Alcohol Consumption

[jesusluv]

I apologize in advance if this has been discussed.

Why is it that most Protestant denominations consider any alcohol consumption sin? These same denominations try and explain away the word wine in the Bible. They claim that there was no word for juice, but it really was juice while never stopping to think that 2,000 years ago there was no refrigeration and preservatives, so it would be almost impossible to make grape juice unless grapes were grown literally all year around and you could constantly make juice. If it wasn’t drank as soon as it was made, it would naturally ferment because grapes actually have their own “yeast” and other ingredients needed to make wine. So, it makes sense that making wine automatically with the grape harvest so it would keep would be what the Jews did.

Please give me your thoughts for or against this.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

What I find hypocritical is in this case they find “alternative” meanings for words yet refuse to consider “brother” to mean close relation since there was no word for “cousin” just so they can trash the Perpertual Virginity of the Virgin Mary.

PF

 

[deb1]

It isn’t most Protestant denominations just the vocal fundamentalist groups. The kind that swear that faith only save you but then invent completly nonbiblical rules to follow.

It has something to do with prohibition in this country. There were some church groups that truely believed that if they outlawed alcohol then there would be no crime. Some communties even got rid of their jails. There was also some antiCatholic, antiimmigrant prejudice involved. The new immigrants at the time-Italian, Irish etc-all drank wine as part of their culture.

The sentiment from that time period seems to have influenced some American Protestants.

The fundamentalist church that I belonged to insisted that there was no positive alcohol use in the bible. They used very circular reasoning. Drinking alcohol is a sin. Jesus couldn’t sin, therefore Jesus didn’t drink alcohol.

My neighbor, a Baptist aknowleges that Jesus drank alcohol, but won’t drink because she says that drinking alcohol is a bad witness to her nonChristian friends. This frustrates me, not because she doesn’t consume alcohol.(I could care less) If you say that it is a bad witness for Christians to drink any alcohol ever then what are you saying about Jesus who was accused of being a wine bibber? Wine is only a poor witness, if you think that it is evil. I would much prefer that she simply state that she doesn’t want to drink for whatever reason and leave the bible out of the discussion.

 

[Zooey]

A lot of factors have played into this over the years. Some have all ready been mentioned.
One that might not appear on the surface was the slave trade. The way it worked was this: Slaves worked on the sugar plantations (primarily in the southern US). The sugar was taken to the West Indies, where it was distilled into rum. The rum went on ships to Africa, where it was used to pay for slaves, who were brought to the USA to work on the sugar plantations. (Also in the Indies, but that had much less effect on American religious thought of the time, for the obvious reasons.)
This “triangle trade” could not function without rum. Many anti-slavery groups began to advocate first, that Christians buy no rum. (And use honey, not sugar, but never mind that here).
Now, it is not clear to me how this became a blanket prohibition of all alcoholic beverages, but no doubt there were at least some “puritanical” influences against anything that was unnecessary–especially if it might be pleasurable–involved.
Also, let us not forget, that there truly was a massive problem with alcohol abuse at various times in the history of the US. The reasons were various, but it was a genuine problem.
The various strands of this combined into one: the “temperance movement”, which truly believed–as has been said–that abolishing the sale of alcohol as a beverage would cure many, if not all ills.
In retrospect, this appears unreasonable, even fantastic.
What I find bizarre is that this attitude has remained long after the “great experiment” of national prohibition proved a dismal failure. But there it is…
I speak, by the way, as the descendant of: a bootlegger; a moonshiner; and a local leader in the Temperance movement, & lifelong member of the Temperance Party…I have, as it were, “heard it all”. (Yes, I know how to make moonshine; I have no intention of trying it on. Not even if it were legal…too much chance for a disaster!)

 

[puzzleannie]

jesusluv:

I apologize in advance if this has been discussed.

Why is it that most Protestant denominations consider any alcohol consumption sin? These same denominations try and explain away the word wine in the Bible. .

there is a current thread in AA, yesterday or a couple of days ago dealing with the wine/grape juice thing. I don’t think it is accurate to state “most” Protestant denominations condemn the use of alcohol. That seems to be mainly a doctrine among fundamentalist sects, and possible some conservative Baptist sects.

 

[Shlemele]

I can’t speak for the protestants (I’m anababtist) but my father is a pastor and it wasn’t untill he was out of the country that he drank at all. He didn’t think it was a sin, just that he didn’t want to do anything that would cause a brother to fall so the only wine we had growing up was used for cooking.

My fathers explanation on why we use grape juce rather than wine is that the wine in that time was only fermented for practical use (so it wouldn’t spoil) and you would have to drink much more to get the effect than the wine we have today.

