Agnus Dei/Prince of Peace/Lord of Lords?

[AlexV]

No, we wouldn’t be “doing our own thing”, we’d be celebrating the liturgy, which is our right and patrimony.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Rebel?

Disobey?

Split the congregation?

Write to Rome?

Your choice, I would think.

As for me, I have read too many wonderful lives of saints and Doctors of the Church, who by their example, directly obeyed their lawful superiors, even when a command from them directly contradicted guidance from Jesus Himself. He told them they did right to obey.

We in the congregation are permitted to question and/or write to a higher authority, but never to do our own thing in the meanwhile, especially in a matter that is not of the essence of liturgy, such as singing our own version of the Lamb of God. This mentally and possibly pridefully attempts to point fingers at those we consider reprobate. Is this what God would want of us? Honestly?

A couple of thoughts while reading your post. First, since when is the choir directors the laity’s lawful superiors?

Second, the irony is that those tweaking the Liturgy are the ones that aren’t obeying their lawful superiors. One just has to read the documents from Vatican II and realize that the Mass they gave us, is not the Mass we are getting.

 

[Joysong]

A couple of thoughts while reading your post. First, since when is the choir directors the laity’s lawful superiors?

And your peaceful solution is … ?

You no doubt see it as everyone in the pews rebelling and each person having a ‘right’ to do it according to their separate ideas of perfection. Lovely effort at unity in worship, I would say.

[Edited by Moderator]

Or recognize that this is not your accountability to change things by either method above. The responsibility of the laity, if they are not in the position of authority over that liturgy, is to worship God in the best way they can until God, through His lawful representatives, sees fit to change it.

[Edited by Moderator]

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

However, because the document is very flawed and does not have the recognitio from Rome (the bishops failed to adopt it by the necessary 2/3 majority), it does not carry the force of law. There are many holes in this document that bear strong indications that, perhaps if Rome had reviewed it, the piece would have been rejected.

Who has the authority to decide that it is flawed? Have any bishops said so? Has the Vatican? Do YOU have the education and knowledge and authority to make such a declaration? If Rome has problems with it, they will reject it - without it being submitted for approval. They could order the document struck down at any time.

The Constitution for Sacred Liturgy, promulgated by the Second Vatican Council, indicates that no musical instruments that have a secular use should be employed for the Mass, this included percussion (drums). Francis Cardinal Arinze, as late as last year, affirmed this declaration. Yet, the USCCB document makes provisions for it.

Everyone loves to quote Cardinal Arinze, often quoting things he says in private or “off the cuff” and probably never intends to become "law’. Cardinal Arinze’s words, interestingly enough, have even less of a force of law than this document approved by a bishops conference of a particular country after having been reviewed and voted upon.

By the way - we COULD start quoting Roger Cardinal Mahoney on liturgy; his words are equal to the private utterances of Cardinal Arinze.

The document showed great promise in the initial powerpoint presentation, but the National Pastoral Musicians Association and the Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions hijacked the whole thing and the end result pretty much takes us back to square one in many areas of sacred music.

NPM and the DLC have a very legitmate voice in this process. The bishops obviously cared what they had to say.

I personally do not like the Agnus Dei setting from the Mass of Creation. One of the Spanish versions touted by OCP runs all three invocations together when they are supposed to be separate and distinct. When I am at Mass and have to endure either Haugen’s piece or the Spanish setting, I resort to just reciting the Agnus Dei to myself in Latin.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

1. Why can you “assume that it does not run afoul of the law” when it actually does.
2. We MUST disregard the statements of a local ordinary (not the magisterium and not when a bishop is writing for any of the sacred congregations) when they are in conflict with specific instruction from Rome.

