C
Cheiron
Guest
Dingdingding! That’s the theological rub isn’t it? Why would God make such a wicked man a prophet? What Muhammed did isn’t prophet-like behaviour at all.
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J
Joan92
Guest
To answer that specific question, He didn’t. God didn’t reveal Islam. Revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle, Saint John. Source CCC 66
Peace!
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BornInMarch
Guest
It’s worth noting that some muslims believe Aisha bint Abu Bakr was older than nine when Muhammad slept with her. They come to this conclusion by adding up some important dates in Islam.
islamicity.org/3390/at-what-age-aisha-marry-prophet-muhammad-pbuh/
It might be a careful analysis, it might be a desperate attempt to save Muhammad’s image, but either way it’s worth mentioning.
islamicity.org/3390/at-what-age-aisha-marry-prophet-muhammad-pbuh/
It might be a careful analysis, it might be a desperate attempt to save Muhammad’s image, but either way it’s worth mentioning.
D
drac16
Guest
‘Waiting before consummating it’ would hardly qualify as a marriage, though, because intimacy is part and parcel of a marriage. I know it seems gross by modern standards, but I’d like to ask people to get their mind out of the gutter and consider the possibility that Aisha [may Allah be pleased with her] matured quickly (both physically, emotionally and spiritually). She became one of the greatest scholars and leaders of her generation and narrated thousands of hadiths, many of which were marriage-related. That wouldn’t have been possible had she waited a long time before getting married.
I’d like to ask people to consider the fact that Aisha consented to getting married young. Moreover, she was the daughter of Muhammad’s best friend, Abu Bakr [may Allah be pleased with him]. Had there been any pedophilic inclination on Muhammad’s part, Abu Bakr would’ve called off the marriage.
I do appreciate the fact that no one yet has used this topic as an excuse to slander me or any other muslim. Disagreeing is one thing, but calling me an advocate on pedophilia is another thing and I appreciate the fact that no one has gone that far.
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drac16
Guest
Well, that assumes that she aged just like nine year old girls do today. Aging has a number of variables and remember, we’re talking about a girl who lived in the seventh century in Arabia with a very different upbringing and environment. I remember experiencing puberty at age ten. If girls can mature earlier than boys, which they typically do, it’s entirely possible that Aisha had going through puberty at age nine. As soon as you hit puberty, Shariah says that you are an adult.
Technically, I could’ve gotten married at ten, but I know I wasn’t ready, nor was I a muslim.
D
drac16
Guest
This thread is not for proselytizing. Please go somewhere else.
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BornInMarch
Guest
In case you can’t tell, I’m going out of my way to be generous and to give Muhammad the benefit of the doubt. I’m really hoping that she was at least in her teens when stuff happened.‘Waiting before consummating it’ would hardly qualify as a marriage, though, because intimacy is part and parcel of a marriage. I know it seems gross by modern standards, but I’d like to ask people to get their mind out of the gutter and consider the possibility that Aisha [may Allah be pleased with her] matured quickly (both physically, emotionally and spiritually). She became one of the greatest scholars and leaders of her generation and narrated thousands of hadiths, many of which were marriage-related. That wouldn’t have been possible had she waited a long time before getting married.
I’d like to ask people to consider the fact that Aisha consented to getting married young. Moreover, she was the daughter of Muhammad’s best friend, Abu Bakr [may Allah be pleased with him]. Had there been any pedophilic inclination on Muhammad’s part, Abu Bakr would’ve called off the marriage.
I do appreciate the fact that no one yet has used this topic as an excuse to slander me or any other Muslim. Disagreeing is one thing, but calling me an advocate on pedophilia is another thing and I appreciate the fact that no one has gone that far.
In part I am being generous because acting in a predatory manner towards a child seems inconsistent with the rest of Muhammad’s life; he spoke out against infanticide, he told his soldiers not to kill civilians, and generally did a lot of other good things. Mainly it is because Muhammad’s teachings are held dear in the hearts of 1.6 billion humans alive on Earth and if all of those people considered as their role model someone who did something so horrendous then it would say very bad things about human nature as a whole.
