AIDS and Condoms

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Dale_M said:
I think you are saying a wife, if she can not refuse her husband, but can negotiate a condom, then it is okay to use that condom. Is that what you mean?
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I guess my point is in some particular situation if a woman is being raped and in some way the rapist would use a condom that would not be the sin of contraception as the act is not consentual.

I have no idea how that would work in a practical situation. It seems unlikely.
 
Wow… thats just amazing. Okay guys, if your going to beat your wives make sure the stick is no bigger than you thumb!

I’d rather be beaten with a rubber stick, that some call “evil”, and which burns the hands of the one holding it and be free from getting HIV. I think you would too.
I see it as far more anti-christian and violent not to use a condom in this context than to do it.
If a culture does not allow a woman to say no to marital relations with her husband… then, if I love the woman, I hope her husband puts that rubber on and spares her life and dont leave their children orphan. You gotta face reality.

Or do you be become like the pharisees when you have God Divine law and look for loop wholes to let people sin?

Loop wholes… hehe… yes… I’ll make loop wholes any day in theoretical church teachings if it saves the lives of women and children… yes sir, and I am not afraid to say that.
To not want to make loop wholes then would be to misunderstand the Spirit of Christ, Him that said to the pharisees - who said it was intrincically evil to even move a finger on the shabbath (these sit on the chair of Moses): “Hypocrites, wouldnt any one of you help your cow if it feel into the pond on the shabbat? yet if I heal a man or woman you want me killed.”
what is most worth to God: a human life or that a person does not wear a condom in his fallen humanity…?
I know what God I believe in and he has good plans for us all… not only for those who can afford to be theoretical on other peoples behalf.

My conscience says you can’t fix a problem by compounding it with sin. You do understand at there is actual harm in this world caused by sin. Telling people its okay to sin regardless of your good intentions hurts them. God laid down his law for a reason, its not just an abstract list of pointless don’t but a list of things that kill the life of grace in your soul.

The strange thing is that you all say that the pill is okay for medical reasons but if someone is faced with HIV there is no medical reason to prevent the infection by means of a condom… Actaully its called preventive measures, no?
It lacks all logic…

**I guess you’d want my Sister-in-law to have not been born then. **

You are babbling here… I never said that I am pro-condoms in all situations. I am just saying that there are situations where, if you say its worse for a woman if her HIV-infected husband wears a condom then if he does not, then I dont know who you are anymore and the principles that you toss around are really not what I think the New Covenant free-from-slavery is all about.

I** doesn’t mater what you think of this ‘gift’, your interfering with Gods design for marriage and you can’t correct it with another si**n.

Gods design is not that a HIV-infected man has sex with his wife. if he does anyway … then leave God out of it and let the woman protect her self any way she can. Thereby she is not sinning, but her husband has already sinned against her, making it necessary for her to ask him to use a condom if he will not abstain.
 
Dale_M said:
I think you are saying a wife, if she can not refuse her husband, but can negotiate a condom, then it is okay to use that condom. Is that what you mean?
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If he has HIV then absolutely…

condoms are not great and they dont solve world problems for sure (we all agree on that) but they may spare a persons life and have been known to do so many times already (especially in Europe where HIV is especially rampant in groups that dont use condoms… its a fact that condoms are effective, even if not 100 percent effective against HIVvirus)… and that is something we should not deny if we claim to work for the truth.

If the Africans learned to use condoms then millions of lives would be spared… also lives of children.
I know we would still have a problem with sexual morality but that does not change the other fact.
 
GraceDK said:
You are babbling here… I never said that I am pro-condoms in all situations. I am just saying that there are situations where, if you say its worse for a woman if her HIV-infected husband wears a condom then if he does not, then I dont know who you are anymore and the principles that you toss around are really not what I think the New Covenant free-from-slavery is all about.
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You are pro-condom in her case. She from Ethiopia, Her biological parents are the exact people your speaking of.
GraceDK said:
Gods design is not that a HIV-infected man has sex with his wife. if he does anyway … then leave God out of it and let the woman protect her self any way she can. Thereby she is not sinning, but her husband has already sinned against her, making it necessary for her to ask him to use a condom if he will not abstain.
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Wait, so we’re supposed to totally ignore Gods Law when it difficult or hard and just do what we want?
 
You are pro-condom in her case. She from Ethiopia, Her biological parents are the exact people your speaking of.

It was wrong of them to have sex when one had HIV-yes that is right. However that does not mean that a human being is a “mistake”.

Wait, so we’re supposed to totally ignore Gods Law when it difficult or hard and just do what we want?

I don’t believe God says: “If your husband has HIV then dont use a condom”.
I think that God understands that sometimes people, through their sin, put other people in such horrible situations that its acceptable for these to do something that in another situation would not be noble.
The same is true for the people who lied to the nazis who asked them: “do you hide Jews in your home?”
Lying is intrinsically evil… but death of innocent persons is a greater evil. The same logic I apply to condoms when the situation is an HIV infected husband who by means of culture demands his wife to sleep with him anyway.

