Ah... BBC has never failed me so much

[PLAT]

BBC has great reports, but when it comes to things like this…

bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/catholic/catholic_1.shtml

Either BBC doesn’t bother updating the information or just plain stupid.

Significantly it abandoned the notion of the Catholic Church as the sole means of salvation. There were, it was acknowledged, other routes to heaven.

For Catholics, the only route to heaven IS the Catholic Church. If you are not Catholic or excommunicated, the the Church doesn’t know how you would be saved except for the fact that every one has a God-given moral compass and they should follow it and seek for truth (God). This has always been the case.

The Catholic Church ordains only celibate men to the priesthood since Jesus was, it teaches, male and celibate. In the Protestant churches married and female clergy are the norm. Orthodoxy allows married men to become priests but not bishops.

umm, Latin Rite lol…

Moreover, the hierarchical nature of Catholicism sets it apart from other Christian churches. It is a pyramid with the Pope at the top, followed by cardinals (who have the right to elect a new pope on the death of the current incumbent), archbishops, bishops, priests, deacons and laity.

This does not explain the fact that Popes, Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops have the same fullness of the sacrament of holy orders…

Traditionally clerics were seen as having a higher calling than the laity but, since the landmark Second Vatican Council, both laity and clergy have been regarded as jointly ‘the people of God’.

All are th people of God. It is still true that the preisthood and order vocation has a higher calling than the “natural” maritony vocation.

[Mary] occupies a special place interceding between God and His people

Umm, no? Yes she is the best Saint, but the most we ask from Mary is to pray for our intentions, acknowledging that she has no divine power.

The Article also hints that the “modern” catholics would outnumber the traditional ones and the Church’s teachings would be changed. No such luck, modernists.

Oh, and MANY non-Catholics start to learn about Catholicism using this ****?

 

[Melchior_1]

The Article also hints that the “modern” catholics would outnumber the traditional ones and the Church’s teachings would be changed. No such luck, modernists.

Always fun when I hear this. I read a great article once from a local newspaper which essentially said that as bad as things are now, there’s a good chance the Culture of Death will essentially die out. Who are they going to pass their beliefs to? They’re too busy preventing life or killing lives.

Meanwhile, orthodox/practicing Catholics (traditional, charismatic, Latin Rite, Eastern Catholics, Anglican Use, misc etc) remain open to life and are more likely to have more kids to pass their beliefs to.

 

[Theophorus]

Going to the BBC for sound unbiased religious advice is like asking the flat earth society for a geography lesson. The beeb haven’t the first clue when it comes to things that aren’t extreme left wing.

 

[Cider]

It’s the secular media, I don’t expect them to get it right. Heck, some media outlets that claim to be catholic, don’t even get it right.

 

[ConstantinePX]

Significantly it abandoned the notion of the Catholic Church as the sole means of salvation. There were, it was acknowledged, other routes to heaven.

Hmm, yes and no, while I agree the Church is salvation, Ive always been a firm believer that a buddhist monk who has lived his entire life in poverty, meditation, and prayer, will be given the chance to accept Christ once he dies rather then automatically barred from entry into Heaven.

The Catholic Church ordains only celibate men to the priesthood since Jesus was, it teaches, male and celibate. In the Protestant churches married and female clergy are the norm. Orthodoxy allows married men to become priests but not bishops.

This is the Roman Rite of the Church, Byzantine riters who adhere to the Constantinople liturgy practice as well as other rites allow marriage before ordination. This is a practice of tradition, not theology.

Moreover, the hierarchical nature of Catholicism sets it apart from other Christian churches. It is a pyramid with the Pope at the top, followed by cardinals (who have the right to elect a new pope on the death of the current incumbent), archbishops, bishops, priests, deacons and laity.

Yes, they are shepards and we must have some form of authority and hierarchy otherwise we devolve into chaos and anarchy. However, the Pope is known as the ‘First servant of the servants of God.’ We are all his servants, some however placed in positions to shepard and teach.

Traditionally clerics were seen as having a higher calling than the laity but, since the landmark Second Vatican Council, both laity and clergy have been regarded as jointly ‘the people of God’.

See above.

[Mary] occupies a special place interceding between God and His people

This implies Mary is a barrier or wall between God and the people. This is not true. She is not a bouncer at a club; she is a tour guide or more appropriate a commerce specialist who assists those who invoke her wisdom and love.

