Agnosticism

[melbourne_guy]

Im on the verge of agnosticism and i would just like to state some of the reasons why.

Firstly i really dont understand the concept of faith, the more i think about it the harder it is for me to comprehend it. Faith basically states that you believe in something based on absolutely no evidence at all. When you explain to a devout catholic, or protesant or muslim, etc, that you have no faith you will usually get a response along the lines of “well you have to open your heart” or “God wants you to have faith but you refuse to”. This sounds absolutely ridiculous, the reason i dont have faith is because i choose not believe things which i have no proof for.

Heres my problem, i cant let go of catholicism i still keep my bible and reconciliation candle by my bedside and i still pray everynight, and for some reason i still try to follow the morals of the church, its wierd. I think theres a very thin line between religion and agnoticism, and at the moment im standing on it.

Is it wrong to be rational? Will God smite me for my lack of belief in something that cant be proven? I personally dont believe hell anymore. Some people define hell as eternal physical torture and some define it as a dark place without God. My theory on Gods punishment to sinners is probably the greatest punishment of of all, being thrown into non-existance.

No matter what happens to my beliefs i guess i’ll always have a special bond with catholicism for some unexplainable reason.
I would like to hear some thoughts from some agnostics on why they arent actually athiest?

 

[Mirdath]

Welcome to the club, here’s your card, meeting on the destruction of civilization as we know it is at 1pm :coffeeread:

But levity aside, yeah, where you’re at really sucks – not being able to muster the faith you think you want or need. Hopefully you won’t be walking that line for long, whichever way you end up going

As for ‘why not atheism?’ – the statement ‘God does not exist’ is just as unprovable and just as irrational as that ‘God exists’. I’m not afraid to admit I don’t know.

 

[notself]

I was an agnostic for many, many years after I left the Church. I said the Hail Mary even then. For some people faith leaves in one fell swoop. For some, it fades away. For others, faith fades and is then renewed. For me, I eventually became an athiest.

In the end, it is the life you lead that counts.

 

[inthecloud]

I felt into agnosticism for a while, now I’m more of a deist going into open theism. I think you cannot force a person to belive, and you cannot force yourself to belive. BTW, reading the mystics might be of some help. I have in great steeem the book " The Cloud of unknowing and the Book of privy councel," it have get me throught hard times, That is what i choose for a handle. Even in your faith in a personal God might fade, never lose your faith in love. The mystics knew that and they in a almost zen buddist way talk about gradualy looseing racional images or ideas of God and going into a dark cloud of the reason where only love can go throught. St John of the Cross and St Therese of Lisieux are another good readings.

 

[ricmat]

Im on the verge of agnosticism and i would just like to state some of the reasons why.

Firstly i really dont understand the concept of faith, the more i think about it the harder it is for me to comprehend it. Faith basically states that you believe in something based on absolutely no evidence at all.

Well, I’m not an agnostic or an atheist, but it seems to me that your definition of faith is not exactly how most people define it.

Faith in anything is based on evidence. But not on complete, overwhelming, “I know this to be true personally” sort of evidence.

Even outside of religion, very much of what we “know” to be true is actually based on faith. Have you ever seen an electron? No, but you know it to exist because a scientist told you so, and the scientist has faith in his equipment, and his math and observations (which most people can’t know because of their backgrounds).

Religious faith is rational in the same sense as scientific faith. And we are called as Catholics to use reason to enhance our faith.

The Catholic position on Hell is that it is a voluntary (by you) separation from God. If you spend your life using your free will to separate yourself from God, then after death, God allows you to keep that status. Many saints have had visions of Hell (St. Faustina is one), and they describe the (self inflicted) pain of residents as:

a) Despair over the loss of God - while longing for God, while hating God.

b) A perpetual remorse of conscience.

c) The permanence of their condition (the way I read this is that at the time of death, you lose the ability to “change” your mind or your soul).

d) That you see, and see, and see, and see your own evil deeds, and those of all around you. And you have a much clearer perspective on exactly why something was evil, and the damage done to others, and yourself.

e) Particular torments related to the manner in which one sinned. The torments are not punishment per-se, but a consequence of continuing to desire something that cannot be had in the spiritual realm - power, lust, greed, etc.

