Agnosticism - the best way

[NoelFitz]

** JCrichton,**

Thanks again for your reply.

I fear what you write is beyond my pay-grade, so I think it would be in my interest to focus on what was said in the Didache, as summarized below.

An even simpler approach is to follow the advice ‘Do Good, avoid evil’, or alternatively follow the advice of St Paul and be a follower of Christ – Jesus is Lord.

---

The teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the twelve apostles.

There are two ways, one of life and one of death, and there is a great difference between these two ways. Now this is the way of life: first, “you shall love God, who made you”; second, “your neighbor as yourself” and “whatever you do not wish to happen to you, do not do to another.”The teaching of these words is this: “Bless those who curse you,” and “pray for your enemies,” and “fast for those who persecute you.”

Cf. Matt. 22:37, 39 (Mark 12:30–31); Luke 10:27; Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18.
Cf. Matt. 7:12; Luke 6:31
Luke 6:28.

Golden rule positive
Silver rule negative.
Silver rule more commom and better.

*Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with your whole heart, and with your whole being, and with your whole strength. (Deut. 6:4-5 NAB)

Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your own people. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD. (Lev. 19:18 NAB)

"Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets. (Matt. 7:12 NAB)

bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the person who takes your cloak, do not withhold even your tunic. Give to everyone who asks of you, and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. (Lk. 6:28-31 NAB)
*

Germain Grivez “The First Principle of Practical Reason: A Commentary on the Summa Theologiae, 1-2, Question 94, Article 2” Do Good Avoid Evil

 

[abucs]

Abucs,
thank for your thoughtful reply.
I am pleased you returned to the faith, but I would hope your faith is based on more that science. I think revelation/faith is needed. Through science we might get a vague glimpse of God, but through faith the picture is clearer.

My point is that science/knowledge can lead us to agnosticism, where we cannot know clearly the truths of our religion, for these we need revelation/faith. From a human point of view agnosticism is the best we can reach.

This seems to me clear, even Thomas Aquinas could grasp it.

Hi Noel, yes you are right about not basing spirituality on science - the truth is I am working on it.

Regarding knowledge and religion (or God). Here are some interesting quotes from important scientific people in history.

From Bacon, the original formulator of the scientific method -

A little bit of reason (science) takes you away from God but more of it brings you right back.

From Isaac Newton in his preface to his ground breaking Mathematica Principia which revolutionised (and some say founded) physics -

I hope my work will help the thinking man to see the reality of God.

From Eugene Wigner, the 1963 winner of the Nobel Prize for Physics -

I could not formulate the scientific law (quantum mechanics) without respect to consciousness.

From Werner Heisenberg, the 1932 winner of the Nobel Prize for Physics -

The first gulp from the glass of natural science will make you an atheist, but God is waiting for you at the bottom of the glass

.

This has also been my experience with science.

God bless.

 

[NoelFitz]

Abucs,
great quotations, especially from modern scientists.
Thank you so much.

 

[jcrichton]

Abucs,
thank for your thoughtful reply.
I am pleased you returned to the faith, but I would hope your faith is based on more that science. I think revelation/faith is needed. Through science we might get a vague glimpse of God, but through faith the picture is clearer.

My point is that science/knowledge can lead us to agnosticism, where we cannot know clearly the truths of our religion, for these we need revelation/faith. From a human point of view agnosticism is the best we can reach.

This seems to me clear, even Thomas Aquinas could grasp it.

Hi, Noel!

…from the highlighted portion, I think that I am beginning to follow your argument…

I concur fully with that understanding: ‘knowledge cannot reveal the Truth.’

Knowledge only reveals what is discovered or made known.

Science is a tool/mechanism to measure what is revealed or made known; yet, science in itself does not hold all knowledge–it investigates, it theorizes, and deduces, and it places values on what is discovered or made known… in essence, science is a yardstick or a rod that a blind person uses to interact with his/her environment.

…so I would only add/correct the highlighted statement with: “can only” instead of “can.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Wheels10,

Thanks for trying to answer one of my basic queries.

I am reminded of the woman, **when after death because of overcrowding she was asked to share accommodation, her room-mate said that he was Adolf and he was here because he killed, among other things, millions of Jews. She replied she was here because she ate a sausage on a Friday **sixty years previously.

