Aisha

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Ella

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Aisha was 9 when Mohammed consummated his marriage to her, an act that Pro Universal has defended as moral right here in this forum.

When I see pictues of Jessica Lunsford, I see a 9 year old girl, the same age as Aisha.
Jessica’s rapist/murderer, John Couey, has just been convicted of raping her and killing her by burying her alive with a plush toy dolphin.

And I wonder how anyone could believe it is moral to have sex with a 9 year old girl.

Look at her!
http://www.sundaypaper.com/Portals/0/031906images/oreilly-jessica.jpg

It is for children like Jessica that I continue to reiterate that it is NEVER MORAL to sexually assault a child.
 
How do you know that Aisha (ra) was 9 at the time her marriage was consumated?

If you a referring to a hadith to back up your claim, then why do you choose to believe that particular hadith and not other hadiths regarding the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?
 
That hadith was and is accepted by virtually all muslims. At least until it suddenly became embarassing. We just had a thread on this issue. In the end the muslims were in fact defending this horrible behavior.
 
And I wonder how anyone could believe it is moral to have sex with a 9 year old girl.
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Yet groups like NAMBLA, Danish Pedophile Association, etc. advocate removal of all consent laws.

“Different strokes for different folks.” Right?

I have heard of some groups arguing that since 7 is generally considered the “age of reason” by Christian Churches and is when rites like first communion and baptism often occur, that the legal “age of consent” should also be 7.
 
cestusdei said:
That hadith was and is accepted by virtually all muslims. At least until it suddenly became embarassing. We just had a thread on this issue. In the end the muslims were in fact defending this horrible behavior.
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Correct, Cest. Whether or not the hadith is true is one thing. But to have people like Pro actually defending sex with a 9 year old is another. It did indeed happen here. Pro argued that sex with a 9 year old child is moral.

It’s one thing to argue on an internet forum about the fate of a little girl over a thousand years ago. But Jessica Lunsford puts the fact - what a 9 year old girl is - in a real, present light that cannot be whittled away by rhetoric.

God please protect all 9 year old girls, all around the world.
 
Ella said:
Correct, Cest. Whether or not the hadith is true is one thing. But to have people like Pro actually defending sex with a 9 year old is another. It did indeed happen here. Pro argued that sex with a 9 year old child is moral.

It’s one thing to argue on an internet forum about the fate of a little girl over a thousand years ago. But Jessica Lunsford puts the fact - what a 9 year old girl is - in a real, present light that cannot be whittled away by rhetoric.

God please protect all 9 year old girls, all around the world.
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The name of this thread is ‘Aisha’, not ‘9 year-old girls’.

Again I ask:

How do you know that Aisha (ra) was indeed 9 years old at the time her marriage was consumated?

The answer is that you don’t.

Case dismissed… unless you say that you believe completely this hadith and all related hadiths about Aisha, then you might have a case.

The ball is in your court:

Are you prepared to accept ALL authenticated hadiths about Aisha instead of picking and choosing only the ones that you want to believe?
 
hamba2han said:
The name of this thread is ‘Aisha’, not ‘9 year-old girls’.
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It’s my thread and it’s about what I want it to be about.
You weren’t here when the prior discussion occured.
We hashed out the whole hadith argument you’re presenting already.
What ended up happening was muslim apologists like Pro Universal trying to defend sex with 9 year old girls.

Jessica Lunsford simply shows us what a 9 year old child truly is - a child.
 
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hamba2han:
Again I ask:

How do you know that Aisha (ra) was indeed 9 years old at the time her marriage was consumated?
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Is it your assertion that the girl in question was not 9 years old? Is there dispute as to her age when her marriage was consummated? It doesn’t matter what I or anyone believes. What matters is reality. Was the girl 9 or was she a different age when her marriage was consummated?
 
thats sad. 😦 I’m sure they’re both in God’s loving care now and safer and happier than they ever were in the miserable world. God’s blessings to both of them. But there are still too many cases like this.

I had a friend once thats a pedophile - I felt really bad for him for very important reasons.Not that I condone my friend, but I can see why.

But this Muhammed person lived a normal life and voluntarily decided to be a ped. :eek: Ticks me off to no end. One child is more precious than all the money in the world.
 
b_justb said:
Is it your assertion that the girl in question was not 9 years old? Is there dispute as to her age when her marriage was consummated? It doesn’t matter what I or anyone believes. What matters is reality. Was the girl 9 or was she a different age when her marriage was consummated?
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Yes, there is a fair bit of dispute regarding the age of Aisha (ra) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha’s_age_at_marriage
 
It is clear, I think, that Islam does not advocate sex with children. Abraham was willing to kill both his children. We don’t seem to have any problem believing he was righteous. Everyone can find issues with their respective scriptures or actions taken on behalf of their religion.
 
hamba2han said:
Yes, there is a fair bit of dispute regarding the age of Aisha (ra) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha’s_age_at_marriage
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I don’t know the whole story but have heard rumor that Muhammad married a young girl. I have heard her age reported as young as 6, but mostly age 9. The thing I think is important is to realize the social context of this event. If the girl was 9, was that socially acceptable at the time it happened and in the culture that it happened? If so, what is all the hubbub? Do we as US Americans derail George Washington because he owned slaves? No. Why not? We (hopefully) all think slavery is just hideous, right? Well then why do we celebrate Geo. Washington’s Birthday? Why don’t we cuss his name because he owned slaves? Because at the time is was socially acceptable to do so. I maybe wrong but I see this story in the same way. I highly doubt any Muslim would advocate conjugal bliss with a 9 year old today, especially any Muslim living in the US. But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t at some past time and other culture acceptable to do.
 
