Alcohol and the Catholic Church

[Scottgun]

A waste of time that will be, my friend.

Then we must assume my point is valid and not overthrown.

 

[OneForTruth]

Then we must assume my point is valid and not overthrown.

Ofcourse - you keep believing that.

 

[Scottgun]

Ofcourse - you keep believing that.

It’s not a matter of believing. I made a valid argument. You said beer at a church social function was wrong and invoked temptation. I made the point that this does not work because it excludes too much if taken to its logical conclusion. Perhaps my argument is not air-tight, but I don’t think it can be casually dismissed like this.

 

[blessedtoo]

I totally dislike attending Catholic socials or dinners because of the smell of the alcohol. I simply can’t have a good time when I’m gagging.

I’ve never attended a Catholic social or dinner at the Parish that included alcohol. Our Parish offers dinners every day and booze is not available.

How would YOU all like it if I invited you to a PEEPS party and you had to sit and watch me and other Peeps lovers eat Peep after Peep! Wouldn’t it make you gag?!

That is a poor analogy. Peeps are gross - nothing but sugar and corn syrup. There is no health benefit to eating junk. Wine, and certain other alcoholic beverages are not only quite tasty but helpful for the digestion. And to answer your question, I wouldn’t gag. I might question your food choices, but I wouldn’t refuse to attend or make others feel they are doing something wrong.

That’s the way I feel about alcohol. Yuck. Fermented grain. Eugh.

Personal opinion. We should all have respect for other’s opinions.

I don’t think there’s ever been a drunk driver who knew they were drunk when they got behind the wheel. But people who only drink a few beers can be killers, too. You don’t have to be **** drunk to make a fatal driving error.

The problem here is not drinking. The problem is drinking and driving. It is, by the way, a crime to drink and drive. It is also a crime to drink when you are underage. Public drunkeness can also be a crime, if a disturbance is created. There are laws to help prevent tragedies such as drunk driving accidents.

Is it WORTH IT? Is drinking really so pleasurable that you’re willing to take a chance on killing or hurting someone?! Is it really?!

If driving is not involved, there is no risk.

My God, I’m sure missing out. And I thought that pleasure meant sex with my husband, or sitting around the dinner table with my daughters, or watching a good, tough skating competition, or writing another novel.

All wonderful things! Why must they be done to the exclusion of other things?

Here is something else to think about. For a certain percentage of people, alcohol in any amount is a sin, and to be around others who must drink to enjoy themselves is torment for them. Why would you put this temptation in someone’s way? Of course the decision to pick up that bottle isn’t yours, it’s theirs. But how could you live with yourself if your drinking caused someone susceptible to alcohol addiction to get off the wagon and start drinking again? Is drinking so pleasurable you, that you are willing to put someone else in danger?

Personal responsibility is the key. I am a recovering alcoholic who hasn’t had a drink in ages and ages. My sobriety is NOT dependent on whether folks around me are drinking. If it were, I’d be in big trouble.

Again, if the answer is yes, drinking is that pleasurable, then I guess I’ll have to totally re-adjust my idea of what’s pleasurable in this life. Tippling fermented grain and fruit vs. attending a great play, taking a road trip, or reading a gripping novel.

Some people find reading a gripping novel WHILE sipping a good Cabernet to be extremely pleasurable. And no one gets hurt!

And think about this. Many Protestants, especially the fundamentalists and evangelicals (although evangelicals are drinking alcohol nowadays) will not even take a little look at Catholicism because they believe that drinking is wrong, and if a church allows drinking, then the church can’t possibly be a true Christian church.

They would be wrong.

The Bible says that we should not put a stumbling block in front of people, and that we shouldn’t hurt people for the sake of our stomachs. Those of you who drink–are you willing to give it up if it would allow a soul to enter the True Church?

