Agnus Dei - Text changed in an English version - Need advice please

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Sarabande

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Background: I cantor for two parishes. About once a month, I volunteer cantor for my home parish. I also have a paid position as a cantor at another parish downtown which I do almost every weekend and somtimes two or three times a weekend if I need to cover for another cantor or if I switched dates, etc.

Anyway, I never have problems with the liturgical music and the mass parts at the parish that is my paid position. The music director follows the rubrics pretty well, especially since our diocese’s director of liturgy and music lives there and he is very orthodox, which is great.

For my home parish, though, I just got the music for the mass parts for the Advent season and I’m a little troubled by change of text in the Agnus Dei. I know from my other position and speaking with my director, we are not supposed to be using the optional texts for the Lamb of God. For this mass setting, there isn’t even a “Lamb of God” choice. They only have:
“Jesus, wisdom and mighty Lord,”
“Jesus, true branch of Jesse’s tree”
“Key of David and Dayspring from on high” etc.

I can’t in good concience, sing these as a cantor, especially when I now know it isn’t correct to sing these text, and know that if they tried to pull this in front of our diocese of director of liturgy, they’d be told to not use it again. I need advice on how I can bring this up to this director, who I don’t know too well, although I do know he keeps up on his reading of the rules, so I’m surprised he is using this text change. Also, can someone please point out the specific document that state the prohibition of changing the text? I can’t remember what it was, but do remember seeing it once.

Thank you in advance!!! 🙂
 
I would suggest that you just casually mention it to him sorta like this - let’s call him Bill:

You: Hi Bill, hey, I was looking at the new Mass parts for Advent, and I thought that we weren’t able to change the words of the Agnus Dei. Did that change recently?

Bill: ___insert wishywashy answer (just for the sake of example)

You: Hmm - well, I’m sure I’ve seen this restriction somewhere. I’ll take a look for the document and we can talk about it again. I certainly would not want to do something that is not correct.

Or something like that. 😃

(Can you tell I just sat through two hours of grueling training videos for work? ugh… )

Anyway - hope this helps. I think you need to confront him about it, not in a confrontational way, but it needs to be addressed before Advent to be sure.

You are right - I’ve seen it documented somewhere - hopefully someone here can post a link to the document we are thinking of.

~Liza
 
I have a hard copy of something posted on these forums a couple of years ago indicating how this little abuse got started. I’ll try to find it and type it out for you. Til then, Redemptionis Sacramentum clearly states that one is not to mess with the words of the Mass.

But I’ll bet that whoever picked this out will justify it on the grounds that the strophes are based on the Great O Antiphons of Advent . . . Not that that makes it right.
 
Thank you both!!! 🙂 I’m cantoring the mass this Saturday and just got the music, so I need to bring this up to him prior to Saturday.

Mercygate - I’ll look it up in the Redemptionis Sacramentum.

Liza - You are right… I definitely do not want to be confrontational about it, but I have a feeling that I’ll get some sort of excuse where I’ll have to bring up the document. I don’t want to look like some sort of know-it-all. And he knows about my position down at the other parish, so I don’t want him to think that I would consider reporting him to the Director of Liturgy. Sometimes these music directors can sometimes be overly sensitive and protective. I’m not even considering that, but since he doesn’t know me well, he could assume that I would do that.
 
Oh… one more question: Does anyone know if we are allowed to change the words for the Intercessions? Another thing we have to sing is “Come quickly, Lord, in mercy come” for the General Intercessions instead “Lord Hear Our Prayer.” I’ve heard variations before, but I never questioned prior to this.

Thanks!
 
I promise this is my last question - If the director insists on still doing the Agnus Dei with those variations on the text, should I just grin and bear it? Would I be giving the wrong impression to the congregants that I condone this since I am a cantor? I know that in the grand scheme of things this isn’t so horrible, but would it be imprudent of me to give that impression?
 
Sarabande said:
Oh… one more question: Does anyone know if we are allowed to change the words for the Intercessions? Another thing we have to sing is “Come quickly, Lord, in mercy come” for the General Intercessions instead “Lord Hear Our Prayer.” I’ve heard variations before, but I never questioned prior to this.

Thanks!
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I think there’s a lot of flexibility in the responses to the General Intercessions. I don’t think you need to worry about this one.
 
Sarabande said:
I promise this is my last question - If the director insists on still doing the Agnus Dei with those variations on the text, should I just grin and bear it? Would I be giving the wrong impression to the congregants that I condone this since I am a cantor? I know that in the grand scheme of things this isn’t so horrible, but would it be imprudent of me to give that impression?
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I would ask your music director for his support of your decision to obey the teachings of the Church in this matter. If he is unfamiliar with it, show him the relevant text from Redemptionis Sacramentum, which states that the faithful have the right to proper celebration of the liturgy:

[58.] All of Christ’s faithful likewise have the right to a celebration of the Eucharist that has been so carefully prepared in all its parts that the word of God is properly and efficaciously proclaimed and explained in it; that the faculty for selecting the liturgical texts and rites is carried out with care according to the norms; and that their faith is duly safeguarded and nourished by the words that are sung in the celebration of the Liturgy.