St. Faustina also goes on to say that the above are but a pale shadow of the things she saw. But one thing she noticed was that most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is actually a hell.

So look at the world. Look at the beauty in creation. What evidence!! Have faith that it WAS created, and has a purpose. Then continue to pray, and act as dictated by your conscience, in conjunction with church teachings.

 

[Keikiolu]

Im on the verge of agnosticism and i would just like to state some of the reasons why.

Firstly i really dont understand the concept of faith, the more i think about it the harder it is for me to comprehend it.

That’s because faith is not to be understood, only “done” while observing the results. Quit thinking about it, and experience it.

Faith basically states that you believe in something based on absolutely no evidence at all.

Not true. The evidence comes after you do (have) faith. If you don’t get evidence that satisfies you, then that means you need to redefine your definition of evidence according to the results achieved. If that means that “no apparent response” needs to be a legitimate definition of evidence, then figure out a way that that makes sense.

When you explain to a devout catholic, or protesant or muslim, etc, that you have no faith you will usually get a response along the lines of “well you have to open your heart” or “God wants you to have faith but you refuse to”. This sounds absolutely ridiculous, the reason i dont have faith is because i choose not believe things which i have no proof for.

You may choose as you wish, but keep looking at what that belief, which is itself an “unsupported” belief, gets you.

You’ll find that that belief creates more “bad” stuff, than “good” stuff in your life.

Heres my problem, i cant let go of catholicism i still keep my bible and reconciliation candle by my bedside and i still pray everynight, and for some reason i still try to follow the morals of the church, its wierd. I think theres a very thin line between religion and agnoticism, and at the moment im standing on it.

You’re not alone. Please read the catechism, as it’ll explain what agnosticism is really about.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a1.htm#2127

Is it wrong to be rational?

NO…! Being Catholic depends on being rational.

Will God smite me for my lack of belief in something that cant be proven?

How can something you don’t believe exists have any effect on you?

Obviously you DO have faith. You’ve just been convinced that your faith is in conflict with your reason, while in fact it isn’t.

What you need to believe is not that you should believe things that you have insufficient proof of, but that having faith is not irrational/unreasonable.

I personally dont believe hell anymore. Some people define hell as eternal physical torture and some define it as a dark place without God. My theory on Gods punishment to sinners is probably the greatest punishment of of all, being thrown into non-existance.

So, you DO believe in hell…! You might want to ponder why it is that you say one thing, then demonstrate to us that you don’t believe what you just said.

No matter what happens to my beliefs i guess i’ll always have a special bond with catholicism for some unexplainable reason.

Is it really unexplainable? Give it a shot. Your dark night of the soul is not unusual. It is a trial. Learn from it.

I would like to hear some thoughts from some agnostics on why they arent actually athiest?

Atheists persevere in their despair. Agnostics have some hope. Agnostics are basically wellmeaning spiritual cowards.

Sometimes it’s better to be a coward than completely lost.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Donald45]

Faith basically states that you believe in something based on absolutely no evidence at all…the reason i dont have faith is because i choose not believe things which i have no proof for.

It must be asked: Where did you obtain such an understanding of “faith,” and why have you chosen to place your faith in it? Much rests on your use of the term “proof.” What do you mean by this? Do you mean rational “proof”? Physical “proof”? Historical “proof”? Scientific “proof”? Logical “proof”? What sort of “proof” would satisfy you, and justify your Christian belief? Certainly, an immaterial Being cannot be detected by material means, so to demand scientific “proof” for God would be unrealistic, if not irrational. Logical “proof,” along the lines of mathematical certainty (2+2=4), is also inadequate regarding the issue of theism. So, then, what kind of “proof” can we Christians appeal to in support of our faith?