Declaring a prohibition on alcohol, which is not scripturally based or traditionally based, would not be removing a “stumbling block” because there is no stumbling block. If Protestants are reluctant to consider the RCC because of their misguided theology regarding alcohol, it is up to them to remove their stumbling block.

One more question to think about. What’s the big deal about giving up alcohol? If the idea bothers you so much, are you absolutely certain that you aren’t addicted?

People who have trouble with alcohol should give it up. People who do not, should not feel they must.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I will say, I know many people who have alcohol problems and it is at the root of other problems

Well, which came first? The chicken or the egg? Do people with other problems USE alcohol to compensate? And then alcohol exacerbates what is already there, maybe? If you took away the alcohol, would they still have the other problems anyway?

I have a problem with doing away with something like alcohol because it is a stumbling block to Protestants. Because we don’t change other things just because they are wrong on the subject of the pope, or divorce, or birth control. Alcohol is not the only stumbling block to dialogue.

What about food addicts? Should we do away with bake sales after church or Fall Festivals with barbequed chicken at the church because some people don’t know when to stop eating, and raise children who are also obese? Shall we all give up food completely because some people are overweight and are destroying their health, furniture and costing our medical system many millions? How many car accidents are caused by someone eating french fries or a burger who missed a stop sign?

Maybe the problem, as one person said, is our culture. So many take a good idea and pursue it to wretched excess. Whether it’s alcohol or food. Or the size of tv screens. Or the fact that we have a good movie and then have Sequel II, Sequel III, Sequel IV, Sequel V and so on, ad nauseam.

This all reminds me of a joke:

A Catholic and a Baptist were talking about their faith. The Baptist said “We don’t drink in our church.” The Catholic asked, “Why not?” The Baptist said, “Because when people get together, and they drink, then they start to relax and feel good. And the men look at the women and the women look at the men. And they start to smile, and then they start to play music. And then the men go over to the women, and everyone is feeling good, and they begin to hold hands… and you know what that can lead to.”
The Catholic says, “What?”
The Baptist says, “Dancin’!”

Long ago I remember chuckling at Ronald Reagan who quoted a definition of Puritan he had once heard. Pardon if this is only the gist of it. “A puritan is someone who just knows that somewhere out there someone is having a good time, and the thought makes him furious.”

Christ changed water into wine. He didn’t change it into apple juice. What’s good enough for my savior is good enough for me.

 

[Scottgun]

Declaring a prohibition on alcohol, which is not scripturally based or traditionally based, would not be removing a “stumbling block” because there is no stumbling block. If Protestants are reluctant to consider the RCC because of their misguided theology regarding alcohol, it is up to them to remove their stumbling block.

Good points all and I would add that on this point it cuts both ways. For everyone with a pet peeve against alcohol, I’ll bet there is someone who’d like to join the Church, but hopes that everyone is not so tightly wound up that they can’t sit down with them and enjoy a beer once and awhile, so it’s a wash.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

With drunkenness being a “mortal sin” - it is wrong for the CC to have beer tents at their functions. Some people have a sin nature such that they fall prey to this temptation. To then throw that in their face when “mortal sin” is at stake is wrong. Let’s bring in a prostitution tent too…!!!

I have never been to a CC function that had a beer tent. But it’s unreasonable to think that everyone must remove every temptation at church. What of those who are tempted to steal, and the Church mercilessly passes a basket full of money right under their very noses every Sunday at Holy Mass itself??! Saints deliver us!

And what of those tempted to impurity? The church is full of women! Other people’s wives and husbands! We have to remove that temptation immediately. To throw good looking women in some man’s face when mortal sin is at stake is wrong!

Now, lest we let the slothful off the hook, all to many priests give boring sermons, tempting many in the pew to nod off during Mass. This is an abomination.

And the worst of all, the church parking lot! Jesus, Mary and Joseph help us! That is the worst temptation of all! A prime source of anger. We must do away with them now.