You and I have different perceptions of what God demands in this situation… You being legalist and I being in favour of the words: "God did not create man for the sake of the sabbath but He created sabbath for man’s sake.
 
GraceDK said:
It was wrong of them to have sex when one had HIV-yes that is right. However that does not mean that a human being is a “mistake”.
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But, you say they should have used a condom, she would not have been born.
GraceDK said:
I don’t believe God says: “If your husband has HIV then dont use a condom”.
I think that God understands that sometimes people, through their sin, put other people in such horrible situations that its acceptable for these to do something that in another situation would not be noble.
The same is true for the people who lied to the nazis who asked them: “do you hide Jews in your home?”
Lying is intrinsically evil… but death of innocent persons is a greater evil. The same logic I apply to condoms when the situation is an HIV infected husband who by means of culture demands his wife to sleep with him anyway.

You and I have different perceptions of what God demands in this situation… You being legalist and I being in favour of the words: "God did not create man for the sake of the sabbath but He created sabbath for man’s sake.
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So this is not Gods Law?
When it is a matter of the moral norms prohibiting intrinsic evil, there are no privileges or exceptions for anyone. It makes no difference whether one is the master of the world or the “poorest of the poor” on the face of the earth. Before the demands of morality we are all absolutely equal…
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vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html
 
**But, you say they should have used a condom, she would not have been born. **

I say… somebody put somebody elses life at risk in order to have sexual pleasure. that is not love and it should not happen.
That God in his mercy chooses to bring a little new person into the world is a seperate issue that really has nothing to do with the primary question.
This is like if you ask me: But was it not okay for J and P to have premarital sex? - see they had a baby and he would not exist if it was not for the premarital sex.
Such an argument is wholly besides the point.
Premarital sex is a sin.
sex while being infected with HIV is also a sin, whether or not you are married.

So this is not Gods Law?

If you claim that is it Gods love that a man who has HIV and has sex does not use a condom … then yes, I think you stretch Gods law too far.
 
GraceDK said:
I say… somebody put somebody elses life at risk in order to have sexual pleasure. that is not love and it should not happen.
That God in his mercy chooses to bring a little new person into the world is a seperate issue that really has nothing to do with the primary question.
This is like if you ask me: But was it not okay for J and P to have premarital sex? - see they had a baby and he would not exist if it was not for the premarital sex.
Such an argument is wholly besides the point.
Premarital sex is a sin.
sex while being infected with HIV is also a sin, whether or not you are married.
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That is exactly my point. God can make good out of bad. Instead you want to do bad, so bad can happen and maybe stop another bad.
GraceDK said:
If you claim that is it Gods love that a man who has HIV and has sex does not use a condom … then yes, I think you stretch Gods law too far.
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Using a condom is intrinsic evil because all it does is separate the pro-creative form the unity. It does not discriminate between marital sex, premarital sex or extramarital sex in ever single one of those cases it is sinful to use. You can not ever use evil to preform good. That is ends justify the means and has been condemned by the Church.

This is the same reason Artificial Birth Control is intrinsic Evil.

Hormone Therapy however all by its self is moral neutral.
 
On the point of them actually working anyway:

“Condoms have a substantial failure rate for AIDS transmission. The risk of fatal infection is quantifiably significant. Among heterosexual couples studied using condoms in which one partner was infected, 30 percent became infected within the year” (M. Fischl, “Evaluation of Heterosexual Partners, Children, and Household Contacts of Adults with AIDS,” Journal of the American Medical Association 257 [1987]: 447–449).

“Condom use was not significantly associated with protection against infection” (Padian, Windlestein, et al, “Male-to-Female Transmission of Human Immunodeficiency Virus,” Journal of the American Medical Association 257 (1987): 788).

“There are no clinical (human) data supporting the value of condoms in preventing the spread of a range of diseases including . . . human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), the precursor of AIDS” (Lawrence J. McNamee, M.D., Brian F. McNamee, M.D., AIDS: The Nation’s First Politically Protected Disease. National Medical Legal Publishing House, 1988, 102–113).

“Sayings such as ‘the way to get AIDS is from unprotected sex’ should be avoided since they imply that ‘protected’ sex is safe. It is not” (W. Shepherd Smith, Jr. “Another Point of View: AIDS, HIV and Sex Education,” AIDS/HIV News, January/February 1992, 12).
 
GraceDK said:
Care to tell us which you dislike in particular?
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This thread’s existence was solely and only due to my misunderstanding of the principle of double effect. You have totally derailed it. If you really want to talk about something other than the PDE, the “New Thread” button is prominently displayed in the upper-left hand corner over in the Social Justice board.
 
BlaineTog said:
This thread’s existence was solely and only due to my misunderstanding of the principle of double effect. You have totally derailed it. If you really want to talk about something other than the PDE, the “New Thread” button is prominently displayed in the upper-left hand corner over in the Social Justice board.
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Hey Blaine… dont be like that… you can continue your thread now… I promis to not interfere anymore… My English is not so good so I thought that “doubble effect” was precisely in line with the topic of my posts. My apology.

bye… 😊
 
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