Alcohol at church functions

[Marfran]

Marfran, I know that you are speaking from a position of Love and I do not disagree that we could certainly have parish functions without alchohol. However, at least around here that is not likely to happen.

You say above that others are addressing “individual” behavior and you are looking at the societal aspects. Fair enough, except that EVERY behavior is personal. Every Sin is personal.

You say we must look at the potential harm to the community. We must also look at teh potential benefit. If one has a parish function with alchohol and more people come and give than do at function without alchohol there is a benefit to the community by having alchohol served.
The same argument can be made for having “Casino nights” as parish fundraisers. The vast majority of people who attend know how much they can gamble with and know full well that they are helping the parish AND having a pleasent time while doing it. It is also true that people who are addicted to Gambling might come and lose too much. Yet such fundraisers are generaly some of the most profitable parts of parish fundraising.

I think that everyone here recognizes that you are honest and sincere and asking a perfectly legitimate question. I hope that you recognize that we also recognize our obligations to assure that ANY part of ANY parish function is handled with appropriate care for the well being of all.

Peace
James

Well James, I like the tone of your post, or the understanding that you bring to ***my ***concerns. I am dismayed that other posters are so quick to defend alcohol at Church functions/events and attribute any problems/potential problems to INDIVIDUAL indiscretion/weakness, as matters for that individual only.

My main concerns are for the ***innocents ***who are harmed by alcohol, not so much for the individuals with the problems of alcoholism, addition, etc. Yes, it is a personal behavior that one needs to keep in check, but alcohol consumption or over consumption/abuse NOT only affects the individual but also affects the community.

I do not like my children seeing people drinking at Church functions. I am concerned that they will be enticed to engage in underage drinking themselves. Why not?? ALL the adults do it–everywhere–even at the Church events.

And the guy who tries to keep his problem in check, the guy who is not visible and hides his problem well, or does not even understand the depth of his problem–I am yes, concerned for him, but more so for the wife and children whom he will go home with after the Church event. And I am concerned for the man/woman who gets in the accident on the way home injuring another innocent person(s) including themselves.

I don’t like the responses where posters refer to the “limiting of freedoms” because I feel this is disingenuous. Omitting alcohol from a gathering is not limiting freedoms at all. I was, in fact at a gathering yesterday–of teenagers and parents (not associated with the Church, not a parish function) and I noticed that the beverage table had NO alcoholic beverages–only sodas and such. And NO MISSED not having beer or wine, etc. In fact, I have been to a lot of secular functions such as this, where there is NO alcohol served, and I wonder why my parish can’t go SANS the alcohol for similar events/gatherings.

To make myself clear, in my parish ALCOHOL is ***not sold ***for profit. Its presence at a function does not contrubute to income for the Church. Its presence does not bring in more people. I do understand that we are all responding to the topic here from some differing perspectives and differing types of parish events. Well there is a parish fundraiser here, where it is served (not sold), where children are not present, and I was told by a priest that having it served, gets people to be more generous with their wallets. I don’t have so much of a problem with that parish function–because there are NO children at that one.

I think that the parish carnivals/festivals are another situation. Again I know of a parish, not my own, that has a big one, that draws crowds from all over the city. They SELL alcohol, and make lots of money, have police presence and problems because of the alcohol/rowdy crowd etc. And I guess I don’t like that situation either, but what I really don’t like are the little parish events for only the parishioners, where they always have alcohol present. At my parish they can not even have a Budget meeting without alcohol.

So I see two somewhat different (but related) situations here: the myriad of parish events with alcohol not for profit, and fundraisers where it is served for profit and/or to increase profits from the event.

 

[JRKH]

Well James, I like the tone of your post, or the understanding that you bring to ***my ***concerns. I am dismayed that other posters are so quick to defend alcohol at Church functions/events and attribute any problems/potential problems to INDIVIDUAL indiscretion/weakness, as matters for that individual only.

My main concerns are for the ***innocents ***who are harmed by alcohol, not so much for the individuals with the problems of alcoholism, addition, etc. Yes, it is a personal behavior that one needs to keep in check, but alcohol consumption or over consumption/abuse NOT only affects the individual but also affects the community.

I would only make one modification to what you say here. That is the alcohol assumption may effect the entire community. Alcohol abuse remains a personal problem that can have repercussions in the commuity.

I do not like my children seeing people drinking at Church functions. I am concerned that they will be enticed to engage in underage drinking themselves. Why not?? ALL the adults do it–everywhere–even at the Church events.

