, it’s meant for meditating on the different stages of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection. For information on how to pray the Rosary, please go here: ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/rosary/how_to.htm

Also, I highly suggest you speak with a priest regarding your situation. If you’re preparing for marriage, you should be going through pre-cana with your priest anyway.

 

[kage_ar]

Two more that came to mind:

What’s So Great About Christianity by Dinesh D’Souza

**The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Bible (Politically Incorrect Guides) (Paperback)
**by Robert J. Hutchinson

 

[yourview1]

Thanks so much for the (name removed by moderator)ut and warm welcome! I’m definitely going to check those books out, Kage! great stuff.

I’m going to contact a priest b/c we’ve been meaning to start pre cana but thats been put on hold since we haven’t decided on a date due to school and money issues. Thanks for the suggestion, I’ll probably talk to him myself before bring my fiance. What I meant about the Rosary is that I meditate on the traits that I most want to learn from Mary and Jesus in the mysteries, which involve humbleness, selflessness, sacrifice, etc. Thanks for the link though. it’ll help me explain it to my fiance and hopefully, I’ll also get a richer background, Belle!

Also, Belle, if you have some links or references you can give me on the issues of homosexuality and contraceptives, that would be great, b/c those are issues that I’m having a hard time accepting alongside my fiance (I am very open minded) and that would help us reconcile what we truly believe in.

JustAnotherThou, Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut, I know he is adamant against divorce, doesn’t believe in it, so at least thats something we are really strong on. Also pro-life, etc. I’m not too sure i’m against contraceptives wholeheartedly within a marriage (condoms) b/c they can fail too and I’m still open to life in the family, so we agree on that. I have alot in common with him but I do understand what youre saying about faith being a big block of hte marriage. i will definitely keep that in mind, on whether this is a marriage I will be happy in and he will be also.

Again, thanks so much for your imput! I need to hear this to discern this relationship and its hard to get good advice in my real time life since there are so few people to talk about this who i identify with. Hope to hear back from you all soon!

 

[JustAnotherThou]

Thanks so much for the (name removed by moderator)ut and warm welcome! I’m definitely going to check those books out, Kage! great stuff.

I’m going to contact a priest b/c we’ve been meaning to start pre cana but thats been put on hold since we haven’t decided on a date due to school and money issues. Thanks for the suggestion, I’ll probably talk to him myself before bring my fiance. What I meant about the Rosary is that I meditate on the traits that I most want to learn from Mary and Jesus in the mysteries, which involve humbleness, selflessness, sacrifice, etc. Thanks for the link though. it’ll help me explain it to my fiance and hopefully, I’ll also get a richer background, Belle!

Also, Belle, if you have some links or references you can give me on the issues of homosexuality and contraceptives, that would be great, b/c those are issues that I’m having a hard time accepting alongside my fiance (I am very open minded) and that would help us reconcile what we truly believe in.

JustAnotherThou, Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut, I know he is adamant against divorce, doesn’t believe in it, so at least thats something we are really strong on. Also pro-life, etc. I’m not too sure i’m against contraceptives wholeheartedly within a marriage (condoms) b/c they can fail too and I’m still open to life in the family, so we agree on that. I have alot in common with him but I do understand what youre saying about faith being a big block of hte marriage. i will definitely keep that in mind, on whether this is a marriage I will be happy in and he will be also.

Again, thanks so much for your imput! I need to hear this to discern this relationship and its hard to get good advice in my real time life since there are so few people to talk about this who i identify with. Hope to hear back from you all soon!

I also had some “issues” with the Church standing on contraceptives in the past. NFP really helped me through my personal issues with that. The more I learn about my faith, the more I understand where the Church and the Catholic faith. As far as homosexuals, it is not that the Church is against homosexuals, the Church believes that sex outside of marriage is wrong, no matter heterosexual or homosexual. The Church also believes that marriage is between a man and a woman. This is the teaching of Christ, the Church can’t change what Christ said. I still have some struggles with the Church’s teaching, I have to realize they are my struggles of understanding my faith, not the Church’s. The more we educate ourselves in the Church’s teaching the more we understand. Thankfully for me, the Church is VERY patient!!

 

[Belle10]

I’m going to contact a priest b/c we’ve been meaning to start pre cana but thats been put on hold since we haven’t decided on a date due to school and money issues.
What I meant about the Rosary is that I meditate on the traits that I most want to learn from Mary and Jesus in the mysteries, which involve humbleness, selflessness, sacrifice, etc.

Good - talking to your priest will likely help you recognize issues you may not have thought of and maybe he can help you in the discernment process. On the Rosary, I get what you mean now.

