Aisha

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According to Ayatollah Sistani, Shariah law states that a female is considered a child at the age of nine:

sistani.org/local.php?modules=nav&nid=5&cid=410

The only reason the age of nine could possibly be the age of adulthood in Shariah law, is that Muhammed first had intercourse with Aisha at that age. This is pedophilia and it is disgusting.
 
Eden said:
According to Ayatollah Sistani, Shariah law states that a female is considered a child at the age of nine:
The only reason the age of nine could possibly be the age of adulthood in Shariah law, is that Muhammed first had intercourse with Aisha at that age. This is pedophilia and it is disgusting.
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But what’s amazing to me is a non-Moslem like Valke2 has offered apology for this, by a relativist argument!
 
Eden,

Your post misrepresents the law on this subject. 9 is not a maximum; it is a legal minimum, ie, even if there are signs of puberty, you cannot be considered an adult until at least 9.

You might find it helpfel to quote from a Sunni perspective if you’re going to generalize, since Shias are a minority of the Muslim world:

qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=263&CATE=87
If none of these signs are found then one is not legally an adult until…the completion of fifteen [lunar] years.
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The least [age for reaching adulthood] is twelve lunar years for males and nine for females. ”,(Durar al-Hukkam Sharh Ghurar al-Ahkam, 2: 275, Istanbul )
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Cestusdei,

I think you are intentionally misrepresenting my point because you have no real answer. I’m not surprised.
 
pro_universal said:
Cestusdei,

I think you are intentionally misrepresenting my point because you have no real answer. I’m not surprised.
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And you’ve still not answered me. It’s hard to play the victim card if you ignore posts yourself.
 
pro_universal said:
Eden,

Your post misrepresents the law on this subject. 9 is not a maximum; it is a legal minimum, ie, even if there are signs of puberty, you cannot be considered an adult until at least 9.
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That is not what Ayatollah Sistani said. He said that a child is considered an adult “when they reach nine lunar years”, not when they have reached “at least nine lunar years and have signs of puberty”. The Ayatollah gives no qualifiers there. Your post misrepresents what Ayatollah Sistani answered. According to the ayatollah (who has more authority than pro_universal on the subject), men may consider a 9-year-old child to be an adult. That is pedophilia.
 
And so, again I ask – Why do you choose to believe that Aisha (ra) was only 9 years old at the time of the consumation of her marriage?

I think I need to explain why I keep asking this question.

You see, I already know and understand why a Muslim would believe this hadith regarding Aisha’s age at the time of her marriage.

They believe that Aisha (ra) was 9 years old because they have FAITH in the accuracy of this particular hadith and therefore they have no problem at all in believing it’s literal meaning regardless of any contradictory evidence which exists or even logical scientific reasoning to dispute this hadith.

My question is directed at the non-Muslims:

Why do YOU yourself have FAITH in the truthfulness of this particular hadith regarding Aisha’s age despite contradictory evidence which exists that challenges the accuracy of this hadith?

In other words, one requires FAITH to believe this hadith because one has to choose to believe it over all other contradictory evidence and the many Muslims who do believe this hadith have definitely chosen to believe based on FAITH alone.

Therefore, are the non-Muslims here who do believe this hadith telling me that you do indeed have this FAITH in the truthfulness of the hadeeth collections?
 
hamba2han said:
And so, again I ask – Why do you choose to believe that Aisha (ra) was only 9 years old at the time of the consumation of her marriage?

I think I need to explain why I keep asking this question.

You see, I already know and understand why a Muslim would believe this hadith regarding Aisha’s age at the time of her marriage.

They believe that Aisha (ra) was 9 years old because they have FAITH in the accuracy of this particular hadith and therefore they have no problem at all in believing it’s literal meaning regardless of any contradictory evidence which exists or even logical scientific reasoning to dispute this hadith.

My question is directed at the non-Muslims:

Why do YOU yourself have FAITH in the truthfulness of this particular hadith regarding Aisha’s age despite contradictory evidence which exists that challenges the accuracy of this hadith?

In other words, one requires FAITH to believe this hadith because one has to choose to believe it over all other contradictory evidence and the many Muslims who do believe this hadith have definitely chosen to believe based on FAITH alone.

Therefore, are the non-Muslims here who do believe this hadith telling me that you do indeed have this FAITH in the truthfulness of the hadeeth collections?
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Why oh why do you keep asking a question that’s been answered?
 
Do you yourself have FAITH in the truthfulness of the hadeeth collection?

YES or NO?
 
hamba2han said:
Do you yourself have FAITH in the truthfulness of the hadeeth collection?

YES or NO?
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Ah we have an excellent example of that logical fallacy here, the complex question. To put it another way, this is like asking someone if they have stopped beating their wife - yes or no? The question contains certain presumptions.
So it is clear that the question cannot be answered in the way it is framed.
 
hanba2han,
Some women are known even in ancient times to have given birth when they were 50+. The Bible is full of stories of old women giving birth in fact so if you are arguing with Christians I think you will not convince them of your position.
 
hamba2han said:
Do you yourself have FAITH in the truthfulness of the hadeeth collection?

YES or NO?
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I don’t need to have faith in what Moslems believe to know that Moslems believe it.

You keep asking and it’s already been answered.

Imagine if someone says “I’m going to kill the President because he’s gay”.

