Albert Einstein Defended the CC's Wartime Record

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ConfusedTim

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I did not know the fact that:

Albert Einstein vigorously defended the Catholic Church as the only institution in Nazi Germany that “stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth”.

catholicherald.co.uk/features/f0000411.shtml

Some things are just not presented to you in the media. I wonder why that is…
 
It’s not strictly true.

The Einstein quote was from Time in 1940 and would appear to really be talking about the period of Hitler’s rise to power.

This doesn’t mean that he might have been complementary or critical of the Church’s activities afterwards, just that, on both sides of the ‘Pius was wonderful/Pius was naughty’ industries, some greater precision wouldn’t harm.
 
Kaninchen said:
It’s not strictly true.

The Einstein quote was from Time in 1940 and would appear to really be talking about the period of Hitler’s rise to power.

This doesn’t mean that he might have been complementary or critical of the Church’s activities afterwards, just that, on both sides of the ‘Pius was wonderful/Pius was naughty’ industries, some greater precision wouldn’t harm.
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Ha ha…Nice ‘twist.’!

Einy, acknowledges Pius’ vociferous protests against Nazism during ‘its’ rise to power and prompted Hitler’s rally against The Church! Facts are in the news of the times.

:cool:
 
Since the Sixties most of the evidence in defence of Pius has been unearthed by Jewish historians, most notably by Pinchas Lapide who used Yad Vashem’s records to show that the Church under Pius saved up to 850,000 lives - more than all the international agencies put together.

I also didnt know this point.
 
Deconi said:
Ha ha…Nice ‘twist.’!

Einy, acknowledges Pius’ vociferous protests against Nazism during ‘its’ rise to power and prompted Hitler’s rally against The Church! Facts are in the news of the times.

:cool:
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Which Pius would that be?
 
ConfusedTim said:
Since the Sixties most of the evidence in defence of Pius has been unearthed by Jewish historians, most notably by Pinchas Lapide who used Yad Vashem’s records to show that the Church under Pius saved up to 850,000 lives - more than all the international agencies put together.

I also didnt know this point.
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You see, here we have a typical example - what evidence, other than Pinchas Lapide’s statement, is there for this (he never made clear how he arrived at the total)? Answer, none whatsoever and the fact that 1.9 billion references can be found on the ‘Catholic Internet’ to it won’t make it true - neither will books quoting Lapide’s figures.

Only establishing Lapide’s figures could do that - no serious historian of the era would agree with them for one very good reason, they’re, actually, impossible.

Does this mean that many lives weren’t saved by ‘righteous gentiles’, including many brave Catholics, or that Pius wasn’t involved in saving a considerable number? No it doesn’t.

You see, I think Pius XII did the best he could while between a rock and a hard place. On the other hand, making claims about him that are in error (like Einstein and the war), or Lapide, really works against what you’re trying to achieve.
 
An excellent book about this very subject is *The Myth of Hitler’s Pope *by David G. Dalin. Lest anyone think Dalin wrote from a Catholic bias, I should point out he is a rabbi.
 
Kaninchen said:
You see, here we have a typical example - what evidence, other than Pinchas Lapide’s statement, is there for this (he never made clear how he arrived at the total)? Answer, none whatsoever and the fact that 1.9 billion references can be found on the ‘Catholic Internet’ to it won’t make it true - neither will books quoting Lapide’s figures.

Only establishing Lapide’s figures could do that - no serious historian of the era would agree with them for one very good reason, they’re, actually, impossible.

Does this mean that many lives weren’t saved by ‘righteous gentiles’, including many brave Catholics, or that Pius wasn’t involved in saving a considerable number? No it doesn’t.

You see, I think Pius XII did the best he could while between a rock and a hard place. On the other hand, making claims about him that are in error (like Einstein and the war), or Lapide, really works against what you’re trying to achieve.
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Maybe this helps?? An article from the Jewish Virtual Library.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html
 
alexsean said:
Maybe this helps?? An article from the Jewish Virtual Library.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html
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Which is not a JVL article, it’s the JVL being ‘even-handed’ and including ‘Catholic defenses’ - including the 860,000 claim. The main article is somewhat different.

I don’t really want to get into a row about the 860,000 - there have been far too many threads on the subject already (!) - but it really isn’t sustainable.

Let me stress that I’m not one of Pius XII’s critics, the most critical thing I’ve ever said about him is that whether he could have done more or not is ‘debatable’ but he was in a ‘rock and a hard place’ situation - which is something even a Catholic might say - we’ll never know.
 
Hello all, let us not forget that there were many groups which were targeted by the Nazis genocidal policies. “The Holocaust Chronicles” puts the various figures at-

Total Deaths From Nazi Genocidal Policies:
European Jews: 5,600,000 to 6,250,00
Soviet POW : 3,000,000
Polish Catholics: 3,000,000
Serbians 700,000
Roma,Sinti, Lalleri 222,000 to 250,000
Germans {political, religious, resistance} 80,000
Germans { handicap} 70,000
Homosexuals 12,000
Jehovah’s Witnesses 2500
I researched the figure on polish Catholics, and I figure that the real figure may actually be closer to 1.5 to 2 million.