Also, Belle, if you have some links or references you can give me on the issues of homosexuality and contraceptives, that would be great, b/c those are issues that I’m having a hard time accepting alongside my fiance (I am very open minded) and that would help us reconcile what we truly believe in.

Being very open-minded is fine, but being open-minded in accepting sinful behavior isn’t right. The RCC (Roman Catholic Church) isn’t closed-minded or narrow-minded, it simply follows the “rules” set forth by Jesus and in sacred scripture. Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church states here:

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

The CCC says much about sexuality and marriage, including:

III. THE LOVE OF HUSBAND AND WIFE

2360 Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament.

2361 "Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not something simply biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death."143

2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145

Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:

The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146
2363 The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.

The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.

There is of course much more, so I suggest looking up marriage, sexuality, or whatever you want to learn about in the CCC. You can find it here: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2357 You can click on index, then search alphabetically.

Regarding NFP, there is also a lot on it in the CCC. Because of character limits, I can’t post it all here, so check out the CCC. The Couple to Couple League has a lot of great information: ccli.org/

I believe you can find an NFP instructor in your area through the website. I highly recommend reading this article: ccli.org/nfp/morality/b-galeone.php

Again, please talk with your priest and other people who follow the Church’s teachings. Since you yourself said (I think ) that you’re trying to figure out all the teachings, what you believe, etc., it’s very important to establish what you want in marriage and life before you get married.

Offering another prayer for you.

 

[yourview1]

Great advice! I think i’m going to encourage my fiance to come on the boards with me to figure out some problems we have in accepting the teachings of birth control and homosexuality.

Justanotherthou, your explanation of homosexuality is a great explanationa nd i’ll definitely look into it and let my fiance know, b/c that does make sense.

I have looked a little into NFP but I don’t understand why that is accepted when it’s process is still in avoidance of pregnancy , the same way a condom is used. I will also look into that and Belle, the quotes from catechism are really helpful. i’ll have to look at the links soon too! Thanks all of you for all the AMAZING sources of information in just one day!

 

[JustAnotherThou]

Great advice! I think i’m going to encourage my fiance to come on the boards with me to figure out some problems we have in accepting the teachings of birth control and homosexuality.

Justanotherthou, your explanation of homosexuality is a great explanationa nd i’ll definitely look into it and let my fiance know, b/c that does make sense.

I have looked a little into NFP but I don’t understand why that is accepted when it’s process is still in avoidance of pregnancy , the same way a condom is used. I will also look into that and Belle, the quotes from catechism are really helpful. i’ll have to look at the links soon too! Thanks all of you for all the AMAZING sources of information in just one day!

I tend to work best with the simple (dumbed down) explanations. I can read the catechism all day, but the simple works best for me.

 

[Belle10]

I have looked a little into NFP but I don’t understand why that is accepted when it’s process is still in avoidance of pregnancy , the same way a condom is used.

NFP and the usage of artificial birth control (ABC) such as condoms are not the same at all.

Condoms and other ABC put a barrier (whether physical or chemical) between the spouses, blocking the possibility of life (or sometimes causing its destruction, as can happen with the pill).

NFP teaches spouses to recognize the signs of a woman’s fertile days and if they have grave reason to avoid getting pregnant, to abstain from relations during that fertile time. It can also be very effective in achieving conception, since by tracking fertility the couple can “time” relations correctly.

I really think you need to talk to an NFP teacher and/or a priest as soon as possible so you can get the understanding down. NFP isn’t used with the mentality of contraception…There is a HUGE fundamental difference between NFP and ABC, and I don’t know if I’m making it clear or not.

 

[Belle10]

Morning bump so the OP can find the thread…

 

[Ilroy]

You might also check out talks and books by Christopher West. He has good indepth explainations of why ABC would be wrong and many other marriage topics.christopherwest.com/
Many free mp3 downloads on his site too.

Oh, also you said your fiance is very intelligent and whatnot…he might be a prime candidate for reading the Summa Theologica from St. Thomas Aquinas. It is very long, but it could give him some of the answers to his questions about the existance and nature of God. It is available free online here:
newadvent.org/summa/

 

[1ke]

I have looked a little into NFP but I don’t understand why that is accepted when it’s process is still in avoidance of pregnancy , the same way a condom is used.

The Church does not teach it is immoral to space/plan/postpone children for a just reason.

The Church teaches that contraception is an immoral **means **of doing so. Periodic abstinence is not.

If you are going to engage in the sex act, you may not *alter *the act, which is what contraception does.

If you are not in a position to welcome a child, then you can refrain from the marital embrace during the fertile time of the month.

 

[hasikelee]

Forgive me if I’ve misunderstood…but in your post you say that he is agnostic and you give some examples that show him to be relativistic, indecisive and frankly, apathetic.