One other question I have, for recovering alchoholics is there a non-alchoholic alternative? I know for a lot of those brave souls that are battleing that particular disease having any alchohol at all (even the minute bit in the cup) might be enough to rekindle cravings. My father in law is Catholic and just got his one year button in AA (we are so proud of him) but I would think it would be tragic if he couldn’t take the cup because of this decision.

 

[Lillith]

Shlemele:

I can’t speak for the protestants (I’m anababtist) but my father is a pastor and it wasn’t untill he was out of the country that he drank at all. He didn’t think it was a sin, just that he didn’t want to do anything that would cause a brother to fall so the only wine we had growing up was used for cooking.

My fathers explanation on why we use grape juce rather than wine is that the wine in that time was only fermented for practical use (so it wouldn’t spoil) and you would have to drink much more to get the effect than the wine we have today.

One other question I have, for recovering alchoholics is there a non-alchoholic alternative? I know for a lot of those brave souls that are battleing that particular disease having any alchohol at all (even the minute bit in the cup) might be enough to rekindle cravings. My father in law is Catholic and just got his one year button in AA (we are so proud of him) but I would think it would be tragic if he couldn’t take the cup because of this decision.

Schmele…grape juice was fermented because there was no refrigeration…fermentation is “spoiling” grape juice…I can’t speak of the effectiveness…I don’t see how it could be different.

An alchoholic can skip the wine and just take the host, as when you receive one, you receive both…just like someone who might be allergic to the ingrediants of the host…could just partake of the wine and get the same benefits…

 

[mellysue]

Why do protestants think drinking is a sin?

First of all, protestants do not think that drinking by itself is a sin. We acknowledge that Jesus drank wine (some try to use the BS that it was watered down, but I’ve been a lifelong protestant and have only recently heard that reasoning).
Why don’t we drink? (You can agree or disagree with the points below, I’m not here to argue for or against them, I’m just telling you where protestants (that I know) lay in their beliefs)

1. To set ourselves apart. It is common for people to drink. Some people do not drink to be a witness to those who do.
2. To keep our fellow brother/sisters from stumbling. Especially if a recovering alcoholic is in the midst.
3. To be above reproach as ministers. Protestants have ministers/preachers that are paid, usually, by the church. But each person who is actively involved in/leading a particular ministry in the church is called to live a holy life. To live a life so as not to give any cause or reason for scandal, for lack of a better word, to the church or ministry.
4. Many protestants believe partaking an alcoholic beverage is ok, but getting drunk is a sin.
5. Many believe the motive behind the drink is what determines whether it is a sin or not. Are you drinking because you like it, to impress others. etc…?

I am Southern Baptist and I drink. But I do not drink to excess. I used to help lead the children’s ministry at our church and I did not drink while I did. If I were to begin leading another ministry (especially children or youth age) I would not have alcohol in my house so I could be a good witness to my students.
My dh and I have agreed to stop drinking/having liquor in the house when we have kids. (it just begs them to be tempted to steal it.)

If you have any other questions for me, just ask. I’m what you might call a ‘liberal conservative’ Christian. I was raised very strict baptist, but have embraced more of my freedom in christ as I got older.

 

[deb1]

mellysue:

Why do protestants think drinking is a sin?

First of all, protestants do not think that drinking by itself is a sin. We acknowledge that Jesus drank wine (some try to use the BS that it was watered down, but I’ve been a lifelong protestant and have only recently heard that reasoning).
Why don’t we drink? (You can agree or disagree with the points below, I’m not here to argue for or against them, I’m just telling you where protestants (that I know) lay in their beliefs)

**I am not argueing with you just making comments. So please don’t think that I am picking on you personally. **

1. To set ourselves apart. It is common for people to drink. Some people do not drink to be a witness to those who do.

Unless you think that alcohol consumption is a sin then drinking alcohol can not be a bad witness.

**Also, as far as setting yourself apart…how far does this go? That is a question more from curiousity then anything else. **
2. To keep our fellow brother/sisters from stumbling. Especially if a recovering alcoholic is in the midst.

I would agree that you should not knowingly drink infront of an alcoholic. At the same time, a recovering alcohol needs to announce his struggles so that I can help. If he doesn’t then I don’t consider myself at fault if he sees me drink a beer.
3. To be above reproach as ministers. Protestants have ministers/preachers that are paid, usually, by the church. But each person who is actively involved in/leading a particular ministry in the church is called to live a holy life. To live a life so as not to give any cause or reason for scandal, for lack of a better word, to the church or ministry.

Again, I think that if you don’t view alcohol drinking as a sin then it isn’t scandalous to drink alcohol in moderation. **Jesus certainly drank and was criticized by being called a wine biber. So, he must have cause a little bit of scandal. **
4. Many protestants believe partaking an alcoholic beverage is ok, but getting drunk is a sin.