The Article also hints that the “modern” catholics would outnumber the traditional ones and the Church’s teachings would be changed. No such luck, modernists.

The vast majority of 18-25 year old Catholics I meet are traditionalists, maybe its different in the UK.

 

[Dempsey1919]

The BBC are anti-Catholic so we should not be surprised that their article on Catholicism is riddled with errors.

I rarely watch the BBC and I really resent having to pay for the TV license.

 

[thistle]

Hmm, yes and no, while I agree the Church is salvation, Ive always been a firm believer that a buddhist monk who has lived his entire life in poverty, meditation, and prayer, will be given the chance to accept Christ once he dies rather then automatically barred from entry into Heaven.

With all due respect that contradicts the Church teachings.
Our destination is determined by the state of our soul at death. After death there is no second chance.
You may or may not argue that one or the other person is invincibly ignorant and if truly so and also live a life according to Christ’s teachings in that ignorance they may (not will) be saved. However, such a scenario would deem them to be a Catholic at death.
Not all Catholics are saved but everyone who is saved is Catholic.

 

[PLAT]

The BBC are anti-Catholic so we should not be surprised that their article on Catholicism is riddled with errors.

I rarely watch the BBC and I really resent having to pay for the TV license.

Is it anti-Catholic or anti-Religion? If things about Catholic become twisted like this, how do we know if the BBC is reporting other Christian denominations, Islam, Judaism, and other religion seriously?

 

[ConstantinePX]

With all due respect that contradicts the Church teachings.
Our destination is determined by the state of our soul at death. After death there is no second chance.
You may or may not argue that one or the other person is invincibly ignorant and if truly so and also live a life according to Christ’s teachings in that ignorance they may (not will) be saved. However, such a scenario would deem them to be a Catholic at death.
Not all Catholics are saved but everyone who is saved is Catholic.

This is what I mean:

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

A Buddhist monk, depending on the sect, spends his entire life trying to obtain perfect internal harmony and holiness. Is this not the true search of God, to be perfect and holy in our heart, mind, and soul? Is this not how we imitate or try to become one with Christ? To be one with the Holy spirit in all 3 parts of our existence, mind, body, and spiritual self?

I cannot see God smiting a monk down to hell for this reason. Anyone who seeks perfect holiness in my opinion is in search of God, no matter what. They may not grasp or know the full theology or meaning that his Church has enscribed, but they still none the less search for it in their meditations.

 

[thistle]

This is what I mean:

A Buddhist monk, depending on the sect, spends his entire life trying to obtain perfect internal harmony and holiness. Is this not the true search of God, to be perfect and holy in our heart, mind, and soul? Is this not how we imitate or try to become one with Christ? To be one with the Holy spirit in all 3 parts of our existence, mind, body, and spiritual self?

I cannot see God smiting a monk down to hell for this reason. Anyone who seeks perfect holiness in my opinion is in search of God, no matter what. They may not grasp or know the full theology or meaning that his Church has enscribed, but they still none the less search for it in their meditations.

That is invincible ignorance. I am not arguing that a person who truly is invincibly ignorant but still living a life according to Christ may not be saved. Such a person though would be deemed to be a Catholic at death. However, you are saying such a person could be given a chance AFTER death. There is no second chance AFTER death. Where you go is determined by the state of your soul AT death. Therefore if God says a person is really invincibly ignorant then he is saying two things - a) that person is deemed a Catholic and b) that person has died in a state of grace.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Our destination is determined by the state of our soul at death. After death there is no second chance.

This is not Catholic teaching. We believe in prayers for the souls of the departed because we believe our prayers can help them attain something more. Its not a second chance per se, but our destination is not determined fully by the state of our soul at death because those on earth still get to pray for us.

 

[PLAT]

Consensus reached… now back to this BBC affair…

Atheists are as moral (or immoral) as religious people.

In practical terms atheists often follow the same moral code as religious people, but they arrive at the decision of what is good or bad without any help from the idea of God.

no proof lol… whole point about contraception and abortion and homosexual things and …just lol guys.

In the second half of the 19th century the theory of evolution put forward by Charles Darwin, and other scientific discoveries, undermined the value of religion as a way of explaining the nature and existence of the world.

no… that only SEEMED to have happened because the Church held opinions, not infallible teachings.