[59.] The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy.

Our bishop (Joseph Martino, Diocese of Scranton) wrote an extensive letter to all pastors in our diocese a few years ago on proper celebration of the liturgy. You can find it at http://www.dioceseofscranton.org/Bishop’s%20Pastoral%20Letters/LiturgyInstruction2005.asp . He specifically mentions the “Lamb of God” problem:

“During the breaking of the bread, the *Lamb of God *is sung. In the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, no provision is made for substituting other titles for Lamb of God, such as *King of Kings *or Lord of Lords. Therefore, the *Agnus Dei *may be repeated as many times as necessary, but with the proper invocation.”
 
Thanks PhilotheaZ!!! 👍

I’m very familiar with the Diocese of Scranton. I spent half my childhood in upstate PA attending mass in a little country church in the Endless Mountains whenever we were up there. I still go there when I have a weekend off, although I don’t know the state of that church right now. They were going to close it, but I believe they were able to work something out so that they can still use it for holy days and special masses. It was always well-attended. No one up there knows why they would have wanted to close it. But that’s for a different thread.
 
Sarabande said:
Background: I cantor for two parishes. About once a month, I volunteer cantor for my home parish. I also have a paid position as a cantor at another parish downtown which I do almost every weekend and somtimes two or three times a weekend if I need to cover for another cantor or if I switched dates, etc.

Anyway, I never have problems with the liturgical music and the mass parts at the parish that is my paid position. The music director follows the rubrics pretty well, especially since our diocese’s director of liturgy and music lives there and he is very orthodox, which is great.

For my home parish, though, I just got the music for the mass parts for the Advent season and I’m a little troubled by change of text in the Agnus Dei. I know from my other position and speaking with my director, we are not supposed to be using the optional texts for the Lamb of God. For this mass setting, there isn’t even a “Lamb of God” choice. They only have:
“Jesus, wisdom and mighty Lord,”
“Jesus, true branch of Jesse’s tree”
“Key of David and Dayspring from on high” etc.

I can’t in good concience, sing these as a cantor, especially when I now know it isn’t correct to sing these text, and know that if they tried to pull this in front of our diocese of director of liturgy, they’d be told to not use it again. I need advice on how I can bring this up to this director, who I don’t know too well, although I do know he keeps up on his reading of the rules, so I’m surprised he is using this text change. Also, can someone please point out the specific document that state the prohibition of changing the text? I can’t remember what it was, but do remember seeing it once.

Thank you in advance!!! 🙂
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Ah. Yes. “Missa Emmanuel”. The final straw in me leaving a parish one year ago this coming Sunday.

They were going over the “Mass Setting” before Mass and when the got to this, I got up and walked right out past the priest as he getting ready for the processional.

When I turned in my letter saying that I was switching parishes, this was the final reason I gave.
 
WanderAimlessly said:
Ah. Yes. “Missa Emmanuel”. The final straw in me leaving a parish one year ago this coming Sunday.

They were going over the “Mass Setting” before Mass and when the got to this, I got up and walked right out past the priest as he getting ready for the processional.

When I turned in my letter saying that I was switching parishes, this was the final reason I gave.
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My husband and I are actually planning on asking for permission to become parishioners at our diocese cathedral as we have been attending mass there for the past 6 or 7 years (since college), got married there and were/are involved in the music program there. (That’s the other parish where I have the cantor position). I don’t want to leave the other cantors here in my home parish in a lurch, so that is why I’m still cantoring here. But the cathedral is really where we are all the time almost every Sunday and holy day. It’s our “home”. It just makes more sense to be parishioners there and supporting that parish as it is very small and doesn’t have much - despite the fact that it is a cathedral. I have already spoken to my pastor at the cathedral and he told me it shouldn’t be too difficult to ask for permission. I am waiting until after Christmas and have fulfilled my cantor obligations at the home parish before I make the letter up. I feel a little bad about leaving my home parish and it is has actually taken me about 4 years since our marriage to even ask about switching parishes.
 
