Agree or disagree?

[PJM]

Friends, I’m hoping we can have a Christian debate of the bible.

Do you agree or disagree with the following statement, and why or why not?

Personal interpation of the Bible is precisely the same as writting ones own Bible. It is replacing God’s Divinely Inspired Words, in the manner one wishes to understand them, too often to avoid what is clearly spoken by the Inspired authors.

2 Tim. 3: 16 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

Love and prayers Brothers and Sisters,

 

[Newbie2]

I would disagree, as I think the statement goes too far.

Scripture is certainly useful for teaching and such, but also for personal reflection. Often times, I’ve read a passage and have gotten something useful out of it even out of it’s contextual meaning. For example, the Psalms, or the Wisdom writings…even the Gospel writings.

I think that the statement could apply to using scripture for teaching, though.

 

[BrianH]

Disagree.
The verse from Peter is stating that scripture does not come from people’s own interpretation but prophecy from God.
The key is the last verse.

2Pe 1:21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

That would mean we are equating correct interpretation with prophecy in verse 21 if that is what the passage is saying.

So how much of the Bible has been interpreted by the Catholic Church? I would say that parts that have been interpreted by the Catholic Church would be required to not have a personal interpretation…but those parts that have not been officially interpreted would be open as long as your interpretation would not interfere or contradict official teachings in other areas.

 

[Newbie2]

Disagree.
The verse from Peter is stating that scripture does not come from people’s own interpretation but prophecy from God.
The key is the last verse.

That would mean we are equating correct interpretation with prophecy in verse 21 if that is what the passage is saying.

So how much of the Bible has been interpreted by the Catholic Church? I would say that parts that have been interpreted by the Catholic Church would be required to not have a personal interpretation…but those parts that have not been officially interpreted would be open as long as your interpretation would not interfere or contradict official teachings in other areas.

That’s a good point. The Psalms, for example, are poetry. In a sense, they’ve been interpreted by the CC in their historical and contextual content. But when a person is reading poetry, their response to it is entirely personal, IMHO.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Friends, I’m hoping we can have a Christian debate of the bible.

Do you agree or disagree with the following statement, and why or why not?

Personal interpation of the Bible is precisely the same as writting ones own Bible. It is replacing God’s Divinely Inspired Words, in the manner one wishes to understand them, too often to avoid what is clearly spoken by the Inspired authors.

2 Tim. 3: 16 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

Love and prayers Brothers and Sisters,

I completely agree!

 

[PJM]

That’s a good point. The Psalms, for example, are poetry. In a sense, they’ve been interpreted by the CC in their historical and contextual content. But when a person is reading poetry, their response to it is entirely personal, IMHO.

This is the Caholic understanding of the 2 Peter quote, taken from "Haydocks Catholic Comentary"

Ver. 21. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time. This is to shew that they are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment, because every part of the holy Scriptures is delivered to us by the divine spirit of God, wherewith the men were inspired who wrote them; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the spirit of God, which he left, and promised to his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Our adversaries may perhaps tell us, that we also interpret prophecies and Scriptures; we do so; but we do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, they without it.

Interpetations not in accord with this make the case that I am presenting.

Love and prayers,

 

[2nd_Adam]

This is the Caholic understanding of the 2 Peter quote, taken from "Haydocks Catholic Comentary"

Ver. 21. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time. This is to shew that they are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment, because every part of the holy Scriptures is delivered to us by the divine spirit of God, wherewith the men were inspired who wrote them; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the spirit of God, which he left, and promised to his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Our adversaries may perhaps tell us, that we also interpret prophecies and Scriptures; we do so; but we do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, they without it.

Interpetations not in accord with this make the case that I am presenting.

Love and prayers,

I partially agree with that commentary. The Spirit of God is needed to illuminate the Scriptures for the correct interpertation. However, when the Cathoilc Chuch has a different intepertation than a Protestant Church… both Christian communities will claim that the Spirit of God illuminated their particular interpertation of the Scriptures. Just because a particular branch of Christianity claims that the Spirit works exclusively through that Church, does not make it true. That is one of the central issues of the Protestant Reformation: The Magestrieum verses Sola Scriptura. Of course, we also have a different understanding and definition of the church. Maybe you are really trying to debate Apostolic Succession?