According to the doctrine of original sin, God was prepared to punish people for a wrong that was not their fault, just because they were human beings. What sort of God was it, they wondered, who then decided to let us off this unfair punishment because he had punished his son instead of us?

But humans do have the choice to do right or wrong!

 

[ConstantinePX]

According to the doctrine of original sin, God was prepared to punish people for a wrong that was not their fault, just because they were human beings. What sort of God was it, they wondered, who then decided to let us off this unfair punishment because he had punished his son instead of us?

This is misrepresenting the sacrifice of the Mass. God didnt send his only son, himself in physical form, with the sole intention of dieing for us. Yes, that was one of his major intentions as accounted in John 3:16, but the other intention that is paramount, is that God became man incarnate, not only to die for us, but died for us to experience what we MORTALS experience, life and death, why we live as we do, why we think as we do, and what leads us to sin. He did this to UNDERSTAND truly, what mankind is. It is similar to a man with a vast intellect and knowledge of many things having to drop down his level of thinking so he can put himself in the shoes of the person he is trying to communicate with so he TRULY knows where he is coming from.

This is the ultimate love. God didnt have to become man and see and experience what man has to go through and die for us. But he loved us so much, he did, he became incarnate in his son at the transfiguration, experienced life and death, for the sake of US. Not him, but for OUR SAKE.

 

[ConstantinePX]

I feel like im talking to this guy directly, someone should download this thread and send it to him :juggle:

(Whoever did this show… although it was probably a board of writers working for BBC)

 

[mullenpm]

I hesitate to enter this debate; I have a simple faith and do not like to intellectualize to extreme; but, (there is always a but).

As Thistle says, we get no second change to be SAVED; if we die and our soul is not in the state of grace; we go to hell. I believe it is as simple as that.

If we die and our soul is in the state of grace; but we need a little sprucing up; we go to Purgatory. The souls in Purgatory are SAVED; just not yet in Heaven.

To pray for the holy souls in Purgatory is not giving them a second change to be saved; we are simply asked the Lord to take them to Heaven sooner than he might have.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[PLAT]

I hesitate to enter this debate; I have a simple faith and do not like to intellectualize to extreme; but, (there is always a but).

As Thistle says, we get no second change to be SAVED; if we die and our soul is not in the state of grace; we go to hell. I believe it is as simple as that.

If we die and our soul is in the state of grace; but we need a little sprucing up; we go to Purgatory. The souls in Purgatory are SAVED; just not yet in Heaven.

To pray for the holy souls in Purgatory is not giving them a second change to be saved; we are simply asked the Lord to take them to Heaven sooner than he might have.

Hope this makes sense.

It is believed that this is off-topic.

 

[ConstantinePX]

But then that goes into, ‘At what point/what amount of sin is the definitive line where you go to purgatory vs. straight to hell.’

 

[thistle]

This is not Catholic teaching. We believe in prayers for the souls of the departed because we believe our prayers can help them attain something more. Its not a second chance per se, but our destination is not determined fully by the state of our soul at death because those on earth still get to pray for us.

Apologies to the OP for still digressing but I need to respond.

When we die we are either IMMEDIATELY damned (go to Hell) or IMMEDIATELY saved (Straight to Heaven or Purgatory first but both mean saved).
The Church DOES teach that the state of a person’s soul at death determines if they go to Hell or are saved.
The Church DOES teach that anyone dying in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell.

 

[manualman]

I’ve come to the realization that this is far larger than just a BBC issue. I’m lately convinced that the entire English speaking world retains at least vestiges of the historic anti-catholicism of post-HenryVIII England. It infects history professors, journalists, politicians, doctors, counselors… It even affects US as catholic laity if we aren’t aware of the danger. Culture is a LONG term thing. A few decades are nothing in terms of culture. If you want to comprehend the bias present in today’s culture, simply look back a hundred years. Anything obvious then, is still present to a significant degree now.

 

[Ana_v]

egh… is there a way to write to the author, so I can point out some of the things that need revision in his article, and things that need to be nuanced so as to not sound misleading?

At first I thought to myself ’ well, I’ll point out these things in the comment section if there is one", but … no comment section!