**So do I. **
5. Many believe the motive behind the drink is what determines whether it is a sin or not. Are you drinking because you like it, to impress others. etc…?

I am Southern Baptist and I drink. But I do not drink to excess. I used to help lead the children’s ministry at our church and I did not drink while I did.

If I were to begin leading another ministry (especially children or youth age) I would not have alcohol in my house so I could be a good witness to my students.
My dh and I have agreed to stop drinking/having liquor in the house when we have kids. (it just begs them to be tempted to steal it.)

If you have any other questions for me, just ask. I’m what you might call a ‘liberal conservative’ Christian. I was raised very strict baptist, but have embraced more of my freedom in christ as I got older.

I read somewhere that parents who are teetotalers and parents who drink heavily are more likely to have alcoholic adult children then those who moderatly consume alcohol in front of their children.

 

[mellysue]

Its mostly a cultural thing. Being raised in the South if you said you were a christian and then ordered a beer, the non-christians would look at you funny. “I thought you said you were a christian?”

It’s the good ole’ boy sub-culture of the south. ‘Preacher ain’t supposed to drink and good upstanding christians don’t either.’
I think alot of protestants don’t drink because they are afraid it will hurt their witness. (and it would in my neck of the woods) but we never stop to wonder how it got to be this way when most cultures engage in alcohol consumption of some sort and do not view it in a sinful manner.
My father is a childrens pastor (has been for 30 years).
My parents weren’t against drinking but we never had alcohol in the house. Dad was seen having a beer once at a restaurant by some church members. It took a year for the reputation to wear off. I’m not saying this is right. The people were judgemental and wrong to judge my dad, but the thing is, it could have cost him his ministry. To many, it’s just not worth the risk.

 

[mellysue]

On another note,

This culture is starting to change with the new (my) generation. We are losing the extreme legalism of the 50’s that my grandparents were promoters of. (no drinking, no dancing, no rock music)

There seem to be two sects now. Those, like me, who are embracing freedom in christ and leaving legalism behind. And those who as a backlash, of sorts, are going the opposite and embracing more legalistic views than previous generations held to.
(No kissing until you’re married, No movies over rated G, etc…)
I’m not saying either view is 100% right or wrong (to each his own) but when one group imposes their views judgingly upon another is when we’ve crossed the line.
In the last church I attended we had the two sects. The ‘liberals’ and the ‘puritans’. We liberals thought the puritans were too prudist, and the puritans prayed for our souls since we were obviously heathens.

 

[Lillith]

mellysue:

Its mostly a cultural thing. Being raised in the South if you said you were a christian and then ordered a beer, the non-christians would look at you funny. “I thought you said you were a christian?”

It’s the good ole’ boy sub-culture of the south. ‘Preacher ain’t supposed to drink and good upstanding christians don’t either.’
I think alot of protestants don’t drink because they are afraid it will hurt their witness. (and it would in my neck of the woods) but we never stop to wonder how it got to be this way when most cultures engage in alcohol consumption of some sort and do not view it in a sinful manner.
My father is a childrens pastor (has been for 30 years).
My parents weren’t against drinking but we never had alcohol in the house. Dad was seen having a beer once at a restaurant by some church members. It took a year for the reputation to wear off. I’m not saying this is right. The people were judgemental and wrong to judge my dad, but the thing is, it could have cost him his ministry. To many, it’s just not worth the risk.

I agree with Mellysue…it is a southern Baptist thing…I took my Baptist SIL to the liquor store…she doesn’t drink but was in there for the ride, and I remember coming out and her expression of SHOCK as she saw “good church-goers” coming out of the liquor store.

A lot of Hypocrisy…a lot of drinking behind the back

 

[mark_a]

Lillith:

I agree with Mellysue…it is a southern Baptist thing…I took my Baptist SIL to the liquor store…she doesn’t drink but was in there for the ride, and I remember coming out and her expression of SHOCK as she saw “good church-goers” coming out of the liquor store.

A lot of Hypocrisy…a lot of drinking behind the back

Sometimes I wonder if not drinking is a way of differentiating themselves from us heathen Catholics.

Having said that, there’s certainly nothing wrong with not drinking.

A Baptist friend of mine told me a great joke about this! Goes like this:

You know the difference between ****ist and a ******ist?

A ******ist will speak to you if he runs into you at the liquor store.

 

[deb1]

mellysue:

Its mostly a cultural thing. Being raised in the South if you said you were a christian and then ordered a beer, the non-christians would look at you funny. “I thought you said you were a christian?”