 

[PJM]

=2nd Adam;5737018]I partially agree with that commentary. The Spirit of God is needed to illuminate the Scriptures for the correct interpertation. However, when the Cathoilc Chuch has a different intepertation than a Protestant Church… both Christian communities will claim that the Spirit of God illuminated their particular interpertation of the Scriptures. Just because a particular branch of Christianity claims that the Spirit works exclusively through a that Church, does not make it true. That is one of the central issues of the Protestant Reformation: The Magestrieum verses Sola Scriptura. Of course, we also have a different understanding and definition of the church.

Very true, but consider these facts and ask yourself where the truth lies accoring, NOT to Catholics, but the very word of God.

The Bible was completed by the end of the First Century, and a Canon set by the Fourth Centry.

From the day Christ died, “A.D.” until the first non-Catholic schism and the beganing of Protestism was nearly 1600 years.

Therefore one cannot with any degree of personal intregreity claim that the Bible did not come through the Catholic Church, and therefore was written and Inspired by God Specifically for His Catholc Church. It is in conceivable that the Catholic Church could withstand the barrage of heresies, and the unslaught of the Protestant revoluation, if God had not done precisely as He God persoanly vowed to do, and still be the largest Christian sec some 2,000 years later.

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Mark 3: 13 “And he went up on the mountain, and called to him those whom he desired; and they came to him. 14 And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach and have authority to cast out demons: Simon whom he surnamed Peter; James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Bo-anerges, that is, sons of thunder; Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.”

Eph. 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Mt. 28: 18 "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." Jesus had to be speaking to His Apostles about His One Church. There were no other options.

Acts 20: 27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of the LORD [SINGULAR]which he obtained with the blood of his own.”

John 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.

Love and prayers friends,

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

However, when the Cathoilc Chuch has a different intepertation than a Protestant Church… both Christian communities will claim that the Spirit of God illuminated their particular interpertation of the Scriptures.

Its not just the Catholic interpretation which differs from Protestant interpretations. Protestant denominations differ from other Protestant denominations as well. There are even Protestants within denominations which differ with themselves.

That is one of the central issues of the Protestant Reformation: The Magestrieum verses Sola Scriptura.

It became an issue later and is one now but I do not believe it was one of the central issues to begin with. Luther’s Theses dealt with clerical abuses within the Church.

God bless

 

[PJM]

Friends,

To further aid our discussion, here are the definations of the term “prophesy” from yhe Hebew and Greek.

Strong’s Commentary of Hebrew and Greek meaning for bible words

Result of search for “prophesy”: HEBREW
2372 chazah khaw-zaw’ a primitive root; to gaze at; mentally, to perceive, contemplate (with pleasure); specifically, to have a vision of:–behold, look, prophesy, provide, see.

5012 naba’ naw-baw’ a primitive root; to prophesy, i.e. speak (or sing) by inspiration (in prediction or simple discourse):–prophesy(-ing), make self a prophet.

5030 nabiy’ naw-bee’ from 5012; a prophet or (generally) inspired man:–prophecy, that prophesy, prophet.

GREEK

1. propheteuo prof-ate-yoo’-o from 4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:–prophesy.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Very true, but consider these facts and ask yourself where the truth lies accoring, NOT to Catholics, but the very word of God.

The Bible was completed by the end of the First Century, and a Canon set by the Fourth Centry.

From the day Christ died, “A.D.” until the first non-Catholic schism and the beganing of Protestism was nearly 1600 years.

Therefore one cannot with any degree of personal intregreity claim that the Bible did not come through the Catholic Church, and therefore was written and Inspired by God Specifically for His Catholc Church. It is in conceivable that the Catholic Church could withstand the barrage of heresies, and the unslaught of the Protestant revoluation, if God had not done precisely as He God persoanly vowed to do, and still be the largest Christian sec some 2,000 years later.

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Mark 3: 13 “And he went up on the mountain, and called to him those whom he desired; and they came to him. 14 And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach and have authority to cast out demons: Simon whom he surnamed Peter; James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Bo-anerges, that is, sons of thunder; Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.”

