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pro_universal
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That’s exactly what it is. Sometimes people use latin phrases to make it sound more complicated (it’s not really even a “fallacy”, but there’s another can of worms)…but yep, you have it.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
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Yes, kellie. It’s very much the pot calling the kettle black. However, that is not a valid argument - it is a logical fallacy indeed.
I have argued against this very issue in many long discussions with Muslims, who by the way, seem especially keen to argue with tu quoque especially with Christians. The moment you point out anything negative about islam, out comes the ‘bible is also wrong’ argument from the Muslim.
Yes, pro. It’s a simple issue. You cannot absolve Muhammad’s pedophilia by pointing out the Christian God’s miraculous ‘impregnation’ of the Virgin Mary. For one thing, her age is unknown and is likely to be greater than 9.
12 is not 9. 14 is not 9.
Another thing is that Joseph is not held as a model for humanity unlike Muhammad - so it’s wrong to compare an ordinary person with someone who claimed to be the prophet of God. Different standards apply because models for humanity should display higher morals than everyone else. If not, what’s the point?
Thirdly, the miraculous divine birth of Jesus is in the Quran, so by maligning God pro is also maligning Allah.
I have argued against this very issue in many long discussions with Muslims, who by the way, seem especially keen to argue with tu quoque especially with Christians. The moment you point out anything negative about islam, out comes the ‘bible is also wrong’ argument from the Muslim.
Yes, pro. It’s a simple issue. You cannot absolve Muhammad’s pedophilia by pointing out the Christian God’s miraculous ‘impregnation’ of the Virgin Mary. For one thing, her age is unknown and is likely to be greater than 9.
12 is not 9. 14 is not 9.
Another thing is that Joseph is not held as a model for humanity unlike Muhammad - so it’s wrong to compare an ordinary person with someone who claimed to be the prophet of God. Different standards apply because models for humanity should display higher morals than everyone else. If not, what’s the point?
Thirdly, the miraculous divine birth of Jesus is in the Quran, so by maligning God pro is also maligning Allah.
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pro_universal
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You are missing the point entirely.
The birth of Jesus and the marriage of Joseph and Mary is considered by Christians to be the work of God. I don’t think you’ll find a single Christian who says “God took advantage of a girl who was too young to consent to such a big mission!”
Mary is a sign for humankind in Catholicism.
So if you accept the proposition that we should judge others actions by the same measure as we judge our own…well, in this case it’s an easy answer: the fact that Aisha was young does not make Muhammad a bad guy, anymore than the fact that Mary was young makes God a bad guy for impregnating her or marrying her off to Joseph.
Seriously, this is such a simple concept, I’m having a hard time understanding how you get it confused with “you too” arguments.
If your whole point hinges on “Well maybe mary was 12”, then please give me a principle that would make it okay to marry a 12 year old, but flatly prohibit marrying a 9 year old.
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kellie
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I don’t understand why it is not a valid way of arguing.
If someone tries to tell me I am wrong in doing something, and yet I see them doing the same thing, I have every right to say “Hey listen mate, you do it too”.
Or do you think people should do what people say, and not what people do?
If we are to condem Muslims for an action of Mohammed, and they condemn us for the actions of Mary, and we say “tu quoque” back to them, isn’t that like admitting we know we are wrong in our case, but we don’t want to talk about it, we just want to concentrate on proving the Muslims wrong, thereby winning the argument.
If someone tries to tell me I am wrong in doing something, and yet I see them doing the same thing, I have every right to say “Hey listen mate, you do it too”.
Or do you think people should do what people say, and not what people do?
If we are to condem Muslims for an action of Mohammed, and they condemn us for the actions of Mary, and we say “tu quoque” back to them, isn’t that like admitting we know we are wrong in our case, but we don’t want to talk about it, we just want to concentrate on proving the Muslims wrong, thereby winning the argument.
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pro_universal
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Ella
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Mary’s age is not recorded in the Bible. However even if she was 12, 9 years old is not the same as 12 years old. We are talking about 9 year old girls. If you want to start a thread about 12 year old girls, feel free to do so.
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ChristIsTheWay
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Could someone point me to the sources that say Mary was 12?
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pro_universal
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Please explain to me what magic about the number 12 makes a 12 year old girl mature enough to consent to carry a baby and to be married, but absolutely rules out any possibility of a 9 year old consenting to marriage.
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jack_hawkins
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DOH! You really don’t have much of a clue about human development do you? Do you have any children?
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Ella
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Not really. A 9 year old girl is not the same as a 12 year old girl.
Kellie, the problem addressed in this thread is the fact that since Muhammad is considered the perfect man by Muslims, anything he did is regarded as moral and worthy of being imitated. So, if Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl, they feel that it must be moral for men to have sex with 9 year old girls. This happens TODAY and it is a crime against these girls.
The outrage against the rape and murder of Jessica Lunsford made me think about Aisha - they were the same age, 9 years old.
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn...om/Portals/0/031906images/oreilly-jessica.jpg
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Rodrigo_Bivar
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Tu quoque is a logical fallacy even though many people use it to shut their opponents up for want of a better argument.
Truth and falsity, right and wrong, should be judged on their intrinsic qualities - so it doesn’t matter who is doing the judging the result should be the same. If something is wrong, does it make it right depending on who is doing the accusation? No.