It’s the good ole’ boy sub-culture of the south. ‘Preacher ain’t supposed to drink and good upstanding christians don’t either.’
I think alot of protestants don’t drink because they are afraid it will hurt their witness. (and it would in my neck of the woods) but we never stop to wonder how it got to be this way when most cultures engage in alcohol consumption of some sort and do not view it in a sinful manner.
My father is a childrens pastor (has been for 30 years).
My parents weren’t against drinking but we never had alcohol in the house. Dad was seen having a beer once at a restaurant by some church members. It took a year for the reputation to wear off. I’m not saying this is right. The people were judgemental and wrong to judge my dad, but the thing is, it could have cost him his ministry. To many, it’s just not worth the risk.

I grew up Baptist in the south also. So, I understand where you are coming from. The Independent Baptist Church that I attended in Iowa was actually a little more extreme on their view of alcohol then the Southern Baptists.

I love a glass of white wine occasionally. My hubby and I were in the grocery store one day and I picked up a bottle of wine to read the label. He looked around furitively and whispered’ what if someone from the church saw you.’ This infuriated me, because I had not known that I was forced to agree with everyone of the pastor’s biblical interpretations. Understand, my hubby did not think that drinking alcohol was wrong, he was only afraid of the reaction of people from our church.

 

[NonDenom]

I apologize in advance if this has been discussed.

Why is it that most Protestant denominations consider any alcohol consumption sin? These same denominations try and explain away the word wine in the Bible. They claim that there was no word for juice, but it really was juice while never stopping to think that 2,000 years ago there was no refrigeration and preservatives, so it would be almost impossible to make grape juice unless grapes were grown literally all year around and you could constantly make juice. If it wasn’t drank as soon as it was made, it would naturally ferment because grapes actually have their own “yeast” and other ingredients needed to make wine. So, it makes sense that making wine automatically with the grape harvest so it would keep would be what the Jews did.

Please give me your thoughts for or against this.

Hi all
My wife and I don’t drink alcohol because we don’t want to be a stumbling block to anyone. It also gives us a chance to witness to our friends because we both used to drink with our friends. They have ask us why we quit, and it give us a chance to tell them how Christ has worked in our lives. I will say that we do not think that someone will go to hell because they drink. We know that the Bible warns against drinking too much. We also would not drink in front of our kids and here is why, say that I come home from a hard days work and I’m kinda crabby, I then go over and get a beer and drink it. Then I start to get in a better mood, my kids start to think that alcohol makes things better and I think that would be a bad influence for them. Just my thoughts.
Thanks

 

[drforjc]

Would you say that Jesus was a stumbling block, then, when He turned the water into wine at the wedding feast of Cana? By your logic, you would seem to be saying that.

 

[deb1]

drforjc:

Would you say that Jesus was a stumbling block, then, when He turned the water into wine at the wedding feast of Cana? By your logic, you would seem to be saying that.

This has always been my gut feeling when people announce that they aren’t drinking due to the fact that it would make them a bad witness or a stumbling block for others. Normally these are very sincere Christians so I always hesitate to criticize them.But Our Lord was criticized for drinking too much wine!

Again, I don’t care if someone doesn’t drink but why bring religion into it? Just don’t drink, if you don’t want to.

 

[grwnginChrist]

As a new Southern Baptist in Georgia…I was told that drinking alchohol is not a sin, but getting drunk is. They pretty much have the same view as the Catholics view I was aware of growing up…moderation is the key. I do believe Baptists have a stronger view that we must act responsibly as it is up to US to read the bible and learn and grow in Christ and it is up to US to make the right decisions based on where we are in are walk w/ Christ. It has been much harder to be a good Baptist than it ever was to be a good Catholic…because now it’s up to me, I’m responsible, no one else. Also one of the reasons wine is so prevelent in the bible is that it was “clean” the fermentation process killed bacteria…other than water, a lot of other things would spoil and even water was often polluted or poisoned.

 

[deb1]

grwnginChrist:

Also one of the reasons wine is so prevelent in the bible is that it was “clean” the fermentation process killed bacteria…other than water, a lot of other things would spoil and even water was often polluted or poisoned.

THe knowledge of microbs is very a fairly recent discovery. Ancient man had no idea that germs caused diseases. Besides the Nazirites in Numbers could drink nothing made from the vine during the time of their vow, this not only included wine but vinegar as well. So, there were some that regardless of pollution(something that they again did not understand) some people did not drink alcohol. Therefore alcohol was not consumed only for merely health and safety reasons.

 

[Lillith]

grwnginChrist:

Also one of the reasons wine is so prevelent in the bible is that it was “clean” the fermentation process killed bacteria…other than water, a lot of other things would spoil and even water was often polluted or poisoned.

There was no refrigeration…fermentation is what happens to grape juice when it “spoils”

Why do people think so hard about excuses for our ancestors wine drinking?