I find it interesting that a muslim will suddenly deny the hadiths and earliest biographies of Muhammed. If this hadith is incorrect then NONE of them can stand. That means you really can’t say anything about Muhammed or the quran. Don’t they teach logic in Islam?
 
Valke2,

What a fresh breath of reasonability, as usual.

My position on this issue is very simple:

Marriage between 9 year olds and old men in 21st century New York is one thing. I don’t think anyone would agree that this is okay, as it does not fit any of our moral norms.

However, even today, marriage to a 9 year old say out in the stone aged Sudanese desert or in the heart of the Amazon is an entirely different matter. So it’s silly to go around bashing people for a practice that, in similar social circumstances, is near universal.

If you find people living in the same circumstances as the desert Arabs of the 7th century, you will find young marriages, anywhere. That is a powerful indicator that you’re making mountains out of molehills not because there’s a good reason to criticize, but rather because you don’t like Muslims.

Demanding that this practice be considered child rape leads to absurd conclusions, ie, that we should send armies to the Amazon to wipe out all those indigenous groups to prevent the practice. If you wouldn’t defend that policy, you’ve got no leg to stand on other than “Mooslims bad, Euros good”
 
Ella said:
Jessica’s rapist/murderer, John Couey, has just been convicted of raping her and killing her by burying her alive with a plush toy dolphin.

.
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This is just sick, God Bless her, safe in her Heavenly Fathers arms, at last, singing with the Angels.
 
pro_universal said:
Valke2,

What a fresh breath of reasonability, as usual.

My position on this issue is very simple:

Marriage between 9 year olds and old men in 21st century New York is one thing. I don’t think anyone would agree that this is okay, as it does not fit any of our moral norms.

However, even today, marriage to a 9 year old say out in the stone aged Sudanese desert or in the heart of the Amazon is an entirely different matter. So it’s silly to go around bashing people for a practice that, in similar social circumstances, is near universal.

If you find people living in the same circumstances as the desert Arabs of the 7th century, you will find young marriages, anywhere. That is a powerful indicator that you’re making mountains out of molehills not because there’s a good reason to criticize, but rather because you don’t like Muslims.

Demanding that this practice be considered child rape leads to absurd conclusions, ie, that we should send armies to the Amazon to wipe out all those indigenous groups to prevent the practice. If you wouldn’t defend that policy, you’ve got no leg to stand on other than “Mooslims bad, Euros good”
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I think that even in the Sudan and other desert areas, where younger marriages are routine, 9 is still not generally acceptable. But there is a tendancy to marry girls off very young, whether for economic reasons, to ensure that she won’t get pregnant out of wedlock, etc.
 
Valke2 said:
I think that even in the Sudan and other desert areas, where younger marriages are routine, 9 is still not generally acceptable. But there is a tendancy to marry girls off very young, whether for economic reasons, to ensure that she won’t get pregnant out of wedlock, etc.
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I think you’re right on the number 9 being uncommon, but I doubt they would find it shocking if the girl were physically mature (ie, at the age of menstruation).

On reflection, I think what’s going on here is that a lot of us are forgetting what a luxury childhood is. The entire concept of a childhood simply does not exist in harsh economic conditions like it does in more developed societies.

And there’s the OP comparing a marriage, with the consent of the girl’s parents, resulting in a lifelong obligation of care to a kidnapper-murderer. That’s just over the top by any measure.
 
hamba2han said:
How do you know that Aisha (ra) was 9 at the time her marriage was consumated?

If you a referring to a hadith to back up your claim, then why do you choose to believe that particular hadith and not other hadiths regarding the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?
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Hi hamba2han,

Do you know how old Aisha was when her marriage was consumated?
 
Marriage at such young ages wasn’t uncommon in that kind of society, infact you only have to go back as far as 19th Century America to find girls being married at 10 years old being perfectly acceptable. A point to remember is that Muhammad (saaw) was surrounded by people who absolutely hated his guts at the time he married Aisha and would do anything to insult and discredit him, yet nobody ever objected to his marriage with Aisha or saw anything wrong with it. Why would that be?

What’s more, Aisha lived into her 60s and always spoke fondly of the Prophet throughout her life. Her personality starks a contrast, as she was a very strong, independent, outspoken and somewhat fiesty woman. Nothing remotely like what you’d expect from a victim of abuse.
 
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