All we can say in a tu quoque argument is that both are wrong. As the saying goes, ‘two wrongs don’t make a right.’
That true because both are WRONG and cannot make a right.
Therefore, we should judge all actions based on their intrinsic qualities, not on who does the judging because whoever does the judging does not change whether the action is right or wrong.
It’s so simple yet Muslims cannot understand it.
Truth and falsity, right and wrong, should be judged on their intrinsic qualities - so it doesn’t matter who is doing the judging the result should be the same. If something is wrong, does it make it right depending on who is doing the accusation? No.
All we can say in a tu quoque argument is that both are wrong. As the saying goes, ‘two wrongs don’t make a right.’
That true because both are WRONG and cannot make a right.
Therefore, we should judge all actions based on their intrinsic qualities, not on who does the judging because whoever does the judging does not change whether the action is right or wrong.
It’s so simple yet Muslims cannot understand it.
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jack_hawkins
Guest
actually she was 6 when they got betrothed/married, and 9 when he consummated
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pro_universal
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Are you implying that if someone assaults a 12 year old, you will not be as outraged, since “12 is not 9”?
If not, I can’t see what possible substance there is in your assertion “12 is not 9”
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kellie
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Where does it still happen? That is, Muslims marry 9 year old girls. What countries?
Do these countries have civil laws about age of consent, and statutory rape?
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kellie
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My point being, what right does someone have to point out to someone else their action is wrong, when they make the same wrong action?
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Rodrigo_Bivar
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12 is not 9. That’s a fact.
There is a far greater probability that a girl would have reached puberty by 12 than by 9.
Also, we know for a fact that Mary had already reached puberty during the time in question. How do we know this? Pre-pubertal girls don’t get pregnant. They simply can’t. It’s biologically impossible. So straight away, the comparison between Mary and Aisha is fraught in this issue of pedophilia, since Mary cannot be used in discussion on pedophilia at all since she had already reached sexual maturity.
So where’s this evidence that Aisha had reached puberty when she was nine?
I’m only asking because I have the solid evidence that Mary had already reached puberty when she conceived Jesus.
There is a far greater probability that a girl would have reached puberty by 12 than by 9.
Also, we know for a fact that Mary had already reached puberty during the time in question. How do we know this? Pre-pubertal girls don’t get pregnant. They simply can’t. It’s biologically impossible. So straight away, the comparison between Mary and Aisha is fraught in this issue of pedophilia, since Mary cannot be used in discussion on pedophilia at all since she had already reached sexual maturity.
So where’s this evidence that Aisha had reached puberty when she was nine?
I’m only asking because I have the solid evidence that Mary had already reached puberty when she conceived Jesus.
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ChristIsTheWay
Guest
I guess since we all sin, Christians should just stop preaching the Gospel?
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jack_hawkins
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It’s a non sequitur to therefore say that adolescence is a “psychological phenomenon”. There are various criteria for deciding maturity, and I have no doubt people mature at slightly different rates in different societies - that is a world from declaring that a girl of 9 can consent to marriage and sex!
Oh well, the USA - what can I say? I wouldn’t know about the states. Saudi Arabia still has no age of consent. Again that is a tu quoque, and I make no apologies for using the term. I use the rules of logical argument. Of course asking for consistency isn’t tu quoque (and I never claimed it was).
Well again there is a world of difference between practising and sanctioning. That’s what makes the difference between being a tu quoque and not being a tu quoque?
Oh yeah, that’s solid proof.
A “straw man” argument! I said it’s textual support. Let’s face it, if we’re talking solid proof then even talking about religion is a waste of time, agreed?
I can’t see what is remotely hypocritical about my point?? Please support your assertion.
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pro_universal
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Christistheway,
are you saying that Mary’s young age at impregnation and marriage was sinful???
Or just that it’s sinful if Muslims did this, but not if Christians did it?
are you saying that Mary’s young age at impregnation and marriage was sinful???
Or just that it’s sinful if Muslims did this, but not if Christians did it?
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Rodrigo_Bivar
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kellie,
A tu quoque is a logical fallacy. It means you shouldn’t be using it in an argument. It’s not a valid reasoning technique.
Secondly, the comparison is wrong anyway. Mary had already reached puberty. Aisha didn’t. So instantly, the comparison is false - you cannot accuse God of being a pedophile since Mary had already reached puberty.
How do I know this? Because it is biologically impossible for a pre-pubertal girl to conceive a child (unless by a quirk of biology she is carrying a sibling - it’s been known to happen).
But for normal conception no pre-pubertal girl can conceive, so Valke2 was wrong to make that comparison in the first place.
A tu quoque is a logical fallacy. It means you shouldn’t be using it in an argument. It’s not a valid reasoning technique.
Secondly, the comparison is wrong anyway. Mary had already reached puberty. Aisha didn’t. So instantly, the comparison is false - you cannot accuse God of being a pedophile since Mary had already reached puberty.
How do I know this? Because it is biologically impossible for a pre-pubertal girl to conceive a child (unless by a quirk of biology she is carrying a sibling - it’s been known to happen).
But for normal conception no pre-pubertal girl can conceive, so Valke2 was wrong to make that comparison in the first place.
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