EX: a bishop states that people must stand until all have received holy communion. Rome has already said you may sit or kneel after receiving. The statement from the bishop is contradictory to Rome. You may absolutely disregard anything from a bishop that contradicts Rome, and, as you can see from the GIRM and Redemptionis Sac. that it is simply not allowed and has never been allowed and continues to be not allowed. And that bishop saying that it IS allowed is either ignorance (in which case he should be removed) or simply arrogant defiance of Rome. (in which case he should ALSO be removed). THESE GUYS GET PAID TO TEACH US THE TRUTH!! IF THEY DON"T KNOW IT, THEY HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO RESEARCH IT AND FIND OUT THE TRUTH BEFORE THEY ISSUE A PUBLIC STATEMENT.

Fact is, this is arrogant defiance. He doesn’t CARE what the truth is and he spews out whatever he feels like spewing until he gets caught. That’s how the abuses have escalated to this point. Everybody thought that what we were getting from our priests and bishops was the truth and no one took the time to check it out. Dissident priests and bishops have now filled the pews with people who think anything goes, and they’ve convinced themselves of the same. USCCB INCLUDED!

To be brutally honest, this post sounds like the rantings and crazed utterances of one who will break off from the Church anyday and elect a “true pope”, who will probably be from Montanna or Idaho.

By the way, do you have even the most basic training of how to read and interpret Redemptoris Sacramentum? Here’s a hint: what it appears to be saying in “plain English” is often not what it’s saying at all.

 

[THurifer2]

By the way, do you have even the most basic training of how to read and interpret Redemptoris Sacramentum?

By the way, if you are going to get in someones face about somthing please make sure you know what you are talking about…

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

PaixGioiaAmor;3123189:

By the way, do you have even the most basic training of how to read and interpret Redemptoris Sacramentum?

By the way, if you are going to get in someones face about somthing please make sure you know what you are talking about…

Sacramentum…Not Redemptoris Sacramentum…Also I hope you are joking when you are implying that a document written by an English speaking cardinal may be hard to interpret?

You are correct on the name - chalk my mistake up the fact that I’m sitting on the internet not paying that close attention to what I’m doing after working an insane amount of hours the past two days.

As for it being written by an English speaking cardinal - the laws of the United States tax code are written by english speakers as well. Care to read and interpret those without any legal training?

 

[AlexV]

A major reason for the collapse of the liturgy in recent years has been the so-called obedience card.

Father says to do something, therefore we must do it, and those who resist or “rebel” are suddenly the problem, not those who mucked around with the liturgy in the first place.

Catholics have a right to their liturgy, which they possess. The liturgy is not the choir director’s plaything to which the congregation…sorry…audience…is a captive prisoner.

And, usually, when there is resistance to this sort of tyranny the answer is “You’re ignorant and not qualified to make these judgments.”

It’s downright Orwellian. And it neatly absolves the ones who are actually mucking around with the liturgy from any blame…it gets shifted onto those who simply want THEIR LITURGY, without modification and mucking.

 

[THurifer2]

I have read the document at least a dozen times there is nothing to interpret…I assure you Cdl Arinze is flat out a very simple read…he calls a duck, a duck. The document was written for all Catholics. Have you Read it?

And I just love the man.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

A major reason for the collapse of the liturgy in recent years has been the so-called obedience card.

Father says to do something, therefore we must do it, and those who resist or “rebel” are suddenly the problem, not those who mucked around with the liturgy in the first place.

Catholics have a right to their liturgy, which they possess. The liturgy is not the choir director’s plaything to which the congregation…sorry…audience…is a captive prisoner.

And, usually, when there is resistance to this sort of tyranny the answer is “You’re ignorant and not qualified to make these judgments.”

It’s downright Orwellian. And it neatly absolves the ones who are actually mucking around with the liturgy from any blame…it gets shifted onto those who simply want THEIR LITURGY, without modification and mucking.

OK, but what qualification DO you have to make judgements on the liturgy?

It’s a legitamate question.

 

[THurifer2]

OK, but what qualification DO you have to make judgements on the liturgy?

It’s a legitamate question.

Alex V is not someone to debate with…You will lose

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I have read the document at least a dozen times there is nothing to interpret…I assure you Cdl Arinze is flat out a very simple read…he calls a duck, a duck.

And I just love the man.

Of course he does - using the terminology of the ducks.