Well, Why do you think that you children, watching adults properly enjoying alcohol will entice your children into underage drinking.
I, and everyone in my extended family, were exposed to drinking (primarily beer) from little on. In fact when we were very small we could get on mom or dad’s lap and get a sip of beer from their bottle. I even have a picture of myself at about 12-15 months getting a sip from my grandma’s bottle while on her lap. Now I am in my 50’s. I do not drink much at all. Not beer, not Wine, not hard liquor. None of my bothers and sisters do either.
This does not mean that we did not, as teenagers, experiment with drinking just as most every teen will. My point is simply that, if you expose your children to the responsible and open use of alcohol you give them a much better benchmark than they will get from their peers or from television or from any other place.

And the guy who tries to keep his problem in check, the guy who is not visible and hides his problem well, or does not even understand the depth of his problem–I am yes, concerned for him, but more so for the wife and children whom he will go home with after the Church event. And I am concerned for the man/woman who gets in the accident on the way home injuring another innocent person(s) including themselves.

Yes this is a legitimate concern. One that the community and family should help him with to the best of their ability - As an idividual.

I don’t like the responses where posters refer to the “limiting of freedoms” because I feel this is disingenuous. Omitting alcohol from a gathering is not limiting freedoms at all. I was, in fact at a gathering yesterday–of teenagers and parents (not associated with the Church, not a parish function) and I noticed that the beverage table had NO alcoholic beverages–only sodas and such. And NO MISSED not having beer or wine, etc. In fact, I have been to a lot of secular functions such as this, where there is NO alcohol served, and I wonder why my parish can’t go SANS the alcohol for similar events/gatherings.

I guess the only way to find this out is to ask those in your parish.

To make myself clear, in my parish ALCOHOL is ***not sold ***for profit. Its presence at a function does not contrubute to income for the Church. Its presence does not bring in more people. I do understand that we are all responding to the topic here from some differing perspectives and differing types of parish events. Well there is a parish fundraiser here, where it is served (not sold), where children are not present, and I was told by a priest that having it served, gets people to be more generous with their wallets. I don’t have so much of a problem with that parish function–because there are NO children at that one.

In the first part here you say it does not contribute to the income and then later you say that your pastor says it does contribute (indirectly).
As for children being present, I can only reitereate that children need good examples of responsible drinking as well as abstinance. They do not need to be hidden away from it. Your children WILL be exposed to drinking. It is only a matter of when, whrer and under what circumstances.

I think that the parish carnivals/festivals are another situation. Again I know of a parish, not my own, that has a big one, that draws crowds from all over the city. They SELL alcohol, and make lots of money, have police presence and problems because of the alcohol/rowdy crowd etc. And I guess I don’t like that situation either, but what I really don’t like are the little parish events for only the parishioners, where they always have alcohol present. At my parish they can not even have a Budget meeting without alcohol.

Yup - Here in Cinci, you might as well close down the festival if there is no beer. This is an ethnically German and Irish city.

So I see two somewhat different (but related) situations here: the myriad of parish events with alcohol not for profit, and fundraisers where it is served for profit and/or to increase profits from the event.

Yes there are differences. I guess if you feel that changes are needed in your parish, you’ll need to jump in and see if you have the support of the other parishoners.

Peace
James

 

[Marfran]

Well, Why do you think that you children, watching adults properly enjoying alcohol will entice your children into underage drinking.

I posted before that at a Church function an ***adult ***present did have too much to drink. Not falling down drunk, but the influence was obvious. I would have hoped that my children had not noticed, but they did, and mentioned the behavior of the adult to me. And I was so mad that I had to the have a talk with my kids about alcohol/over-consumption/responsibilty etc. Yes, of course you have to have that talk with your kids–but it was prompted by the occurrence at a Church event. (That’s the part that makes me mad.)

Underage drinking is a HUGE societal problem. And if ALL the adults are drinking, and there are examples of over-indulgence, even at Church events…well, I want MY KIDS to know that you can have a good time without it, that it is not a necessary ingredient for a good time, that it does not have to be included at every event…

But those who feel that it must be at ALL events trump my desire to leave it on the shelf and show kids that adults can get together without it. What kind of message does that send kids–even good Church goers can not be without alcohol for an hour or two? People/adults can not face each other without a drink in their hand.

How about non-alcoholic beer and wine??? Why not serve that instead, if it’s all about tradition or taste? No one can get giddy by having a little too much of a non-alcoholic beverage.