I also understand that calling someone a pedophile or a child-molester is the worst accusation possible. Literally no crime is worse than harming a child, so such an accusation should only be levied when there is surety beyond reasonable doubt.
In any case, if I had a 9 year old daughter and she was sexually active (even with another 9 year old) I would be freaking out! Even if she was a genius-child with an early puberty.
Even in the best case scenario for Aisha being 9 (in which Aisha is given a choice in the matter and agrees to the marriage, Abu Bakr gives her The Talk beforehand, and Muhammad makes sure to not cause pain), she’d still be mentally and emotionally unprepared for sex and marriage.
I also have to wonder why the marriage was necessary; it wasn’t to secure loyalty because Abu Bakr was Muhammad’s friend, and it wasn’t for need of an heir because Muhammad already had children by this point. It couldn’t be because he was sexually attracted to children; most of Muhammad’s wives were older women and he had enough power to have whoever he wanted. You mentioned the hadiths, but she couldn’t have been the only person following Muhammad around and recording what he was saying considering how important he was in his society at the time.
It might have been part of a plan to ensure Abu Bakr’s election as Caliph, though not all Muslims think Abu Bakr should have been Caliph.
Anyway, even if Muhammad didn’t do anything wrong, accusations should still be discussed and debated.
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arthra
Guest
I’ve heard the allegation of pedophilia before and allow me to suggest a few things…
First there was no universal calendar in use in Arabia before the Caliph Umar… He was the second Caliph after Abu Bakr… so no one really knows for sure how old these early figures of Islam were…
In AD 638 (17 AH), Abu Musa Ashaari, one of the officials of the Caliph Umar in Basrah, complained about the absence of any years on the correspondence he received from Umar, making it difficult for him to determine which instructions were most recent. This report convinced Umar of the need to introduce an era for Muslims. After debating the issue with his counsellors, he decided that the first year should include the date of Muhammad’s arrival at Medina (known as Yathrib, before Muhammad’s arrival). Uthman ibn Affan then suggested that the months begin with Muharram, in line with the established custom of the Arabs at that time.[21] The years of the Islamic calendar thus began with the month of Muharram in the year of Muhammad’s arrival at the city of Medina, even though the actual emigration took place in Safar and Rabi’ I.[3] Because of the Hijra, the calendar was named the Hijra calendar.
Islamic calendar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Secondly there is a Hadith that suggests Aisha was of age before the Hijra before the marriage with the Prophet took place…
Note the following Hadith re. the age of Aisha:
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 465:
*Narrated 'Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents
following Islam since I attained the age of
puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet
visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My
father Abii Bakr thought of building a mosque in
the courtyard of his house and he did so. He
used to pray and recite the Qur’án in it. The
pagan women and their children used to stand by
him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was
a Softhearted person and could not help weeping
while reciting the Quran. The chiefs of the
Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that
their children and women might be affected by
the recitation of Quran)."
(Hadith, Bukhari Vol 1)
*
The above tradition suggests that Aisha had reached the age of puberty while she still lived with her parents before the marriage with the Prophet. Since Muhammad left Mecca in 622 A.D. and all accounts agree that the marriage was not consummated until two years after the Hijra, around 624 A.D. Aisha must have been older than supposed.
Hadith traditions vary and were gathered over a hundred years after the events in question hence they can only be taken as verbal traditions…
A question for those who allege pedophilia… if this was so then why would Muhammad marry a forty year old woman and be faithful to her for some twenty years until her death?
The first marriage with Khadija was an example of monogamous marriage in a polygamous society.