PhilotheaZ said:
Our bishop (Joseph Martino, Diocese of Scranton) wrote an extensive letter to all pastors in our diocese a few years ago on proper celebration of the liturgy. You can find it at http://www.dioceseofscranton.org/Bishop’s%20Pastoral%20Letters/LiturgyInstruction2005.asp . He specifically mentions the “Lamb of God” problem:
“During the breaking of the bread, the *Lamb of God *is sung. In the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, no provision is made for substituting other titles for Lamb of God, such as *King of Kings *or Lord of Lords. Therefore, the *Agnus Dei *may be repeated as many times as necessary, but with the proper invocation.”
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Good to see Bishop Martino doing something about that. Wonder of has done anything about a certain parish there that uses the same Responsorial Psalm every Sunday 🤷
 
Sarabande said:
I feel a little bad about leaving my home parish and it is has actually taken me about 4 years since our marriage to even ask about switching parishes.
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I have not been in the Detroit are long enough to get too attached to a parish. I have switch 2 time in the 2.5 years since I been here. The last time was about 2 weeks ago. It was not because of any “liturgical abuse” the 2nd time, it was because I was spending more time a my new parish and I am involved in a Confraternity there.

There is no problem with the Agnus Dei there since most of the time it is in Latin and using Chant.
 
P.S. I sent an email to my director about the Agnus Dei. I’m waiting for a reply. I just asked if we were going to use “Lamb of God” instead of the substitutes. Keep your fingers crossed that he says “yes”. Otherwise, I will have to kindly refer him to the Redemptionis Sacramentum text.

I don’t want to get into any kind of verbal altercation or power struggle, which I’m sure I won’t because I try to avoid any kind of fight like the plague by being as diplomatic as possible. It just always scares me that something like that can happen.
 
Sarabande said:
P.S. I sent an email to my director about the Agnus Dei. I’m waiting for a reply. I just asked if we were going to use “Lamb of God” instead of the substitutes. Keep your fingers crossed that he says “yes”. Otherwise, I will have to kindly refer him to the Redemptionis Sacramentum text.

I don’t want to get into any kind of verbal altercation or power struggle, which I’m sure I won’t because I try to avoid any kind of fight like the plague by being as diplomatic as possible. It just always scares me that something like that can happen.
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Unfortunately, sometimes confrontation is the only way things will get done. 😦
 
Sarabande said:
Oh… one more question: Does anyone know if we are allowed to change the words for the Intercessions? Another thing we have to sing is “Come quickly, Lord, in mercy come” for the General Intercessions instead “Lord Hear Our Prayer.” I’ve heard variations before, but I never questioned prior to this.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Guessing here but I don’t think this is a problem because these are not part of the Ordinary or Propers of the Mass. Don’t take my word for it. But we write our own intercessions all the time. We don’t always respond: Lord, hear our prayer.
 
Sarabande said:
I promise this is my last question - If the director insists on still doing the Agnus Dei with those variations on the text, should I just grin and bear it? Would I be giving the wrong impression to the congregants that I condone this since I am a cantor? I know that in the grand scheme of things this isn’t so horrible, but would it be imprudent of me to give that impression?
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Can you put it on a personal level? I know a cantor who has simply asked that in deference to her own personal desire to play by the rules, she not be required to violate them. She always does the Agnus Dei “straight up.” If you can show the documentation and you can ask to be ‘humored’ on this, it puts it in a more amiable light than just digging in your heels. I think you’ve got this one locked up. Let us know how it goes.
 
Sarabande said:
I sent an email to my director about the Agnus Dei. I’m waiting for a reply. I just asked if we were going to use “Lamb of God” instead of the substitutes. Keep your fingers crossed that he says “yes”. Otherwise, I will have to kindly refer him to the Redemptionis Sacramentum text.
Click to expand...
If you have time to do a bit of light reading, I suggest the following articles from the periodical Adoremus.
 
The links in japhy’s post led me to a more specific prohibition from the General Instruction on the Roman Missal (GIRM):
  1. It is not permitted to substitute other chants for those found in the Order of Mass, such as at the Agnus Dei.
I guess it doesn’t get much clearer than that.
 
PhilotheaZ said:
The links in japhy’s post led me to a more specific prohibition from the General Instruction on the Roman Missal (GIRM):
  1. It is not permitted to substitute other chants for those found in the Order of Mass, such as at the Agnus Dei.
I guess it doesn’t get much clearer than that.
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Amen to that! Sarabande, you can also be a conscientious objector. In good conscience, you cannot do something that is against liturgical rule.

I just don’t understand why publishing houses are not being more vigiliant when it comes to the music they issue. They publish stuff that sometimes goes contrary to the GIRM and RS, let alone the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy.

I remember having to cantor for the Feast of the Assumption. When it came to the Agnus Dei, I told the musician helping me that if we were going to use Marty Haugen’s Mass of Creation, we needed to stick with Lamb of God and not the additional stuff Haugen puts into it. I told her that this stuff was not allowable. The argument was, “Well, that’s how it is written.” I showed her the document and I told her, “We follow what the Church has written, not what Haugen has written.” After a while, it made sense to her.

Stick to your guns, Sarabande. Sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest thing to do. But, you are following your conscience.
 
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