And I have noticed that I have been to many secular events where it IS NOT served. It seems to me that the secular events are setting a better example than the parish sponsored events–or maybe they are just concerned about liability issues.

 

[Marfran]

I guess if you feel that changes are needed in your parish, you’ll need to jump in and see if you have the support of the other parishoners.

I have vocalized my dismay but someone always provides free alcohol (again, I am not talking about a Church carnival/festival). Everyone says “but I want to show my kids that one can drink responsibly.” And I translate that to mean “I can not be at an event without a drink in my hand.” I suspect that we have a lot of “closet alcoholics,” including the ones who are always providing the free alcohol.

And yes, there are people who agree with me, and people who don’t go to events because of the alcohol–but we are outnumbered by those who can not be without it.

Which again brings me to the nature of the substance. IT is legal, but IT IS also a drug. Consumption of it can cause a lot of problems, and have a negative impact on society in the form of automobile accidents/spousal abuse, etc., etc.

And about the issue of ***selling ***it for profit. I wonder if there are ways to raise money that are NOT connected to alcohol. No matter what anyone says ALCOHOL is not a benign substance, as water or other beverage is.

 

[EasterJoy]

I have vocalized my dismay but someone always provides free alcohol (again, I am not talking about a Church carnival/festival). Everyone says “but I want to show my kids that one can drink responsibly.” And I translate that to mean “I can not be at an event without a drink in my hand.” I suspect that we have a lot of “closet alcoholics,” including the ones who are always providing the free alcohol.

And yes, there are people who agree with me, and people who don’t go to events because of the alcohol–but we are outnumbered by those who can not be without it.

Which again brings me to the nature of the substance. IT is legal, but IT IS also a drug. Consumption of it can cause a lot of problems, and have a negative impact on society in the form of automobile accidents/spousal abuse, etc., etc.

And about the issue of ***selling ***it for profit. I wonder if there are ways to raise money that are NOT connected to alcohol. No matter what anyone says ALCOHOL is not a benign substance, as water or other beverage is.

You can’t have Mass without alcohol, even if just the tiniest bit of it, so it must be a substance that can be redeemed.

I don’t think I’d make this about alcohol in general. I’d make this about how alcohol is used in your parish. If alcohol is a problem in society but not in your parish, don’t expect the adults in your parish to forbid its use. You may as well try to forbid people from bringing in beverages in glass bottles. Without a demonstrated need, people bridle mightily at prohibitions.

This is also why parishes are not democracies, though. Ask your pastor to really watch at the next few functions, without telling anyone else that he will be, and to decide honestly for himself if your expectation that someone or other will be over-drinking at these events.

If he sees a problem, he needs to address it, even if it means forbidding alcohol at parish events, no matter how free the stuff is.

As far as showing your kids that alcohol can be used responsibly, that can be done at home. While possible, it is not a necessary function of the parish to provide that bit of education.

If your pastor doesn’t see a problem, then point out that at least some people don’t attend parish events because of the perception of alcohol use. There are many, many people who have emotional scarring from people in their lives whose abuse touched them. They should feel fully welcome in the parish, too. Ask that at least some events each year be alcohol-free…other than the pancake breakfasts!

For those who “cannot be without it”: As my dad used to say, “If you can’t give up your booze at least for Advent and Lent, you have a problem.” So if nothing else, events held during Advent and Lent could be kept alcohol-free.

 

[Marfran]

You can’t have Mass without alcohol, even if just the tiniest bit of it, so it must be a substance that can be redeemed.

Yes, I would agree.

I don’t think I’d make this about alcohol in general. I’d make this about how alcohol is used in your parish. If alcohol is a problem in society but not in your parish, don’t expect the adults in your parish to forbid its use. You may as well try to forbid people from bringing in beverages in glass bottles. Without a demonstrated need, people bridle mightily at prohibitions.

I would say yes, it is how alcohol is used in my parish, but the problems are not confined to my parish alone. Alcohol ***is ***a problem for ALL of society, and no function where it is served, Church-related or secular is exempt.

This is also why parishes are not democracies, though. Ask your pastor to really watch at the next few functions, without telling anyone else that he will be, and to decide honestly for himself if your expectation that someone or other will be over-drinking at these events.

Over-drinking is a visual measure yes, but problems are not always visual or apparent. Obvious over-drinking will present itself for correction–other situations will not. Such as the absense of people who would like to attend but do not because of the alcohol, or the drinker who does not display obvious signs or continues to binge afterward, etc.