I don’t need to know if it’s true (or not) that the President is gay. All I need to know is if it’s true his own belief; that he’s going to kill the president (I can extend this as far as needing to know he’s going to kill the president because he thinks that the President is gay). It’s totally irrelevant whether I believe the president’s gay. Can you imagine the Secret Service, they get a tip-off. “We’ve just heard someone’s threatening to kill the president because he’s gay”, the security chief says, “I’ll assign 30 men to do a background check on the President to confirm whether or not he is gay”😛 It’s completely missing the point.

This is why your reasoning is so flawed. It’s totally missing the point. Moslems believe the Hadith. We can debate what it is that they believe. We don’t need to believe what they believe. It is enough to believe that they believe it!

Not that we’ve not already gone over these things before! But, for the sake of giving you the benefit of the doubt - it might be a language problem, I have answered yet again.

The vast majority of Islamic opinion believes she was nine. Even one Islamic apologist here, Pro_universal’s defended the concept of having sex with a nine year old (if she’s deemed a woman).

He believes it. We reject the notion that having sex with a nine year old is moral. We can deal with that and debate that.

What you want is for us to believe part of your position first, before we can argue against it!

I tells ya, Islam’s full of such strange thinking.
 
If I ask:

Do you have FAITH in the truthfulness of the Bible?

Would there be any problem at all for Christians to answer either YES or NO?

And so, why should it be any different for them to similarly give a YES or NO answer to my question about having FAITH in the truthfulness of the hadeeth collection?
 
jack_hawkins said:
Ah we have an excellent example of that logical fallacy here, the complex question. To put it another way, this is like asking someone if they have stopped beating their wife - yes or no? The question contains certain presumptions.
So it is clear that the question cannot be answered in the way it is framed.
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Well put. Islam seems to be full of novel thinking

(and sorry about The Ashes) 😉
 
hamba2han said:
If I ask:

Do you have FAITH in the truthfulness of the Bible?

Would there be any problem at all for Christians to answer either YES or NO?

And so, why should it be any different for them to similarly give a YES or NO answer to my question about having FAITH in the truthfulness of the hadeeth collection?
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Do you even read the posts people put in response to yours? Seems not. But I’m a patient person.

Let me put it this way, I’m trying to phrase this in your language, you’re now forbidden to comment on anything regarding the Bible, because you don’t believe the Bible.
 
hamba2han said:
If I ask:

Do you have FAITH in the truthfulness of the Bible?

Would there be any problem at all for Christians to answer either YES or NO?

And so, why should it be any different for them to similarly give a YES or NO answer to my question about having FAITH in the truthfulness of the hadeeth collection?
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I think you need to go and study the fundamentals of logical argument, then you will know the answer:thumbsup:
in any case, FAITH would not be the correct term
 
It seems to me that Muslims have a screwy sense of faith and reason when it comes to comparative religions. They have no problems with imams and ‘Islamic scholars’ such as Zakir Naik and Osama Abdallah criticizing the Bible, the Hindu scriptures and other faiths even though those people clearly do not believe in the Bible or Hinduism (for example).

Yet they demand non-Muslims to have ‘faith’ or ‘believe’ in the Islamic scriptures before they are ‘qualified’ to comment on Islam.

To me it betrays a lack of understanding of the difference between ‘objective study’ in comparative religions and blind faith. It also means the Muslims want their cake and eat it too. They clearly want to criticize other religions even though they don’t believe in the respective non-Islamic scriptures but demand that only those who have faith in Islam should ‘criticize’ it. But then Muslims won’t criticize Islam, at least not to the same objective standards as non-Muslims.
 
Not to mention the lack of reciprocity as regards religious tolerance! Saudi Arabia funds mosque building in the UK whilst no churches are even allowed there.
I’m not sure good Mohammedans are allowed to criticise Islam - it doesn’t mean “submission” for nothing. They aren’t even allowed to criticise other Muslims, and prefer to believe wacky conspiracy theories than accept Muslims have committed atrocities in the name of Mohammed.
 
kellie said:
No, so does that mean, according to you, that I can’t accept your belief that Aisha was 9?
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The question is:
**
WHY** should you accept Muslim belief that Aisha (ra) was 9??

I can draw a comparison with Christian belief here.

Christians believe that Paul had a vision while on the road to Damascus.

There is no record of this anywhere in Islamic literature and so there is a great deal of ambivalence among Muslims on whether or not this event really did happen.

It may be that he did indeed see this ‘vision’… but then again, it may well be that he did not, God knows best.

Muslims are not going to either argue or agree with Christians on whether or not Paul really did see what he said to have seen primarilly because Muslims just do not know whether he really saw it or not.

The point here is, the choice of whether or not to believe Paul’s account is based entirely on FAITH, that’s all.

By comparison, the detractors of Islam have actually chosen to believe this account of Aisha’s age in the hadeeth even though absolutely nothing is mentioned about this in their own scriptures.

Like I mentioned, it is a matter of FAITH whether or not you believe something which is written in scriptures and which no external source can verify.

Are Christians who have chosen to accept this particular hadith as being the truth saying that they do indeed have FAITH in the truthfulness of the hadeeth collection?
 
pro, I would remind you that I am not the one defending having sex with 9 year olds, you are.

hamba, why do you reject your own religions beliefs? Twist as you might there is no way to avoid the fact that Muhammed married a 9 year old. If that truly bothers you, and it should, then you might start to question whether he was a real prophet or not. That I think it why we are having this argument. You don’t want to go that route.
 
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