Sin is always the misuse of something inherently good. It is the distortion of God’s creation. Satan doesn’t tempt us with stuff that is disgusting and repellant. That wouldn’t work! No. He tempts us with the goods of this world in a way that God didn’t design them to be used, in quantities or manners that are not in keeping with our human dignity.

That does not remove the underlying goodness of His Creation. He did not look at the world and say “It is good. Except for that grape arbor over there. That was a mistake.”

And how can we exercise virtue if there is no opportunity to vice? The ability to live in prudence and temperance is pleasing to God. Some people drive their cars too fast and cause accidents. Should we all renounce driving because some people do so recklessly and maim and kill?

 

[Teflon93]

I don’t drink alcohol.

Alcohol use was a huge barrier me to join the Catholic Church. It is probably the biggest “con” in my list of pros and cons, and to this day, the alcohol “con” is still on my list, while all the other cons are gone.

I eventually decided to ignore the alcohol “con” and join the Catholic Church, but to this day, I totally dislike attending Catholic socials or dinners because of the smell of the alcohol. I simply can’t have a good time when I’m gagging.

How would YOU all like it if I invited you to a PEEPS party and you had to sit and watch me and other Peeps lovers eat Peep after Peep! Wouldn’t it make you gag?!

That’s the way I feel about alcohol. Yuck. Fermented grain. Eugh.

But if that’s what you want out of life, go for it. Just don’t kill or maim one of my kids in a alcohol-related accident, or you will find yourself at the Pearly Gates.

That’s ONE reason why I wish Catholics didn’t drink. There are a lot of people who CLAIM that they don’t get drunk, but they do, and then they go driving, and then they kill people. And then other people who are the survivers get so angry that they want to kill the drunk driver. That’s a whole lot of mortal sin going on for the sake of a few glasses of fermented grain.

I don’t think there’s ever been a drunk driver who knew they were drunk when they got behind the wheel. But people who only drink a few beers can be killers, too. You don’t have to be **** drunk to make a fatal driving error.

Is it WORTH IT? Is drinking really so pleasurable that you’re willing to take a chance on killing or hurting someone?! Is it really?!

My God, I’m sure missing out. And I thought that pleasure meant sex with my husband, or sitting around the dinner table with my daughters, or watching a good, tough skating competition, or writing another novel.

Here is something else to think about. For a certain percentage of people, alcohol in any amount is a sin, and to be around others who must drink to enjoy themselves is torment for them. Why would you put this temptation in someone’s way? Of course the decision to pick up that bottle isn’t yours, it’s theirs. But how could you live with yourself if your drinking caused someone susceptible to alcohol addiction to get off the wagon and start drinking again? Is drinking so pleasurable you, that you are willing to put someone else in danger?

Again, if the answer is yes, drinking is that pleasurable, then I guess I’ll have to totally re-adjust my idea of what’s pleasurable in this life. Tippling fermented grain and fruit vs. attending a great play, taking a road trip, or reading a gripping novel.

And think about this. Many Protestants, especially the fundamentalists and evangelicals (although evangelicals are drinking alcohol nowadays) will not even take a little look at Catholicism because they believe that drinking is wrong, and if a church allows drinking, then the church can’t possibly be a true Christian church.

The Bible says that we should not put a stumbling block in front of people, and that we shouldn’t hurt people for the sake of our stomachs. Those of you who drink–are you willing to give it up if it would allow a soul to enter the True Church?

I realize that you can’t KNOW that your abstaining might lead someone to take Catholicism seriously. But why not offer it to God and say, “I would like to offer this up with the intention of seeing souls saved.”

One more question to think about. What’s the big deal about giving up alcohol? If the idea bothers you so much, are you absolutely certain that you aren’t addicted?

So was Christ wrong to change water into wine, and to offer wine at the Last Supper?

Do you think perhaps you might be in danger of replacing Christ with a God of Temperance?

