M
Montalban
Guest
Valke2 already pointed to this; “someone” earlier on this thread said so!
Is this not enough?
- Status
Is this not enough?
M
Montalban
Guest
Note how Moslems slide the argument away from themselves to one of attacking others!
All Pro_universal and other Moslems have to do is say why they think a nine year old is fit to start raising children simply based on the fact that they are starting puberty
R
Rocky
Guest
When Muhammed married Aisha and then consummated the marriage was probably okay with the culture of the time. He most likely was not considered a “dirty old man”. The real problem, which has been pointed out, is that because Muhammed is supposed to be the perfect model for society for all time, it is impossible for believing muslims to denounce the practice of child marriage. To do so is to show that Muhammed is not the perfect man for all societies at all times. And this then puts too many questions into play. And faith can be/is shaken.
I believe that Pro and Kadaveri and the others are being put into an terrible situation. I believe they despise pedophilia, but cannot say anything against it in this context. We should simply pray for them.
I believe that Pro and Kadaveri and the others are being put into an terrible situation. I believe they despise pedophilia, but cannot say anything against it in this context. We should simply pray for them.
M
Montalban
Guest
I already pointed this out in post #45 of this thread
What’s interesting is Valke2 coming in on the side of Islam in this case by giving relativist arguments. Valke2 sited an un-maned post on this thread (which was LilyM’s post) as an authority and based a counter-argument on that. Unfortunately failing to read any rebuttal to that point, including my own.
But the clever (or rather ‘cunning’) aspect of this thread is Pro_universal and other Moslems (and Moslem apologists) shifting of the argument from one of examining Islam to attacking Christianity.
This is because Islam, void of any morals hopes to believe that everyone else is just as morally bankrupt. It’s their best argument.
But despite calls by me for him to show proofs of his position Pro_universal isn’t about providing such, tearing at the opposition seems to suffice.
M
Montalban
Guest
How do you know that it was okay, even then?
What evidence do you have that men married under-aged girls (as there’s no evidence that Aisha had reached puberty).
No one who spoke out against Muhammad lived very long, so there may have been disgust, but it would have been muted.
The apologists for the perpetrators get sympathy. The victim gets….?
Why can’t they?
What about Valke2 or LilyM? These poster’s are not Moslem. They seek to justify the actions of another faith’s leader by relativist arguments.
M
Montalban
Guest
Do you have any proof that being capable potentially of having a child one should start having children?
There’s many health risks to both baby and mother in ‘young pregnancies’ (even assuming your story is correct)
By the way, what happened to the ‘father’ of the child? Is there any outrage that a child’s having children?
M
Montalban
Guest
Thanks for the selective quote. You give this one all the time, and I have to go and point out the following
It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph’s marriage contained in the apocryphal writings.
(Ibid.)
V
Valke2
Guest
No. I don’t seek to justify Muhammed’s actions. I just don’t believe it is a valid criticism of the religionof Islam to say “Mohamed married a nine year old, therefore Islam has no value or morals.” This is essentially what has been said in this and every other thread about Islam on this board.
There is almost never an attempt to engage in a theological discussion when Islam is mentioned.
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Why isn’t it a valid criticism of a religion? Since Islam takes muhammad has its model of behavior and moral guidance, if Muhammad committed pedophilia, you won’t have any Muslim condemning his pedophilia (as can be seen by the Muslim silence on this issue in this topic) but not only that, they take such pedophilic acts as morally right and religiously sanctioned.
Remember it was Muhammad who claimed to be the moral guide to the Muslims. His morality has everything to do the morality of Islam.
How do you make a theological discussion about Muhammad’s pedophilia? You present the Islamic texts showing Muhammad had sexual relations with a little nine year old child. What else is necessary? Please tell us.
E
exoflare
Guest
Muslims believe that Mohammed was the perfect example for all humanity, regardless of time and place. Therefore Islam’s moral validity sinks or swims with Mohammed’s. Don’t blame us that Islam has painted itself into a corner on this one…
E
exoflare
Guest
Dang it Rodrigo, just barely beat me to it! 
M
Montalban
Guest
Yes, you do. You attempt a relativist argument. You’re condemning Christians for condemning an horrendous act. You charge us with hypocrisy.
And what evidence do you have? You actually cited ‘someone else on this thread’. You were so quick to condemn Christians on this you didn’t even provide any evidence for your relativist quip. You misrepresent Christianity.
He’s there example of morality. He did this thing that’s not only highly immoral, but not condemned and still supported.