First there was no universal calendar in use in Arabia before the Caliph Umar… He was the second Caliph after Abu Bakr… so no one really knows for sure how old these early figures of Islam were…
In AD 638 (17 AH), Abu Musa Ashaari, one of the officials of the Caliph Umar in Basrah, complained about the absence of any years on the correspondence he received from Umar, making it difficult for him to determine which instructions were most recent. This report convinced Umar of the need to introduce an era for Muslims. After debating the issue with his counsellors, he decided that the first year should include the date of Muhammad’s arrival at Medina (known as Yathrib, before Muhammad’s arrival). Uthman ibn Affan then suggested that the months begin with Muharram, in line with the established custom of the Arabs at that time.[21] The years of the Islamic calendar thus began with the month of Muharram in the year of Muhammad’s arrival at the city of Medina, even though the actual emigration took place in Safar and Rabi’ I.[3] Because of the Hijra, the calendar was named the Hijra calendar.
Islamic calendar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Secondly there is a Hadith that suggests Aisha was of age before the Hijra before the marriage with the Prophet took place…
Note the following Hadith re. the age of Aisha:
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 465:
*Narrated 'Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents
following Islam since I attained the age of
puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet
visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My
father Abii Bakr thought of building a mosque in
the courtyard of his house and he did so. He
used to pray and recite the Qur’án in it. The
pagan women and their children used to stand by
him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was
a Softhearted person and could not help weeping
while reciting the Quran. The chiefs of the
Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that
their children and women might be affected by
the recitation of Quran)."
(Hadith, Bukhari Vol 1)
*
The above tradition suggests that Aisha had reached the age of puberty while she still lived with her parents before the marriage with the Prophet. Since Muhammad left Mecca in 622 A.D. and all accounts agree that the marriage was not consummated until two years after the Hijra, around 624 A.D. Aisha must have been older than supposed.
Hadith traditions vary and were gathered over a hundred years after the events in question hence they can only be taken as verbal traditions…
A question for those who allege pedophilia… if this was so then why would Muhammad marry a forty year old woman and be faithful to her for some twenty years until her death?
The first marriage with Khadija was an example of monogamous marriage in a polygamous society.
A
Augustine3
Guest
Did she really consent? Arab girls in those days did not consent. It was customary for the parents to consent to the groom in an arranged marriage (this practice still goes on in my village in Lebanon).
Even if she did consent did she know what she was getting herself into?
See Hadith below:
Sahih Muslim
'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Book 8, Number 3311
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Reuben_J
Guest
While there are many discussions promoted mainly by Muslims that project Muhammad as the perfect man, a model for all righteous Muslims, this topic nevertheless can be quite an embarrassment to them especially when discussed with non-Muslims. Inevitably there would be accusation of slandering and the discussion seldom can end in an amiable end.Well, that assumes that she aged just like nine year old girls do today. Aging has a number of variables and remember, we’re talking about a girl who lived in the seventh century in Arabia with a very different upbringing and environment. I remember experiencing puberty at age ten. If girls can mature earlier than boys, which they typically do, it’s entirely possible that Aisha had going through puberty at age nine. As soon as you hit puberty, Shariah says that you are an adult.
Technically, I could’ve gotten married at ten, but I know I wasn’t ready, nor was I a muslim.
Perhaps that’s an indication of the difficulty of justifying Muhammad as a prophet of God in the conventional and usual sense. One must really look through the lens of Islam to be able to justify him.
As for Aisha reaching puberty, a Hadith saying that she was playing with doll, a standard Muslims indicator that the child is a minor, is often brought up in such discussion. I was more amazed by the fact that some Muslim protagonists deny this Hadith.
S
SalamKhan
Guest
From my experience as a Muslim, different apologists said different things. But you should know, it’s only in the modern age where Muslims tend to deny the traditional reports about Aisha’s age of 6-9, and instead propose the revisionist ranges of 9-12 and even 12-15.
There are still conservative Muslim scholars who defend the practice of marrying children, even if they don’t explain how or why this is acceptable.
There are still conservative Muslim scholars who defend the practice of marrying children, even if they don’t explain how or why this is acceptable.