The main point being it is entirely possible that amongst these all of these that a figure of roughly 600,000 to 850,000 could have survived under the protection of the Church and its followers, though I still need to devote far more research to the subject.

Hope this is of some help to someone, or at least makes for some good discussion.
Cheers-
Scout
 
scout64 said:
Hello all, let us not forget that there were many groups which were targeted by the Nazis genocidal policies.
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Indeed, the ultimate aim was to annihilate or turn into slaves all Slavs as well (since their countries - including Western Russia - were to become the eastern section of the Greater German Reich, populated by Germans). The Polish Catholics, by the way, weren’t killed because they were Catholics but because they were ‘subhuman’ Poles.

I wish you well in your investigations but be very careful in accepting numbers quoted as being saved in Eastern Europe particularly - how they survived is much more complex than it may seem.
 
Kaninchen said:
Which is not a JVL article, it’s the JVL being ‘even-handed’ and including ‘Catholic defenses’ - including the 860,000 claim. The main article is somewhat different.

I don’t really want to get into a row about the 860,000 - there have been far too many threads on the subject already (!) - but it really isn’t sustainable.

Let me stress that I’m not one of Pius XII’s critics, the most critical thing I’ve ever said about him is that whether he could have done more or not is ‘debatable’ but he was in a ‘rock and a hard place’ situation - which is something even a Catholic might say - we’ll never know.
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Matey, the Church and Her exemplaries, Pius in this case, are no strangers to negative press, propaganda, anti and biased views. The matter of WW2 is no exception and it used to irk the dickens outta me why “She” never, ever, defended Herself during or since!

I have known for decades most of the truth of what went on during the war due to a ‘uniqueness’ of my family dynamics. (Germans / Italians / Pasificas - soldiers & clergymen)

I know you are not ‘openly’ challenging the integrity of Pius but by implication you are casting colour on accounts, now (well) known, vindicating The Vatican, Pius and the Church for that sorry period of human history! The Jews who were there and their offsprings REMEMBER well what Pius did. Their testamonies at his death and rememberance day 2008 should serve against your bias.

860,000 is a rough estimate and probably only close to the ‘accountable’ figure.

Funny, the first time my father heard the 6million figure killed by Nazis he wondered how the population of Ireland, Scotland, New Zealand and the entire South Pacific could be erased from existence yet flourish within a generation to fight Egypt and the surrounding Arabs to a standstill. Were they using babies as soldiers? Not that he denies the hundreds of thousands and probable million, maybe two, who suffered death at the hands of his countrymen!

:cool:
 
JD_799 said:
Conversation is not over. I remember hearing about the topic of Pope Pious being canonized, and the Jewish community got irate. Food for thought.
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The conversation with that particular poster was over from the first word of his post.

I’ve said nothing against Pius in the whole thread - sometimes I think that doubting anything about Pius is taken as trashing the man, which it is not.

In some ways the ‘canonization’ thing is a problem in talking to Catholics about the subject because, once somebody is becoming a ‘Saint’, raising any question about any claim made about him becomes ‘attacking him’ or attacking the Church.

The result of that is that conversations will end up being ‘between Catholics’ (hagiography) and ‘between everybody else’.
 
Kaninchen said:
The conversation with that particular poster was over from the first word of his post.

I’ve said nothing against Pius in the whole thread - sometimes I think that doubting anything about Pius is taken as trashing the man, which it is not.

In some ways the ‘canonization’ thing is a problem in talking to Catholics about the subject because, once somebody is becoming a ‘Saint’, raising any question about any claim made about him becomes ‘attacking him’ or attacking the Church.

The result of that is that conversations will end up being ‘between Catholics’ (hagiography) and ‘between everybody else’.
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Nice dodge!

Pius has been thrashed for decades! Your innuendos won’t figure in the ocean of anti-Pius verbiage nor make a difference either way. What is happening, without a word from him, is that the evidence from all fronts vidicate him. The man has never, ever, spoken a word in his defence.

I for one am quite comfortable to discuss him at length despite obvious evidence he would not approve of it!

Einy spoke for the church more than Pius did! That is no slight on the Pope, but a glimpse of his humility!

Conversation may end at the first word since you will not be able to hold it past that.

:cool:
 
Brickmaker said:
Matey ??:confused: Aren’t you taking a lot for granted? Why not address the poster, civilly, by her CAF handle?
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Matey. mon ami, friend, brother, uso, mate, buddy, pal, amigo, Mein Liebe…

What are you, the “civil” Police?!

:cool:
 
Deconi said:
Matey. mon ami, friend, brother, uso, mate, buddy, pal, amigo, Mein Liebe…

What are you, the “civil” Police?!

:cool:
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Well I am civil (usually) and I am police…😉

And using terms of familiarity with other posters is taking a lot for granted and is definitely not :cool:
 
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