The Catholic Church teaches that human beings can know God----that is, can acquire the awareness that he exists----through reason alone, unaided by revelation. So, reason, by itself, can only take one so far. This is why God has also provided humanity with a self-revelation intended to disclose much more about himself than can possibly be known by reason alone. In Catholic thought, this revelation (divine disclosure) comes to us in the form of Scripture and Tradition. Essentially, this is why God has established a Church on earth, as a vehicle for communicating his self-revelation to the world.

In light of this, the suggestion that “faith is believing in something based on absolutely no evidence at all” is clearly seen to be an inadequate comprehension of the term. Indeed, genuine faith rests ultimately upon reason informed by revelation. The Christian belief in God is no irrational leap in the dark, but is rather a sober step into the light.

In any case, you must admit that your “knowledge” of a great many things rests on a simple kind of “faith.” Which is larger, Canada, or Cuba? How do you know, since you haven’t personally visited these locations and empirically measured them by means of scientific technology? Still, you’re completely justified in your answer, though you hold it on the basis of a type of “faith” which rests upon the testimony of those who know what you cannot know, and who can do what you cannot do. You trust your doctor’s diagnosis, though you’ve never been to medical school, and have no real way of “knowing” that he’s right. In other words, you have “faith” in his superior knowledge and understanding. There are multiplied hundreds of things that we “know” on no other basis than that of relying upon informed and authoritative testimony. This is a limited illustration, but it applies somewhat to the Christian belief in God. On what basis does the Christian believe? On the basis of reason informed by revelation (i.e., divine testimony).

I highly recommend a careful reading of John Paul II’s brilliant philosophical essay, Fides et Ratio (“On Faith & Reason”):

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

As a fellow intellectual Catholic, I encourage you to continue in the faith which calls us to “love God with all of our minds” (Mk. 12:30).

God bless,

Don
+T+

 

[Contarini]

Im on the verge of agnosticism and i would just like to state some of the reasons why.

Firstly i really dont understand the concept of faith, the more i think about it the harder it is for me to comprehend it. Faith basically states that you believe in something based on absolutely no evidence at all.

That is not true–it’s certainly not the Catholic position (or mine–I am not Catholic but agree with Catholicism on a lot of things). According to Aquinas, faith is based on evidence that is strong enough for a probable opinion but not strong enough to give you absolute certainty. Faith does not mean that you are certain of something for which there is no evidence, but that you are certain of (or adhere firmly to) something for which the evidence is less than fully conclusive. This is not irrational, because faith involves personal trust–for Christians, this means of course trust in Christ but more directly in the Church (I would include the Scriptures as part of the Church), which testifies to us about Christ.

Heres my problem, i cant let go of catholicism i still keep my bible and reconciliation candle by my bedside and i still pray everynight, and for some reason i still try to follow the morals of the church, its wierd. I think theres a very thin line between religion and agnoticism, and at the moment im standing on it.

I would say that I have been standing on that line for years.

I think there is a legitimate place for a kind of “agnosticism” in Christianity. I am an “agnostic” in the sense that I don’t know for sure that Christianity is true. But I choose to put my faith in it.

Edwin

 

[Keikiolu]

…{snip}…

I think there is a legitimate place for a kind of “agnosticism” in Christianity. I am an “agnostic” in the sense that I don’t know for sure that Christianity is true. But I choose to put my faith in it.

Edwin

Read the Fides et Ratio.

…though you probably already have, as you’re a very smart person.

No, I’m NOT being sarcastic. Your brains are self evident.

What do we need to do to “bump you into the Tiber”, DUDE…!!?

 

[Benedictus]

I know what you’re going through. I’ve gone through it too. For me, it all started when I wondered why God was hiding. As I prayed and studied over the years, I realized that there really is no convincing evidence that God exists and even less that this religion or that religion is the correct one.

It’s wasn’t the easiest process to go through, but now I’m becoming a bit more comfortable being an agnostic.

I didn’t used to have trouble with the idea of belief itself, but now I find the idea of belief in something despite a lack of evidence puzzling. Indeed, somehow the virtue associated with faith is supposed to be both proportional to how strongly you believe and inversely proportional to the amount of evidence to support that belief.