That being said, why then does he bristle at you raising the kids Catholic and cry for “his side” to be taught? Am I missing something here or isn’t it that he has no side?

I mean, if he is being truthful to you when he says he can’t make a decision on what is true and what isn’t, what he believes in and what he doesn’t, then how can he turn around and say he wants the kids to learn something?

Sounds like one of those funny sentences…
example “The truth is, there is no truth!”

Or does he really have a belief and he is not interested in sharing it with you or following it at the moment? Or perhaps claiming he doesn’t, but wants you to follow his path?

Just scratching my head here.

 

[jc-servant]

I was taught in RCIA by Dr. Janet Smith who was at U. of Dallas at the time. She had some educational tapes and things regarding the “life issues” including contraception, abortion and end of life issues. I believe she is now at Franciscan U. at Steubanville, OH. You should be able to search her online and find some good explanations for your discussions.

I would really like to caution you to get all of these issues straight before you marry. I know too many people who end up saying after their divorce that the root of their ultimate divorce was there before they married and they just did not face it or deal with it. If your husband is going to push you toward mortal sin by insisting on artificial contraception or other things, then it will be a very difficult marriage.

There are other issues that people don’t often think about like medical decisions that could put us into opposition with church teaching like the Terry Schiavo situation when her “husband” decided to starve her to death. If two people are not on the same page with their beliefs, it can make these things (even in less extreme situations) pretty stressful.

 

[Ardent_Fire]

Forgive me if I’ve misunderstood…but in your post you say that he is agnostic and you give some examples that show him to be relativistic, indecisive and frankly, apathetic.

That being said, why then does he bristle at you raising the kids Catholic and cry for “his side” to be taught? Am I missing something here or isn’t it that he has no side?

I mean, if he is being truthful to you when he says he can’t make a decision on what is true and what isn’t, what he believes in and what he doesn’t, then how can he turn around and say he wants the kids to learn something?

I totally agree. I can imagine it would be challenging enough for kids to be raised Catholic, and to stay Catholic, even when BOTH parents are Catholic. The non-Catholic spouse needs to respect and honor what is agreed upon prior to getting married – i.e. if the kids are being raised Catholic he needs to either get on board with the faith, or butt out and at least respect it. I know to the general public that is probably not “nice” or “fair” but there is no relativism in Catholicism, so there shouldn’t be any relativism when it comes to teaching the kids if they’re going to be raised Catholic.

It can be done, one of my best friends is in an interfaith marriage – hubby isn’t even Christian. And she’s doing a wonderful job and if I’m able to have kids I hope to have kids as great as hers are.

That being said living with the religious differences is A LOT of work and I know it’s at times a challenge for both of them. Let there be no questions regarding what you and your faith is about and that a lot of life and family issues be known and addressed well in advance.

 

[yourview1]

Again, Belle, your arguments are making a lot of sense to me right now and I’m starting to see why NFP is different. I’m still figuring it all out but thank you.

I spoke with a friend today about it and he gave me all these arguments and while they were all good, the greatest argument he gave me was so simple. He said he was wondering how I got to the conclusion that if NFP is alright, then, in my case, why can’'t I have my own solution if NFP can’t physically work for me? He said that since sex is such a huge gift given to humans and it effects so many generations, wouldn’t you rather err on the side that is approved by the church, rather than make up your own rules to make things “fair”? It said a lot to me b.c I know that sometimes it will be inconvenient and NFP won’t always work for my case, but at least I have the sound mind of knowing that whatever I do in this situation, I’m still not risking being wrong and having to face God on that.

ALOT to think about but it’s great stuff and has my mind winding

llroy, we researched Summa Theologicae when we first started dating and he seemed to like it, but for some reason recently, he’s been less than interested. I’m not sure if its due to the infatuation he had with me at first where he was willing to do anything for me, or if it was the fact that I said some things that he took offense to and didn’t want to bring it up again, or if we’ve both just been stressed and tired lately. Or all of the above I will try to give it another go if he’s open to it

jc servant, I LOVE stubenville! I was thinking about going to college there awhile back but I wasn’t able to due to money but anyone that teaches there is ok in my book. I’ll have to look her up. also I know what you mean about having the problems there before the marriage. I’ve heard that many times and it really makes sense. I’ll continue to think of that when talking things through with the fiance, so I can determine if this is a resolvable thing or if its something permanent.

and hasikelee and littleburgy, you have some good points. I just need to absorb them awhile and think about them b/c they do hit some truths. I’ll have to get back to you on them and if I decide to use some of those points in arguing them with my fiance.

Sorry for the long post back but I wanted to address all the wonderful advice I’ve recieved today. Thanks again!