I find it hard to see how a good God could create a being who would suffer excruciating pain for all eternity.
When the woman ate the sausage she was directly going against the command of God in eating meat on a Friday, or so she was told.

The Bible tells us most people go to hell. Both St Thomas Aquinas and St Augustine believed most of us will end up in hell.

Will all those Catholics who believe in **contraception, abortion, homosexuality or miss Mass on Sundays go to hell, if they have clear knowledge and full consent? **Does this mean most Catholics in the west are damned?

Here are some quotes:
*
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matt. 25:41 NAB)

… ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ (Mk. 9:48 NAB)

Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (Jn. 15:6 NAB)

And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out. (Lk. 13:28 NAB)

Many are invited, but few are chosen. (Matt. 22:14 NAB)
*

Hi, Noel!

…sadly I have seen this “concern” for the “Salvation” of humanity far too often to think that it is simple coincidence…

I suspect that there’s an agent behind all those “bleeding-hearts” who are so concerned for poor humanity’s (sorry to be so blatantly raw) end game.

Their thoughts are permeated with disillusion, disbelief, disenchantment, and even perhaps genuine misunderstanding/comprehension of God… they want God’s Goodness, Mercy, Love and Justice to forcefully safeguard humanity from its own resolute determination to not only choose a life of unrighteousness but to rebel in it and indoctrinate all of its members in its revelry.

There’s all this concern for how God should, out of Love and Goodness, allow wickedness not only to exist in His Presence but to flourish and celebrate it as just another “choice.”

I hope I can help you come out of stupor by giving response to the highlighted portions of your post:

1. The woman is dead! You are basing your spiritual “correctness” on a supposition of what may take place in an exchange between two sinners.
2. You, and the woman, fully miss what the Church Teaches: during the period designated as Lent, the Church Commands, as a measure of self-discipline and as an offering for the need of the world, that Catholics refrain from eating meat on Fridays. Yet, if one does, there’s always the Sacrament of Confession/Reconciliation. There’s no summary: Damn to hell!
3. God is Spirit; Creatures such as the angels and man are made from God’s essence, hence they are part of God’s Spirit; this means that that portion of the Created Beings that are Spirit cannot die. The choice of eternal suffering has always been the Creatures’ doing not God’s–let’s put the blame where the blame should lie, shall we?
4. The Bible tells us that God wants all of mankind to be Saved; yet, realistically, the Word of God Reveals that not all men will choose God over self; hence, man’s choices and allegiance brings him to the wide gate and the easy path which leads to damnation. How many times has man chosen to ignore: “I Am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one Comes to the Father, but through Me?”
5. The Church has Taught God’s Commandments from her Inception… all who practice unrighteousness fall short of Salvation; even when the Church attempts to diminish man’s responsibility for his rejection of God and His Authority (mitigating “ignorance” or "diminished capacity of culpability), man persists not only in rejecting God but in embracing what is God-lessness: (Romans 1; St. John 3:13-21).

…since you like stories… heard the one about the scorpion crossing the river? …he convinced a fellow traveler to give him a lift… they came to an agreement where the scorpion promised not to inject his venom into his guardian… after a period of treading the waters, the scorpion sank his poisonous stinger into his protector… who, in complete astonishment, queried: ‘why did you do it, don’t you know we will both die, now?’ …to which the scorpion replied: ‘it’s my nature.’

…it is man’s nature to choose; it is man’s fallacy to choose unrighteousness over righteousness in spite of knowing that unrighteousness will lead to death.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

** JCrichton,**

Thanks again for your reply.

I fear what you write is beyond my pay-grade, so I think it would be in my interest to focus on what was said in the Didache, as summarized below.

An even simpler approach is to follow the advice ‘Do Good, avoid evil’, or alternatively follow the advice of St Paul and be a follower of Christ – Jesus is Lord.

---

The teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the twelve apostles.

There are two ways, one of life and one of death, and there is a great difference between these two ways. Now this is the way of life: first, “you shall love God, who made you”; second, “your neighbor as yourself” and “whatever you do not wish to happen to you, do not do to another.”The teaching of these words is this: “Bless those who curse you,” and “pray for your enemies,” and “fast for those who persecute you.”

Cf. Matt. 22:37, 39 (Mark 12:30–31); Luke 10:27; Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18.
Cf. Matt. 7:12; Luke 6:31
Luke 6:28.

Golden rule positive
Silver rule negative.
Silver rule more commom and better.

*Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with your whole heart, and with your whole being, and with your whole strength. (Deut. 6:4-5 NAB)

Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your own people. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD. (Lev. 19:18 NAB)

"Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets. (Matt. 7:12 NAB)

bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the person who takes your cloak, do not withhold even your tunic. Give to everyone who asks of you, and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. (Lk. 6:28-31 NAB)
*

Germain Grivez “The First Principle of Practical Reason: A Commentary on the Summa Theologiae, 1-2, Question 94, Article 2” Do Good Avoid Evil

Hi, Noel!

…as pedestrian as I am, I am disturbed by finding myself above anyone’s pay-grade… but it is bound to happen once or twice…

I do not mean to be dismissive of you… but have you considered that, if taken out of context, those passages could very well influence temerity and disloyalty to the Word?

…take “do onto others…” through manipulation of it one can claim that doing what is unjust is fair as long as that is what is expected of others… not far in the US history some were considered not to be fully human… there are even people today who espouse such belief and they purport that science and Scriptures support their “loathing” and “oppression.”

…I can recall one particular exchange with a “Christian” who believed that the poor were being punished because they did not truly Believed in God–he claimed to have gathered it from “Sacred Scriptures.”

…and there was that poster whose whole religious group was being taught by their religious leader that true Christians cannot read the Old Testament because the Old Testament would lead them to practice witchcraft–“Bible” inspired faith…

…so yeah, it is good to zero in on various passages of Scriptures… but we must uphold all of Sacred Writings in its entirety… including those passages that demonstrate that Christ Delegated His Authority to the Church and that the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, Unfolded the Truth of Christ’s Word (which includes Apostolic Teaching, Apostolic Succession and Church Doctrine and Practice).

…so I take it from:

15 If you love me you will keep my commandments.

(St. John 14:15)

…all of His Commandments!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[NoelFitz]

JCrichton,

Thank you so much for all your long and thoughtful replies to me.

I regret there is no answer to my queries.

God’s track record is not great.
He made angels, one third (possibly) rejected him.
He made man, they also rejected him.
He came to his own and he was rejected again.

You give various motives for over-emphasizing God’s love. My key motive is fear that I will end up in hell. I know I am a sinner.

I am reminded of Dives, who went to hell, just because he got good things in this life.

Also the Pharisees were condemned even thought they obeyed the Law. In fact the ten commandments appeared way before Christianity.

I am also reminded of the warning that "Not everyone who says ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. (Matt. 7:21 NAB).

At mass last week the priest said those who find Matthew’s Gospel comforting and consoling have not read it.

Again, I claim what we should do is our best, follow Christ and hope all may be well.

We cannot understand the mind of God.

 

[jcrichton]

JCrichton,

Thank you so much for all your long and thoughtful replies to me.

I regret there is no answer to my queries.

God’s track record is not great.
He made angels, one third (possibly) rejected him.
He made man, they also rejected him.
He came to his own and he was rejected again.

You give various motives for over-emphasizing God’s love. My key motive is fear that I will end up in hell. I know I am a sinner.

I am reminded of Dives, who went to hell, just because he got good things in this life.

Also the Pharisees were condemned even thought they obeyed the Law. In fact the ten commandments appeared way before Christianity.

I am also reminded of the warning that "Not everyone who says ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. (Matt. 7:21 NAB).

At mass last week the priest said those who find Matthew’s Gospel comforting and consoling have not read it.

Again, I claim what we should do is our best, follow Christ and hope all may be well.

We cannot understand the mind of God.

Hi, Noel!

I am truly sorry that you have set your mind in such narrow a margin (if the replies do not support your belief they are devoid of the Truth).

I feel that you will be forever waiting for that “Thomas” moment… sadly, that’s one of those singularities.

I pray that the Holy Spirit Convicts you and that you turn from your assuredness of “knowledge” to the assuredness of Christ: “I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life…” “If you Love Me, Obey My Commandments.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[NoelFitz]

I am grateful to all who contributed to this thread, which had a provocative title, but I got great support and encouragement from the many thoughtful and solid replies.

I think we should not try to rationalize too much, but hope in God’s mercy and love.

May I conclude with two quotes from Paul?

*For I have experienced much joy and encouragement from your love … (Phlm. 1:7 NAB)

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may abound in hope by the power of the holy Spirit. (Rom. 15:13 NAB)*