You’ve simply downplayed the role he plays in their faith. You thus misrepresent Islam.
And how has discussing Mary helped? How has misrepresenting both religions added to the discussion?
M
Montalban
Guest
One of the terrible things about debating this is those that wish to stifle discussion of Islam, warts and all.
I’m always amazed at the fact people leap in to this discussion - not to condemn an horrendous act - but to criticise those who condemn it. And by virtue of doing this, they support that act, for ignoring injustice is just as well as supporting it.
I’m still waiting pro_universal presenting his evidence. I’ve asked him to show how a girl is instantly mentally/emotionally an adult upon the onset of puberty (plus 3 months)
I mean, why 3 months anyway, as he’s on about arbitrary dates being set?
Is that three calendar months? Three lunar months?
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
*I just don’t believe it is a valid criticism of the religionof Islam to say “Mohamed married a nine year old, therefore Islam has no value or morals.” *Well let’s look at this logically. Mohammed is meant to be the perfect example for mankind for all time. It’s not like the Prophets of the Old Testament, some of whom did some dodgy things - they were men used by God but fallible men nonetheless. No, Mohammed is the perfect example. So if he has very few scruples and morals, then sadly Islam collectively has very few. Of course there are moral Mohammedans, but only because they are not “good” Muslims! They do not follow the sword verse for example.
If Muslims would not defend Mohammed’s actions but would say well that was what happened in those days, would there even be a debate? Probably not.
Aisha is an excellent topic for debate because all except Muslims can clearly see it is wrong. Islam is really Mohammedanism, it stands or falls on Mohammed so it is right to concentrate on Mohammed rather than the religion he devised from combining various faiths of the time plagiarising their writings.
M
Montalban
Guest
It’s as easy as A-B-C
A- Muslims regard Muhammad the best example of man.
Muslims believe that Muhammad is the ideal man - an example for all time (hence that is why Allah chose him - because he was a cut above the rest)
"The Lord of the universe, The Most Merciful and Compassionate sent about 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nook and corner of this earth to guide humanity towards understanding the purpose of its creation and thereby surrender to His Divine Laws and achieve its final destiny of Eternal Peace in His Paradise. The last messenger of God who brought His last revelation the Holy Quraan to humanity is Muhammad bin 'Abdullah, born in Mekkah, approximately 550 years after Jesus, son of Mary, peace and blessings of God be on them both. This is the account of this last Messenger of God, the most remarkable man, that human history has known."
daar-ul-ehsaan.org/truth/must.htm
“The Prophet accomplished all this through the strength of his character and personal example;”
4newmuslims.org/prophet.htm
There is a semblance of internal logic in them believing this as their god would want to choose someone remarkable of character in order to provide his prophecies
B-The Haddiths though not perfect, are second to the Koran for sources of instruction for Muslims
Some might say that the Haddiths are not perfect, but that’s only when compared with the Koran… “The point is not that Hadith is an unreliable source of information. On the contrary, Hadith lacks the level of reliability which is entailed in the basic sources of the Shari`ah. In other words, it is only when compared to the Qur’an and the Sunnah that Hadith seems wanting in reliability. Nevertheless, if one were to compare Hadith with, for instance, sources of other histories, it would easily surpass the reliability of the sources of other histories on all accounts. This is only due to the strenuous work done by the scholars of Hadith in this field of study.”
understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=319&sscatid=69
C- The Primary Sources showing Aisha was nine when the relationship with Muhammad was consummated
From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
“Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: “I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).””
Bukhari vol. 7, #88:
“Narrated Urwa: “The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).””
Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:
“Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and **at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.” **
FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309
Aisha reported: Allah’s Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house **at the age of nine". **
FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD
(Abu Dawud’s Hadith is the third most respected Hadith in Islam.)
From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116:
"Aisha said, “The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old.” (The narrator Sulaiman said: “Or six years.”). **“He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old.” **
M
Montalban
Guest
Valke2, just in case you think they’re not doing it anymore…
Q). I have a nine year-old girl who is married to a person at the age of 20. The marriage contract was made a year ago but the girl is refusing to live with her husband or even to look at him. In addition to that she requires him to divorce her. Could you please advise me what to do? Should I separate them or force my daughter to live with him?
(Name and address withheld)
A). It is certainly possible for a father to get his daughter married to someone who he thinks is suitable for her. Whether he should force her into any marriage is something totally different Let me relate this to you: A woman companion of the Prophet came to him and said: “My father has married me away to one of his relatives without asking my opinion. I do not wish to stay with this man as his wife.” The Prophet ordered their separation. When she realized that she was free and that she was no longer married to the man, she said to the Prophet: “I now accept what my father has done and I am marrying this man. I only did this so that women may know that it is not up to men to marry them away against their wishes.”