Nevertheless, it can be hard to let go of Catholicism. I used to wonder what the deal was with secular Jews–if you don’t really believe, then why self-identify as Jewish? But I think understand a little better now. It’s more than just religion, it’s about things like culture and traditions too.

 

[RedSoxFan]

Im on the verge of agnosticism and i would just like to state some of the reasons why.

Firstly i really dont understand the concept of faith, the more i think about it the harder it is for me to comprehend it. Faith basically states that you believe in something based on absolutely no evidence at all. When you explain to a devout catholic, or protesant or muslim, etc, that you have no faith you will usually get a response along the lines of “well you have to open your heart” or “God wants you to have faith but you refuse to”. This sounds absolutely ridiculous, the reason i dont have faith is because i choose not believe things which i have no proof for.

Heres my problem, i cant let go of catholicism i still keep my bible and reconciliation candle by my bedside and i still pray everynight, and for some reason i still try to follow the morals of the church, its wierd. I think theres a very thin line between religion and agnoticism, and at the moment im standing on it.

Is it wrong to be rational? Will God smite me for my lack of belief in something that cant be proven? I personally dont believe hell anymore. Some people define hell as eternal physical torture and some define it as a dark place without God. My theory on Gods punishment to sinners is probably the greatest punishment of of all, being thrown into non-existance.

No matter what happens to my beliefs i guess i’ll always have a special bond with catholicism for some unexplainable reason.
I would like to hear some thoughts from some agnostics on why they arent actually athiest?

Here is my thinking on it. If you actively search for God and don’t find him then you keep searching. Keep in mind it might be someplace you already looked. I’m convinced it’s the Church. Your not, but you just can’t seem to throw away that bible. I think that says a lot. More perhaps, than you might now think. Back to the point as long as your honestly searching for God it is not my belief that your doomed to hell.
If you left the Church it was because you didn’t know he was there. It would have been total ignorance of his presence there. That’s not an insult. It just is. If you had known you wouldn’t have left, becuase that would be rebellion against God. That’s not what is going on here you don’t know yet that he’s really there. I can’t in good conscience say that your doomed. I think your at a crucial turning point. I’ll pray for you and the others on here who keep on looking. Don’t give up! Good Luck!

 

[Contarini]

I didn’t used to have trouble with the idea of belief itself, but now I find the idea of belief in something despite a lack of evidence puzzling. Indeed, somehow the virtue associated with faith is supposed to be both proportional to how strongly you believe and inversely proportional to the amount of evidence to support that belief.

Supposed by whom?

Edwin

 

[Benedictus]

Supposed by whom?

One example in particular comes to mind:

“Blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed” (John 20:29).

 

[Atreyu]

One example in particular comes to mind:

“Blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed” (John 20:29).

Read what Edwin said on faith again:

Contarini:

According to Aquinas, faith is based on evidence that is strong enough for a probable opinion but not strong enough to give you absolute certainty. Faith does not mean that you are certain of something for which there is no evidence, but that you are certain of (or adhere firmly to) something for which the evidence is less than fully conclusive.

Saint Thomas has seen and so believes. This means that he knows with absolute certainty that his faith is true. All Jesus is saying above is that those who do not have the absolute certainty that Saint Thomas has, but still believe, are blessed. I don’t think Jesus would promote blind faith in anything…

 

[puzzleannie]

Im. Faith basically states that you believe in something based on absolutely no evidence at all. ?

no it does not
it requires a response through the use of reason to evidence of eyewitnesses and generations of saints, and to the Truth about God as revealed by God, fully and completely in the Person of Jesus Christ.

If you have the feeling that you have “lost God” try doing what I do when I lose my cellphone. first go back to where you last remember seeing it, and if you still can’t find it, call the number from where you are now, then LISTEN.

 

[cyberjacques]

Even outside of religion, very much of what we “know” to be true is actually based on faith. Have you ever seen an electron? No, but you know it to exist because a scientist told you so, and the scientist has faith in his equipment, and his math and observations (which most people can’t know because of their backgrounds).