 

[DixiesFinest]

For years Baptists and other have been telling us that alcohol is evil. They’ve denied that Jesus drank wine, and said it was “unfermented grape juice.” Now, many have come to realize that that is baloney, and have admitted that alcohol is not intrinsically evil. However, they maintain that it is wrong in this day and age to drink alcohol.

Here, I think they have a point.

I hate alcohol almost as much as I hate pornography, because of the evil that I see it inflict. And I wonder if in the 21st century it is ever moral for us (at least Americans and Europeans) to ever drink alcohol. Here’s why:

• It is not as necessary to drink it as it was in Jesus’ time, we have plenty of other drinks available
• The criteria for “drunkenness”-which is mortally sinful-was visible drunkenness, not BAC (obviously)
• But Jesus’ time did not have cars, guns, and latex condoms which would lead to drunk driving, shootings, and promiscuity
• Even a small amount of alcohol increases one’s propensity to commit the above actions
• Even a small amount of alcohol can lead to driving fatalities, or birth defects in pregnant women
• The culture that is associated with alcohol is usually one of drunkeness and promiscuity, other mortal sins
• Otherwise faithful Catholics commit these sins due to alcohol
• Alcohol increases likelihood of domestic violence
• 18.7 million Americans (7.7% of the population) are dependent on or abuse alcohol
• AA has 2 million members
• Consuming alcohol at casual social situations like sporting events has led to an increase in violence
• The image that many beer companies promote is one that ignores the negative consequences and often uses women as sex-objects
• Children are often able to drink at a young age, and as a consequent, leads them into other dangerous behaviors, esp. promiscuity
• The abundance of the availability of alcohol today versus Jesus’ time has greatly magnified the above concerns

Given the above points, is there any real reason why Catholics should condone the consumption of alcohol?

I am noticing a trend in your points against alcohol…you keep saying “But Jesus’ time did not have cars, guns, and latex condoms which would lead to drunk driving, shootings, and promiscuity”…these things do not cause people to sin, people sin. We are responsible for our choices, all of our choices. We cannot say that some object made us sin, no more than we can say “the devil made me do it.”

 

[DixiesFinest]

OR you could have said that I’m from Boston and therefore I hate firearms and I think we should all burn them all, which yes, would be a better solution. The second amendment is irrelevant and misinterpreted by the NRA and it’s followers. There are millions of other americans who agree. But that’s beside the point…

Apparently we are from two very different areas of the country…

CSA.

 

[ElliottWright]

Having read the opening article I am shocked by how presumptious people are over Europeans. Yes, The British have an awful binge drinking culture and their legal limit is 18, where as in Italy no alcoholic related problems are prominent and their legal limit is fourteen.
The main cause of alcohol related problems relates back to ancient ancestry, becuase wine was readily available around the mediterranean before Christ, the Romans and other ancient civilisations would drink it all year round moderately, however, in Britain and Germany with their ancient cultures not necessarily been uncivilised but not having the ability to prodice alcohol all year round would binge rik when the stuff became available and therefore we have the problems today its almost in thes epeoples genes.
This now relates in to the Catholic Church, the medieval church and early church never had a problem with alcohol becuase it was at its strongest and mainly loctaed around the mediterranean and therefore alcohol related problems where not ingrained in the society. Where did Protestantism pop up in northern europe where these binge drinking cultures had been ingrained and therefore they combatted the problem with their rleigious doctrine.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

“But Jesus’ time did not have cars, guns, and latex condoms which would lead to drunk driving, shootings, and promiscuity”…

It’s true. There really is nothing new under the sun, Dixie’sFinest.

In Jesus’s time they had chariots that probably thundered down cobblestone or dirt streets and ran over slow-moving people. They did not have guns, but they had rocks and knives and arrows. The first murder was committed with nary a gun in sight. And while they may not have had latex condoms, it can be inferred from historical writings that there was no end to pharmacological means of contraception and early abortion during the first century A.D. And there was certainly adultery and promiscuity during Christ’s time, as the woman thrown at his feet would attest.