If he sees a problem, he needs to address it, even if it means forbidding alcohol at parish events, no matter how free the stuff is.

Our pastor is not at many of these events, as he is shared by several parishes.

As far as showing your kids that alcohol can be used responsibly, that can be done at home. While possible, it is not a necessary function of the parish to provide that bit of education.

And this is what people tell me when I complain about the alcohol present. That they feel it should be present, that children should see that alcohol can be consumed responsibly. And I say that they can show*** their ***children this at home. And then people inevitably say that well, ***they enjoy ***having a drink, ***they ***drink responsibly etc. And I do not understand why people can not attend fuctions without it, and be without it for a few short hours… I don’t feel it is ***necessary ***for any gathering…

If your pastor doesn’t see a problem, then point out that at least some people don’t attend parish events because of the perception of alcohol use. There are many, many people who have emotional scarring from people in their lives whose abuse touched them. They should feel fully welcome in the parish, too. Ask that at least some events each year be alcohol-free…other than the pancake breakfasts!

Well, that would be me. I keep the kids away from all these Church events–because of past situations. I have had to have talks with my kids (who are now teenagers) because of drinking and over-drinking behaviors witnessed at parish events. And I know of many people who have been emotionally scarred from alcohol use/abuse–I know a man who killed his wife in a car accident after having a few drinks at a parish event, I know a couple who lost their only child to underage drinking, I know several people who grew up with alcoholic parents and whose lives are forever negatively affected, I know wives who struggle with keeping their husband’s alcohol-related problems in check… Alcohol does so much damage in our society, and so many people pay the price for this, so many inocent people (not the drinkers themselves). I think that serving alcohol at Church events does not acknowledge the depth of the societal problem. Serving it and assuming that there are no unseen negative effects–is a fairy tale. I wish our parishes could have gatherings without it, and be inclusive to all of its members, not offering temptations or situations that could lead to negative aspects of the drink…

For those who “cannot be without it”: As my dad used to say, “If you can’t give up your booze at least for Advent and Lent, you have a problem.” So if nothing else, events held during Advent and Lent could be kept alcohol-free.

I realize it is unrealistic to have a society SANS alcohol. Out of all drugs it is probably the one best suited to be LEGAL, but the problems it causes are immense. I see that society tries to tackle these negative affects (laws, age restrictions, police attention/intervention, addiction treatment centers, etc.). I think it would be great to have a breathilizer in ALL automobiles, so that the driver can’t even turn the key if he has had too much to drink… As Catholics we can’t ignore the ugly side of alcohol, and I think we should acknowledge that it does exist, and that it is sometimes UNSEEN, and going without it at a community or parish event does not mean that you can’t have a drink in your own home. I would rather attend an event that is SANS alcohol, knowing that no one will be hurt or injured (in any way, seen or unseen) because it was present–than attend an event where alcohol is present, limiting no ones “freedom” but creating an environment where just one person will be hurt/injured/tempted etc.

 

[Aunt_Honey]

My concern (IF worth being dually noted):

Going to Catholic festivals I have found beer to be an attractant to the public (non-church goers). While I believe in having alcolhol at fellowshipping events (i.e. weddings, gatherings)t, it is wise to keep it at fellowshipping not as a means to community attraction. My impression of the message being presented by our many “Saints”? “Come to our festival, pay to drink and be marry (so we can give money to OUR school) but don’t hold us accountable if you are an alcoholic and we are presenting it publicly under the name of God and religion.” From an organization that believes abortion will damn you to hell, it is contradicting to provide cheap beer to those most suseptable to sex, drugs and rock&roll. Last festvial I went to (and the last I will ever go to) there were several drunken “public” pedestrians rocking out to “Love the One Your With”. Drinking in fellowship is just that - everyone knows eachother, giving you freedom to confront your fellow Catholic if you find an issue in their behavior. So why provide such an atmosphere to the public? Is gambling at these events not enough income to provide white crosses for your church yards to symbolize the death of our unborn? Most of which are results of the addicts and alcoholics in our society?

Just a thought. . . .

 

[Rand2410]

Yes I believe it is wrong to serve alcohol at church functions. I say this because I have worked at the annual church carnival fund raiser and have seen the results when alcohol is coupled with the poor judgement. Its causes some real world problems.

( and I’m the guy that would decriminalize the cultivation, possession and usage of medical MJ! )