Scholars have discussed at length the marriage of a **young girl who has not attained puberty and whether her father may marry her away without her permission. If such a marriage takes place it is valid. ** However, it is perhaps best if the marriage is not allowed to be consummated until the girl attains puberty, when she is given the choice whether to continue with this marriage or not. Moreover her father may not marry her away to someone who is of a lesser status than hers. If he does and she objects, the marriage is not valid. Generally speaking, however. a girl must be asked to express her opinion in any proposed marriage. If she has been married before, then her verbal consent should be requested. If she has not been married previously, then her consent is also to be requested, but if she keeps quiet, her silence is taken as approval.
To say that the marriage is valid is not to say that people should go ahead and make such marriages. There may be certain circumstances, which make it desirable or advisable that a very young girl should be married away in this manner but this must not be taken as the normal situation. In marriage, the normal thing is that people should marry when they are of marriageable age. That does not include girls of nine or ten years of age, although some girls may attain puberty that early. Marriage involves certain responsibilities and a very young girl could not be expected to shoulder these. There are also other problems, which the may face, as she grows older. If things go wrong with her marriage, she will always blame her father for having messed up her life, well intentioned though he may be. If you take the example of your own daughter, and you force her to go and live with her husband despite her protestations, you will never be sure whether the marriage will work out well or not. If it does, then well and good. But there is an equal chance that problems may arise especially with your daughter behaving like the child she is. While her husband expects from her the attitude of a married woman. How could you expect her to overcome the feeling that she has been thrown into this situation without being allowed the slightest say in the whole matter which is to affect the rest of her life?
As we see it, your choice is either to get her divorced now, before the marriage is consummated or to keep her with you until she has attained puberty and she is in a position to express her opinion about this marriage. If she still objects to it, then you divorce her without any compulsion to go through with it. If, on the other hand, if she approves of this marriage, at that time, then you go ahead with it. Perhaps it is better for you to consult with the young man to whom you have already married her. He should be understanding and accommodating. Between the two of you should work out the best solution which ensures that he is not lumbered with marriage which is forced on a young girl who cannot be expected to give an opinion about such a matter.
islamicvoice.com/august.98/marriage.htm#EAR
Q). I have a nine year-old girl who is married to a person at the age of 20. The marriage contract was made a year ago but the girl is refusing to live with her husband or even to look at him. In addition to that she requires him to divorce her. Could you please advise me what to do? Should I separate them or force my daughter to live with him?
(Name and address withheld)
A). It is certainly possible for a father to get his daughter married to someone who he thinks is suitable for her. Whether he should force her into any marriage is something totally different Let me relate this to you: A woman companion of the Prophet came to him and said: “My father has married me away to one of his relatives without asking my opinion. I do not wish to stay with this man as his wife.” The Prophet ordered their separation. When she realized that she was free and that she was no longer married to the man, she said to the Prophet: “I now accept what my father has done and I am marrying this man. I only did this so that women may know that it is not up to men to marry them away against their wishes.”
Scholars have discussed at length the marriage of a **young girl who has not attained puberty and whether her father may marry her away without her permission. If such a marriage takes place it is valid. ** However, it is perhaps best if the marriage is not allowed to be consummated until the girl attains puberty, when she is given the choice whether to continue with this marriage or not. Moreover her father may not marry her away to someone who is of a lesser status than hers. If he does and she objects, the marriage is not valid. Generally speaking, however. a girl must be asked to express her opinion in any proposed marriage. If she has been married before, then her verbal consent should be requested. If she has not been married previously, then her consent is also to be requested, but if she keeps quiet, her silence is taken as approval.
To say that the marriage is valid is not to say that people should go ahead and make such marriages. There may be certain circumstances, which make it desirable or advisable that a very young girl should be married away in this manner but this must not be taken as the normal situation. In marriage, the normal thing is that people should marry when they are of marriageable age. That does not include girls of nine or ten years of age, although some girls may attain puberty that early. Marriage involves certain responsibilities and a very young girl could not be expected to shoulder these. There are also other problems, which the may face, as she grows older. If things go wrong with her marriage, she will always blame her father for having messed up her life, well intentioned though he may be. If you take the example of your own daughter, and you force her to go and live with her husband despite her protestations, you will never be sure whether the marriage will work out well or not. If it does, then well and good. But there is an equal chance that problems may arise especially with your daughter behaving like the child she is. While her husband expects from her the attitude of a married woman. How could you expect her to overcome the feeling that she has been thrown into this situation without being allowed the slightest say in the whole matter which is to affect the rest of her life?