Eph. 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Mt. 28: 18 "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." Jesus had to be speaking to His Apostles about His One Church. There were no other options.

Acts 20: 27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of the LORD [SINGULAR]which he obtained with the blood of his own.”

John 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.

.

Love and prayers friends,

I believe in remnant theology…that the true church of God is made up of both OT Saints and NT Saints. Therefore, the true church of God is much older than 2,000 years old. When Jesus told the Pharisees that they searched the OT Scriptures to find life, that they miss the truth that the OT Scriptures pointed to Him for live. So, for me… the church of God is so much more historical and older than what Catholics claim. There is a remnant saved by grace in each and every generation throughout redemptive history. And that redemptive history started in Genesis 3. So in essence, my church is so much older than yours. BTW… those who are united to Christ by faith in the Catholic Church are in my church of the remnant chosen by grace too.

The Remnant of Israel - Rom 11

11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, [1] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

 

[BrianH]

Let me give even more context.

2Pe 1:15 And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.

2Pe 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

2Pe 1:17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”–

2Pe 1:18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

2Pe 1:19 {So} we have the prophetic word {made} more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.

2Pe 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is {a matter} of one’s own interpretation,

2Pe 1:21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

I see the context referrring to the nature of scripture and that we can trust it.

 

[PJM]

=2nd Adam;5737120]I believe in remnant theology…that the true church of God is made up of both OT Saints and NT Saints. Therefore, the true church of God is much older than 2,000 years old. When Jesus told the Pharisees that they searched the OT Scriptures to find life, that they miss the truth that the OT Scriptures pointed to Him for live. So, for me… the church of God is so much more historical and older than what Catholics claim. There is a remnant saved by grace in each and every generation throughout redemptive history. And that redemptive history started in Genesis 3. So in essence, my church is so much older than yours. BTW… those who are united to Christ by faith in the Catholic Church are in my church of the remnant chosen by grace too.

The Remnant of Israel - Rom 11

11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, [1] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

Very clever reply

But salvation was not possbile before Christ, His teachings and His One Church:thumbsup:

The Old Testament leads to and predicts at times what will only be fulfilled in the New Testamant. So the NT both perfects and completes the OT.

 

[2nd_Adam]

mistake of a double post

 

[2nd_Adam]

Very clever reply

But salvation was not possbile before Christ, His teachings and His One Church:thumbsup:

The Old Testament leads to and predicts at times what will only be fulfilled in the New Testamant. So the NT both perfects and completes the OT.

Are you saying Abraham was not saved before the cross? Please see Romans 3 and 4.

Galatians 3:8

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

 

[PJM]

=2nd Adam;5737198]Are you saying Abraham was not saved before the cross? Please see Romans 3 and 4.

Galatians 3:8

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

No, I’m saying that Abraham cound not be saved before the Cross. If by “saved” one understands that salvation is in heaven.

 

[PJM]

Because my opinion is only equal to your’s, if your position is different than I expressed and gave evidence of in the previous post on this string, I invite you to prove it.

We both can’t be right

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, I’m saying that Abraham cound not be saved before the Cross. If by “saved” one understands that salvation is in heaven.

I have to respectfully disagree my friend. Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Abraham Justified by Faith - rom 4

4:1 What then shall we say was gained by [1] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in [2] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith

13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Because my opinion is only equal to your’s, if your position is different than I expressed and gave evidence of in the previous post on this string, I invite you to prove it.

We both can’t be right

Which doctrine or interpertation of Scirpture are we debating? There is much that we agree as Chrstians.

 

[PJM]

=2nd Adam;5737475]I have to respectfully disagree my friend. Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Abraham Justified by Faith - rom 4

4:1 What then shall we say was gained by [1] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in [2] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith

13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

And indeed it was… BUT, access was denied everyone, until after Christ Ressurection.

James 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."
**
Mt. 19:17** "And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” Commadments are WORKS.
**
John 3:5 ** "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” The Sacraments too are WORKS.
**
John 14:**"6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. "

Love and prayers,