For example: in canon law and liturgy documents “particular church” means “diocese”. Now plenty of people would read a statement with those words in it and say “It is VERY clear in plain english: it says such and such may be done in any particular church, meaning St. Mary’s in Indianapolis.” They would have no clue what the term means in context.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Alex V is not someone to debate with…You will lose

Good threat, but my question stands.

 

[AlexV]

I have a doctorate in classical languages and am considered qualified enough to read Latin, for starters, that my local tribunal calls me up and has to pay me to translate annullment documents into English for them because nobody else in the diocese seems either able and/or willing to do it.

I have served as a liturgical master of ceremonies in both forms of the Roman Rite at the cathedral level.

I can read a rubric. When Father told me in one parish that blue had been permitted for Advent, I was certainly able to tell him sorry, nope, it’s not, the color blue is not allowed.

He stuck with violet.

 

[THurifer2]

Of course he does - using the terminology of the ducks.

For example: in canon law and liturgy documents “particular church” means “diocese”. Now plenty of people would read a statement with those words in it and say “It is VERY clear in plain english: it says such and such may be done in any particular church, meaning St. Mary’s in Indianapolis.” They would have no clue what the term means in context.

Redemptionis Sacramentum was written to the Faithful it is NOT canon law…somthing of which would require more than a weekend seminar to study.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Redemptionis Sacramentum was written to the Faithful it is NOT canon law…somthing of which would require more than a weekend seminar to study.

I’m not sure who you are speaking to since my training exceeds this.

By the way, you have been corrected each and every single time you bring this up - and each time you slink away, not to be heard from again on the topic until it is expedient for you to bring it up.

 

[AlexV]

Remember, too, the church does not employ “secret rubrics” that only the privileged few are aware of.

Permissions and indults are published PUBLICALLY in Notitiae, for starters. If a bishop has received permission to do something out of the ordinary in his territory, it gets published. So too does the list of things that are allowed to be modified on the diocesan and parish level.

That list is relatively short.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I have a doctorate in classical languages and am considered qualified enough to read Latin, for starters, that my local tribunal calls me up and has to pay me to translate annullment documents into English for them because nobody else in the diocese seems either able and/or willing to do it.

I have served as a liturgical master of ceremonies in both forms of the Roman Rite at the cathedral level.

I can read a rubric. When Father told me in one parish that blue had been permitted for Advent, I was certainly able to tell him sorry, nope, it’s not, the color blue is not allowed.

He stuck with violet.

So assuming from your background that you can and do interpret liturgical documents correctly, what exactly is your proposed solution?

You originally say that the so-called “obedience card” has been the problem; to some degree, I agree with you completely. But I also can’t help but notice that on some of these things, Rome has been slow to directly correct things. Have they been deficient in this area? Perhaps.

All that is clear to me is that there is always more than meets the eye - especially in matters of liturgy.

Certainly the answer is not for everyday “armchair” Catholics to begin “interpreting” documents and than doing their own thing at Sunday mass. I would hope you would agree with that.

 

[THurifer2]

I’m not sure who you are speaking to since my training exceeds this.

By the way, you have been corrected each and every single time you bring this up - and each time you slink away, not to be heard from again on the topic until it is expedient for you to bring it up.

I’m sorry…was it more than one weekend?

 

[AlexV]

I remember well one Sunday Mass at a college chapel.

The bishop came. He “presided”. Novus Ordo Missae.

At the beginning of the Canon, he said, “Let us stand and show by our unified posture that we are a Resurrection people.”

Nobody stood. Well, okay, maybe a few…perhaps twenty out of over 200. Everyone else knelt after the Sanctus and stayed kneeling.

His Excellency paused. He then said, “We stand to show we are an Easter people, and Alleluia is our song. Let us stand and celebrate our prayer of Eucharistic thanksgiving.”

Nobody stood.

Finally, he said, “Father, you are holy indeed…” and continued the Eucharistic Prayer.

The people spoke. The liturgy called for them to kneel, and kneel they did. Eventually, the [edited by Moderator] gave up. He knew he wouldn’t win.