Religious faith is rational in the same sense as scientific faith. And we are called as Catholics to use reason to enhance our faith.

…

So look at the world. Look at the beauty in creation. What evidence!! Have faith that it WAS created, and has a purpose. Then continue to pray, and act as dictated by your conscience, in conjunction with church teachings.

Beautifully said, my friend! I would add that science and religion have something else in common: an unquenchable thirst for more understanding. Behind every scientific discovery is a mind that went looking for an answer. Scientists don’t just go down to the store and pick up a pound of discovery. They have a question, and they actively search for the answer. Faith is no different. Any religious person who tells you they have all the answers is probably trying to lure you into some cult. Someone who understands their faith will acknowledge that we don’t have all the answers yet. We have a lot of them, even some of the most important ones, but we’re still learning.

Obviously you DO have faith. You’ve just been convinced that your faith is in conflict with your reason, while in fact it isn’t.

I think Keikiolu is right. Blind faith isn’t the only kind. There’s also informed faith. Take a look at the world around you, and you’ll find God’s fingerprints everywhere. The more science discovers about this amazing universe, the more the data supports the existence of God. I recommend a book, The Science of God, by Gerald L. Schroeder. This might help you with your reason vs. faith dillema.

Please pardon my conversion story, I’ll try to make it as brief as possible. I was agnostic for the first 23 years of my life. I considered myself a reasonable and intelligent person, and I still do. What changed in me that eventually led me to the Catholic church? God awoke in me a hunger to not only understand HOW things work, but WHY they work. That’s the best way I can describe it. I wanted to understand how the function of the universe was connected to the reason for it being here. Because I suddenly became acutely aware that EVERYTHING happens for a reason. I wanted to know that reason.

And believe me, Christianity was far from my first stop. I investigated every religion and spiritual belief system known to man. I had been biased against Christianity for so long that I didn’t even consider it an option. But eventually I ran out of things to explore, and I still had no answers. And even then, I was pretty much dragged kicking and screaming into my investigation of Christianity. I thank God rather frequently for being so patient with me during that time. He kept showing me things, and I kept turning my head, unwilling to see them. I was still searching, but I was stuck in the misconception that the idea of a god was irrational. Believe me, God is gentle, but FIRM. I eventually came to the point where I could no longer rationally argue against the existence of God as Christians understand Him.

The evidence was shown to me because I began searching. It’s really as simple as that. Melbourne Guy, I think you’ve stopped searching. I don’t presume to know why, but you’ve lost your desire to understand God. Luckily for us, God is nothing if not patient. He has all the time in the world and He won’t hide from you. The fact that this is torturing you means that He is still calling you, but you’re resisting. Right before I came to believe, I was in spiritual agony. God had been calling me for more than a year, and He was getting louder and louder. I never thought that such a gentle, loving whisper could be so deafening.

Start searching again, and do it with a pure heart. You’ll find your evidence, and your faith.

God bless

 

[Aleii]

"melbourne_guy:

…i cant let go of catholicism i still keep my bible and reconciliation candle by my bedside and i still pray everynight, and for some reason i still try to follow the morals of the church, its wierd. I think theres a very thin line between religion and agnoticism, and at the moment im standing on it.

No matter what happens to my beliefs i guess i’ll always have a special bond with catholicism for some unexplainable reason.
I would like to hear some thoughts from some agnostics on why they arent actually athiest?

For me, I grew up devout Catholic. I think this is a big part on why it took me over a decade of fighting to stay Catholic before I could call myself agnostic, and, why the religion still permeates my thoughts here and there. When you grow up with it, its all you know, and when its a part of your everyday life, its not going to go away just like that. Some of it is habit, some of it you have learned to rely upon. Having religion is not a bad thing, it just is. It is difficult enough to find your fit in the physical place in this world, let alone spiritual. Keep researching all sides, keep an open mind, and see where it takes you.