H
hasantas
Guest
It is reported that Aisha was engaged with another man before getting marriage with prophet. That demonstrate Aisha was old enough to get marry, perhaps 16-19 but not 6-9. There are very contradictional records about issue. Just thing in that way if Muhammad had commited such thing all Pagans and also Muslims would refute Him so easily and nobody would trust Him. But Muslims always regarded Him at most high moral life and deed. If we have no any clear knowledge so we should not asperse a man and especially that man was prophet. Islam cannot be refuted by such cheap tactics.
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BornInMarch
Guest
That’s what I was thinking.
Being a child-molester would be inconsistent with Muhammad’s character, and if Aisha was 9 then she would have been unable to write any of her hadiths (not even geniuses know how to write before they are 10).
C
Cheiron
Guest
I don’t know if that’s true, but I’m willing to believe she was engaged to another man. That doesn’t prove anything about her age.
The hadith mentioning Aisha’s young age are the hadith from Bukhari, which - according to my understanding - is one of the most reliable sources within Islam.
I doubt that. Child marriage was common. Girls in Classical Greece married at the age of 14, 15 or 16, usually with men in their twenties. Even in medieval times people married very young. Only when Enlightenment dawned and emphasized education (Rousseau) did people begin to consider a phase between childhood and adulthood. Puberty became a thing in the 1950’s. The idea that child marriage is wrong is very recent, on a historical scale.
Also, Muhammad killed a lot of opponents. Anyone who challenged Muhammed’s marriage to Aisha must have lost all sense of self-preservation.
I’d appreciate it if you told that to mr. Muhammad Khan Sheerani, the chairman of the Islamic Ideology Council (CII). He is a member of the Pakistani parliament and voted down a bill outlawing child marriage, condemning the bill als blasphemous. The CII believes girls should be able to marry if the first signs of puberty show - which could happen to girls as young as nine or ten. The current minimum age of 16 is “unislamic” according to Sheerani. Who is right?
That is true. Muhammad’s character does not weaken his arguments. Nor does it strengthen them, I must add. But if the story is true, then it does leave us it with the potentially dangerous proposition that God chose a child molester as a prophet. That’s just how it looks like to outsiders and I can’t put it better than that.
Do I believe Muhammed married Aisha at 6 and had sex with her when she was 9? I don’t know. In fact, I don’t think any hadith is reliable.
S
SalamKhan
Guest
16-19? That’s a new one.
S
SalamKhan
Guest
Just a minor correction, the minimum age for girls to get married in Medieval Europe was 12 years, and for boys was 14 years; there were people who attempted to get their children married younger but this was condemned by the Church.
S
SalamKhan
Guest
None of the ‘Sahabas’ wrote Hadith; Hadith literally means oral tradition. Hadiths were only written when they were being collected, sometime after the generation of the ‘Sahabas’.
U
Usagi
Guest
Remember, too, that Our Lady is often thought to have been 13 or so when she married St. Joseph (and carried and bore Jesus). Now, of course, we don’t believe she ever had sex, but by implication there were other brides that age who did. Judging people of the past by present standards, even when their acts are unthinkable to us, is a dangerous game.
As another data point, I seem to recall that puberty has been occurring at younger and younger ages as people have been better fed and so forth. A nine-year-old girl having already had her first period (the likely benchmark of marriageable age they would have used) would have been rather rare in the 7th century CE. That makes the suggested older ages for Aisha more plausible.
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Rosebud77
Guest
Exactly so. In eg the Middle Ages, some babies would be “married” at birth or soon afterm for political and dynsatic reasons, but would stay at home with their parents until of an age. . Would hesitateto use the word paedophilia though
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SalamKhan
Guest
The problem is, Muslims until modern times accepted the traditional recorded age of Aisha, and have practiced child marriage too. If I’m not mistaken, Umar asked Ali permission to marry Ali’s daughter when she was 6; these were both companions of Muhammad.
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