We are not made impure and defiled by external things that we ingest. All those sins of gluttony, drunkeness, hatred, impurity… all of it comes from within. Says so. Right in the Bible.

 

[FCEGM]

Having read the opening article I am shocked by how presumptious people are over Europeans. Yes, The British have an awful binge drinking culture and their legal limit is 18, where as in Italy no alcoholic related problems are prominent and their legal limit is fourteen.
The main cause of alcohol related problems relates back to ancient ancestry, becuase wine was readily available around the mediterranean before Christ, the Romans and other ancient civilisations would drink it all year round moderately, however, in Britain and Germany with their ancient cultures not necessarily been uncivilised but not having the ability to prodice alcohol all year round would binge rik when the stuff became available and therefore we have the problems today its almost in thes epeoples genes.
This now relates in to the Catholic Church, the medieval church and early church never had a problem with alcohol becuase it was at its strongest and mainly loctaed around the mediterranean and therefore alcohol related problems where not ingrained in the society. Where did Protestantism pop up in northern europe where these binge drinking cultures had been ingrained and therefore they combatted the problem with their rleigious doctrine.

As Hilaire Belloc observed:

*Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino! *

 

[Liberanosamalo]

That’s AWESOME! I’m stealin’ it!

 

[lsu]

ABostonCatholic thank you for your for your post.

If I knew then what I know now I would have never become catholic.

to many double standars

How many of you good catholics went to church and receive the body of christ this weekend,knowing you were drunk the night before I know one for sure my godmother

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Isu, just because you don’t like the teacher, that doesn’t mean 2 + 2 doesn’t still equal 4.

Don’t ever evaluate the beauty of Catholicism by those who fall short. Imagine how much worse they would be if they WEREN’T Catholics! Judge the Church by her saints.

Would you want the sum total of your life to be judged by your mistakes, or by your successes?

If the only good thing your godmother does in her life was to help you to the church, then thank her for that and become a saint yourself!

Peace.

 

[DixiesFinest]

ABostonCatholic thank you for your for your post.

If I knew then what I know now I would have never become catholic.

to many double standars

How many of you good catholics went to church and receive the body of christ this weekend,knowing you were drunk the night before I know one for sure my godmother

Name me a double standard. Please, I am dying to know.

 

[cecilia97]

Here is your error. These statistics are for America. France, Italy and other European where people learn to drink responsibly from an early, do not seem to have these alcohol related behaviours.

Perhaps it is the Culture in the U.S., rather than alcohol, that is the source of these problems.

And that they’re not even statistics, they’re opinions. I live in the US and have strong doubts about most of the OP.

I agree with your point about a responsible attitude toward alcohol. It can happen in the US too, I think it’s a function of your parents’ attitude toward it. Growing up Catholic in the US, my parents took away the “glamour” of alcohol by (horrors!) allowing us some wine at special family dinners from the age of about 13. We never saw a parent drunk, but we saw them enjoy a drink responsibly.

Sadly, who were the girls notorious for dancing topless on tables at parties freshman year at my university? The girls whose parents were tee-totalers, who had gotten the impression that drinking was something fun and rebellious to do once they broke away from home…because, hee hee, mommy and daddy would never know.

 

[kdmay68]

I don’t drink alcohol.

Your personal choice.

Alcohol use was a huge barrier me to join the Catholic Church. It is probably the biggest “con” in my list of pros and cons, and to this day, the alcohol “con” is still on my list, while all the other cons are gone.

So it would seem that you considered drinking to be wrong (sinful?) BEFORE becoming catholic. Does this mean you were a fundamentalist? Coming from a fundamentalist backgroung myself, I know that drinking (even a glass of wine) was considered a sin (along with dancing, palying cards, going to the movies, etc…) However, no one (fundamentalist or otherwise) could ever demonstrate from the BIble that drinking was a sin. Gluttony is also called a sin, but does that make eating a sin? Yes, St Paul said not to cause another to stumble. Does that mean if I have dinner with someone who is obese from gluttony that I am causing them to sin? Do I cause them to stumble by eating in front of them?

