C
CarpeNoctemAMDG
Guest
I am currently discussing the Church with a lady and she insists that the Church is responsible for a great amount of bloodshed and murder and torture. Her biggest example of this is the albegensian Crusade.
Much of what she has stated seems to be taken directly from a book, large amounts of text written in a historical fashion. I will include all of the text.
I am not sure where to even begin. What can I say, especially historically (as she is not at all sympathetic to the Church and is very anti-Catholic) to show that the Church has never been an advocate of murder and torture but that it is truely a gracefilled and holy institution?
the text she sent me follows:
Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) was concerned with the growing influence of Catharism, and saw that it threatened the authority of the Church. He saw the movement as a heresy that needed to be eliminated, as were Arianism and Manichaenism in earlier times. In 1204, Innocent III tasked Abbot Arnaud-Amaury [Arnold-Amalric], head of the Cistercian Order, to be a special legate to investigate Catharism in Languedoc. The papal legate used the cloister in the monstery of Fontfroide as his main outpost. Some regular clerics were also sent by the pope. One from Spain was Domingo de Guzmán, the future St. Dominic and founder of the Dominican Order. Domingo attempted to apply the Cathar’s austere methods in his promotion of orthodox Christanity, and he had some success in converting a few Cathars. The progress was inadequate, and the Church decided to use force to either convert or to eliminate the declared heretic followers of Catharism.
The pope asked Philippe II Auguste, the French king (and a cousin to comte Raymond VI de Toulouse), to take action against high nobles in southern France who permitted Cathars to openly practice their faith. Philippe II did not comply, as he was facing a more direct threat from an alliance of the English king, Flemish nobles and the German Emperor. [See link to Bouvines War at the end of this webpage.]
In 1206, the pope’s legate, Amaury, sent his assistant, another Cistercian monk, Pierre de Castelnau, to Provence to form a league of knights to fight Catharism. Castelnau invited comte Raymond VI of Toulouse to lead this host. Raymond saw no value in such a campaign against this community that was widely spread and well ingranied in his lands. He rejected the “idea of waging war on his own subjects,” and Castelnau called for Raymond VI’s excommunication. The pope ratified the excommunication of Raymond in May 1207. On 13 January 1208, Raymond met with Pierre de Castelnau at Saint-Gilles, in Provence. The monk and Raymond argued and exchanged threats.
The next morning (14 January), Pierre de Castelnau was assassinated as he was departing the town. His assassin was believed to have been an agent of comte Raymond VI. Pope Innocent III reacted by proclaiming a crusade against the ‘sinister race’ of Languedoc. His Bull offered indulgences for combatants declared that the heretics’ lands were open to be taken. This latter offer enticed many knights from far who needed, or merely sought more land.
One such French knight was Simon IV de Montfort l’Amaury, (1165-1218), who was disinherited from his uncle’s estates of Lecicester, in England, by king John I in 1207. Simon IV was a minor lord in the Chevreuse Valley (in the modern Seine-et-Oise region) of France. He had departed with in the Fourth Crusade in 1202, but refused to participate in the attack upon Constantinople instead of Jerusalem. The pope’s offer of confiscated lands inspired Simon IV de Montfort to go south with many other northern French knights in the crusades against the Cathars.
Much of what she has stated seems to be taken directly from a book, large amounts of text written in a historical fashion. I will include all of the text.
I am not sure where to even begin. What can I say, especially historically (as she is not at all sympathetic to the Church and is very anti-Catholic) to show that the Church has never been an advocate of murder and torture but that it is truely a gracefilled and holy institution?
the text she sent me follows:
Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) was concerned with the growing influence of Catharism, and saw that it threatened the authority of the Church. He saw the movement as a heresy that needed to be eliminated, as were Arianism and Manichaenism in earlier times. In 1204, Innocent III tasked Abbot Arnaud-Amaury [Arnold-Amalric], head of the Cistercian Order, to be a special legate to investigate Catharism in Languedoc. The papal legate used the cloister in the monstery of Fontfroide as his main outpost. Some regular clerics were also sent by the pope. One from Spain was Domingo de Guzmán, the future St. Dominic and founder of the Dominican Order. Domingo attempted to apply the Cathar’s austere methods in his promotion of orthodox Christanity, and he had some success in converting a few Cathars. The progress was inadequate, and the Church decided to use force to either convert or to eliminate the declared heretic followers of Catharism.
The pope asked Philippe II Auguste, the French king (and a cousin to comte Raymond VI de Toulouse), to take action against high nobles in southern France who permitted Cathars to openly practice their faith. Philippe II did not comply, as he was facing a more direct threat from an alliance of the English king, Flemish nobles and the German Emperor. [See link to Bouvines War at the end of this webpage.]
In 1206, the pope’s legate, Amaury, sent his assistant, another Cistercian monk, Pierre de Castelnau, to Provence to form a league of knights to fight Catharism. Castelnau invited comte Raymond VI of Toulouse to lead this host. Raymond saw no value in such a campaign against this community that was widely spread and well ingranied in his lands. He rejected the “idea of waging war on his own subjects,” and Castelnau called for Raymond VI’s excommunication. The pope ratified the excommunication of Raymond in May 1207. On 13 January 1208, Raymond met with Pierre de Castelnau at Saint-Gilles, in Provence. The monk and Raymond argued and exchanged threats.
The next morning (14 January), Pierre de Castelnau was assassinated as he was departing the town. His assassin was believed to have been an agent of comte Raymond VI. Pope Innocent III reacted by proclaiming a crusade against the ‘sinister race’ of Languedoc. His Bull offered indulgences for combatants declared that the heretics’ lands were open to be taken. This latter offer enticed many knights from far who needed, or merely sought more land.
One such French knight was Simon IV de Montfort l’Amaury, (1165-1218), who was disinherited from his uncle’s estates of Lecicester, in England, by king John I in 1207. Simon IV was a minor lord in the Chevreuse Valley (in the modern Seine-et-Oise region) of France. He had departed with in the Fourth Crusade in 1202, but refused to participate in the attack upon Constantinople instead of Jerusalem. The pope’s offer of confiscated lands inspired Simon IV de Montfort to go south with many other northern French knights in the crusades against the Cathars.