I can not call myself atheist because to me, there is a possibility that there is a creator who is just very uninvolved in this world. You can not prove that there is a God but you also can not prove that there is not a God. Expanding on that, there are questions that science has not been able to fully answer, so until something more definitive comes along, there are several possible answers to the major questions of life, including God. To be honest, some of my reasons for agnosticism (vs atheism), and, some of my holding onto Catholicism is due in part to emotions. Its hard to think that life means nothing, and see the injustices that take place for naught.

Faith in anything is based on evidence. But not on complete, overwhelming, “I know this to be true personally” sort of evidence.

Even outside of religion, very much of what we “know” to be true is actually based on faith. Have you ever seen an electron? No, but you know it to exist because a scientist told you so, and the scientist has faith in his equipment, and his math and observations (which most people can’t know because of their backgrounds).

Religious faith is rational in the same sense as scientific faith. And we are called as Catholics to use reason to enhance our faith.

But it does differ. People can trust doctors because doctors have to go through years of school, clinical, and tests to become a doctor. But of course humans make mistakes. So if I go to my doctor and my doctor gives me Wellbutrin for smoking cessation, and I know that my friend got Wellbutrin for depression, I don’t have to just rely on faith in my doctor. I can research the medication myself and find that that drug is also considered an effective smoking cessation aid. Or, I can talk to my doctor and ask questions to learn why Wellbutrin would be beneficial for smoking, or, I can go to another doctor for a second opinion, or talk to a pharmacist about the pharmacology. I don’t have to go by faith alone that humans have an appendix. I can enroll in an anatomy and physiology course and put my hands in an actual cadaver and hold the appendix in my hands. While science, math, and physics is complicated, there is nothing stopping me from involving myself enough in the topic to ask, research, see, and fully understand the answers for myself. (I know there are further philosophical questions that can come from this, such as how do you know your eyes work, and how do you know you are not in the Matrix, but just on a basic level I can obtain a fundamental understanding of a science question if I so desire.) If I have a faith question, I can go to my priest, a retreat, the Bible, pray, but I may not get the answers I am searching for, especially if the first 3 tell me to pray, and after prayers I get silence.

The Catholic position on Hell is that it is a voluntary (by you) separation from God. If you spend your life using your free will to separate yourself from God, then after death, God allows you to keep that status.

its not as simple as 2 options presented to you on paper, A: eternity with a loving God B:eternal torment and despair away from a loving God. Many agnostics (most people in general) feel that they are doing their best to try to find the truth.

…But one thing she noticed was that most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is actually a hell.

I can not flip a switch in my mind to chose to believe that a cat is really a blueberry, nor that scientology is truth, nor that hell exists, if I can’t rationally come to that conclusion. It does not make sense that I may be tormented for an eternity for a finite ‘mistake’ during a tiny blip of time on this earth.

 

[Aleii]

melbourne_guy, to exapand on your question of why agnostic instead of atheism, maybe this will give you more clarity: a mentor years ago said it to me simply: You have qualms with religion, not with God. God is not necessarily how Catholics, or any other religion defines Him.

 

[Sr_Sally]

no it does not
it requires a response through the use of reason to evidence of eyewitnesses and generations of saints, and to the Truth about God as revealed by God, fully and completely in the Person of Jesus Christ.

If you have the feeling that you have “lost God” try doing what I do when I lose my cellphone. first go back to where you last remember seeing it, and if you still can’t find it, call the number from where you are now, then LISTEN.

Always such good advice!

 

[notself]

Aleii; its not as simple as 2 options presented to you on paper, A: eternity with a loving God B:eternal torment and despair away from a loving God. Many agnostics (most people in general) feel that they are doing their best to try to find the truth.

I can not flip a switch in my mind to chose to believe that a cat is really a blueberry, nor that scientology is truth, nor that hell exists, if I can’t rationally come to that conclusion. It does not make sense that I may be tormented for an eternity for a finite ‘mistake’ during a tiny blip of time on this earth,

Excellent well thought out post. Thank you.