As we see it, your choice is either to get her divorced now, before the marriage is consummated or to keep her with you until she has attained puberty and she is in a position to express her opinion about this marriage. If she still objects to it, then you divorce her without any compulsion to go through with it. If, on the other hand, if she approves of this marriage, at that time, then you go ahead with it. Perhaps it is better for you to consult with the young man to whom you have already married her. He should be understanding and accommodating. Between the two of you should work out the best solution which ensures that he is not lumbered with marriage which is forced on a young girl who cannot be expected to give an opinion about such a matter.
islamicvoice.com/august.98/marriage.htm#EAR
V
Valke2
Guest
It seems that your post deals witha pre-arranged marriage in which the person answering the question is saying either wait until she reaches puberty and can make a decision as to whether to consummate or break the contract/divorce.
Regarding Mary, I already gave my reasons for believing what her age could have been, acknowledged that she may have been much older. But feel free to keep gnawing at that bone. I’ll end my participation in this thread by simply saying that the attitude toward Islam on these boards seems very different to the attitude currently expressed by the Catholic Church.
Regarding Mary, I already gave my reasons for believing what her age could have been, acknowledged that she may have been much older. But feel free to keep gnawing at that bone. I’ll end my participation in this thread by simply saying that the attitude toward Islam on these boards seems very different to the attitude currently expressed by the Catholic Church.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Most Islamic countries (including the most heavily populated) have a lower limit of 15/16/18 for marriage for women.
I wonder if they’re being un-islamic?
I wonder if they’re being un-islamic?
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Kaninchen,
I think all the Muslim countries without exception had no minimum age of consent or left it at 9 years of age prior to the last 50-100 years. It is only due to Western influence that the western-style minimum ages of consent were instituted in Muslim countries - probably as a hangover of the Western colonial legal system. Countries like Saudi Arabia don’t have minimum age of consent at all, and Iran has it at nine because of Muhammad’s pedophilia with Aisha.
It’s the same situation that Muslims by and large no longer take slaves - through Western influence and not because they instituted an emancipation program of their own.
Thus, it is probably unfair to claim that the minimum age of consent had anything to do with Islam. That’s giving credit to Islam that is not its due.
You have made an interesting apologetic, nonetheless.
Chau,
Rodrigo
I think all the Muslim countries without exception had no minimum age of consent or left it at 9 years of age prior to the last 50-100 years. It is only due to Western influence that the western-style minimum ages of consent were instituted in Muslim countries - probably as a hangover of the Western colonial legal system. Countries like Saudi Arabia don’t have minimum age of consent at all, and Iran has it at nine because of Muhammad’s pedophilia with Aisha.
It’s the same situation that Muslims by and large no longer take slaves - through Western influence and not because they instituted an emancipation program of their own.
Thus, it is probably unfair to claim that the minimum age of consent had anything to do with Islam. That’s giving credit to Islam that is not its due.
You have made an interesting apologetic, nonetheless.
Chau,
Rodrigo
E
Eden
Guest
Christian inspired writing does not tell us Mary’s age when she conceived her Son. I was always taught at Catholic School that she was likely to have been around 15. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing. What we do know is that Muslim holy writings record Aisha as having been 9 years old when she first had intercourse with Muhammed. In fact, it is recorded that her nurse was pushing her on a swing, when her mother came to fetch her and bring her to Muhammed, who was waiting for her on a bed. The record goes on to say that Aisha’s mother put her daughter on Muhammed’s lap before just before the marriage was consummated.
It’s interesting that we have a Muslim poster who both denies that Aisha’s age was 9, while at the same time, providing a picture of a 9-year-old who gave birth to justify the fact that Aisha was only 9. This kind of dialogue tactic is common among Muslim posters here, I’ve noticed. They frequently deny certain teachings or facts about Islam and defend those teachings or facts at the same time.
It’s interesting that we have a Muslim poster who both denies that Aisha’s age was 9, while at the same time, providing a picture of a 9-year-old who gave birth to justify the fact that Aisha was only 9. This kind of dialogue tactic is common among Muslim posters here, I’ve noticed. They frequently deny certain teachings or facts about Islam and defend those teachings or facts at the same time.
- Status