Is it WORTH IT? Is drinking really so pleasurable that you’re willing to take a chance on killing or hurting someone?! Is it really?!

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that one should not drive after they have been drinking and NO ONE on this forum is suggesting it is o.k. to drink and drive. If someone drinks and drives, they are guilty of poor judgement and lack of self-control. But if I want to have a couple beers in the evening before going to bed when I know I am not going to be driving, what is your argument then?

My God, I’m sure missing out.

Some would consider this taking the Lord’s name in vain.

Why would you put this temptation in someone’s way? Of course the decision to pick up that bottle isn’t yours, it’s theirs. But how could you live with yourself if your drinking caused someone susceptible to alcohol addiction to get off the wagon and start drinking again? Is drinking so pleasurable you, that you are willing to put someone else in danger?

Why were the people drinking at the wedding in Cana? It seems they were drinking at the wedding feast to enjoy themselves! And Jesus performed His firs miracle by creating more wine! What if caused someone to become an alcoholic!

Again, if the answer is yes, drinking is that pleasurable, then I guess I’ll have to totally re-adjust my idea of what’s pleasurable in this life.

Again, the wedding participants were drinking wine out of PLEASURE! And Jesus made MORE wine when they ran out!

Many Protestants, especially the fundamentalists and evangelicals (although evangelicals are drinking alcohol nowadays) will not even take a little look at Catholicism because they believe that drinking is wrong,

So your going to base it on what the those of Korah’s rebellion see as sinful? They also see praying to Mary and the saints as idolatry, the Mass as blasphemy, reject the Pope as the successor to St Peter and say the sacraments and priesthood are “inventions.” Are these things also sin because they cause protestants to stumble?

The Bible says that we should not put a stumbling block in front of people, and that we shouldn’t hurt people for the sake of our stomachs. Those of you who drink–are you willing to give it up if it would allow a soul to enter the True Church?

Are you willing to give up Holy Communion, confession, Mary and Saints if would cause a soul to come in? Yes, I know drinking isn’t a sacrament or doctrine, but the teachings of the RCC are a bigger stumbling block for those of Korah’s rebellion that alcohol.

One more question to think about. What’s the big deal about giving up alcohol? If the idea bothers you so much, are you absolutely certain that you aren’t addicted?

What’s the big deal about enjoying what God has sanctioned? There is NOTHING inherently evil about “fermented grain.” Are you going to look down your nose at Jesus for giving his disciples “fermented grain” at the last supper or throughout His ministry for that matter? There is NO prohibition against alcohol by Scripture or Holy Tradition or Church Magisterium. Drunkeness is a different matter.

It sounds like you came to catholisicm with a pre-conceived theology about alcohol influenced by those of Korah’s rebellion that CANNOT be found in Scripture. I do drink but I don’t get drunk. I don’t drink and drive and I don’t appreciate being lumped in with the “foolish” people who do. I wouldn’t have a problem giving it up if Christ were to suddenly reveal through the Church that it is now sin. However, I do have a problem with judgemental people engaging in personal judgemental theology trying to tell me that it is sin when it is not as long as it is done responsibly.

God Bless!

 

[mikijam]

I don’t drink alcohol.

Alcohol use was a huge barrier me to join the Catholic Church. It is probably the biggest “con” in my list of pros and cons, and to this day, the alcohol “con” is still on my list, while all the other cons are gone.

No one has addressed the wine at communion. I certainly respect your decision to not drink socially, but what about the Blood of our Savior? Do you not take communion under both species?

How would YOU all like it if I invited you to a PEEPS party and you had to sit and watch me and other Peeps lovers eat Peep after Peep! Wouldn’t it make you gag?!

ROTFL Wait a minute, I like peeps.