Alcohol Drinking - a NEW perspective?

[malachi_a_serva]

Hello. I recently heard the total abstainance of drinking alcohol defended with the following Bible verses.

Leviticus 10:9-10
“Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation(God’s temple), lest ye die: it shall be a statue for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean.”

What is Holy and clean? God’s Temple
What is unholu and unclean? Booze
And God says don’t mix the two.
Here we have a directive to obstain from drinking alcohol when going into God’s Temple - Old Testament. To keep unholy and unclean seperate from holy and clean.

New Testament - we are now God’s Temple:
I Corr. 3:16
"Know ye not that ye are God’s temple,…,…
I Corr. 3:9
“…ye are God’s building.”
I Corr. 6:19
“…know ye not that **your body is the temple **of the Holy Ghost, which is in you, which ye have of God,…”

Now the Holy Ghost authored the Bible - I am sure we can all agree(II Peter 1:21). So the Holy Ghost said:

“wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whoever is deceived thereby is not wise” Proverbs 20

“Be not among winebibbers;…” Proverb 23:20

“Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that terry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.” Proverbs 23:29-31

“Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation(God’s temple), lest ye die: it shall be a statue for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean.”
Lev 10:9-10

Now the Holy Spirit is:

the “Spirit of Christ” Romans 8:9 and wrote the Bible (II Peter1:21)…now why would Jesus - the second member of the Trinity come to earth and say I don’t care what the Holy Ghost said (which is the Spirit of Christ), the third person of the Trinity…
and go and do likewise.

I don’t think so.

1 Billion Muslims don’t drink.
1 Billion Hindus don’t drink
1 Billion Buddists don’t drink.

Who are the drinkers? The Billion+ Christians. Think Satan has a plan? (since Christianity is the truth).

Does this put an end to the question if Christians should drink?

 

[LilyM]

Jesus himself certainly drank wine for starters - at every Passover, as every Jew did. Jesus Himself was called a drunkard remember? Couldn’t be accused of it if He never touched a drop. And the Gospel writers would have mentioned that He abstained at some point, as they did with John the Baptist.

And His Apostles did too at the Last Supper - at His command no less! It’s not as if they were all Nazirites vowed to abstain from alcohol now, were they? They were regular Jews and for them, Passover meant a cup (or several) of wine.

And what about the wedding at Cana? Not only did He make wine - but gallons of it and of good quality (clearly He knew people were fond of a good drop or two). Did He rebuke His mother with ‘No, Mother, I can’t make wine for them, that would be encouraging drunkenness and sin!’.

And then we have Paul telling Timothy to take wine for the sake of his health. Wine is a medicine, don’t forget, if used properly and in moderation. God would deny us nothing that can be used to our benefit - He in fact provides all these good and useful things for us. It is only when they are used wrongly and abused that it becomes sinful.

In conclusion - moderate drinking, yes, alcoholism or drunkennes, no.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Jesus himself certainly drank wine for starters - at every Passover, as every Jew did. He was called a drunkard remember? Couldn’t be if He never touched a drop.

And His Apostles did too at the Last Supper - at His command no less! It’s not as if they were all Nazirites vowed to abstain from alcohol now, were they?

And what about the wedding at Cana? Not only did He make wine - but gallons of it and of good quality (clearly He knew people were fond of a good drop or two). Did He rebuke His mother with ‘No, Mother, I can’t make wine for them, that would be encouraging drunkenness and sin!’.

And then we have Paul telling Timothy to take wine for the sake of his health. Wine is a medicine, don’t forget, if used properly and in moderation. God would deny us nothing that can be used to our benefit - He in fact provides all these good and useful things for us. It is only when they are used wrongly and abused that it becomes sinful.

In conclusion - moderate drinking, yes, alcoholism or drunkennes, no.

Hi LilyM,

I guess that goes to the whole wine/grape juice thing - which I don’t want to get into but instead speak specifically on those verses I quoted.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Jesus himself certainly drank wine for starters - at every Passover, as every Jew did. He was called a drunkard remember? Couldn’t be if He never touched a drop…

He was also called a Blasphemer - that wasn’t true. Either was the winebibber comment (IMHO). He hung around those who drank - to give them the Gospel - hense painted with the same brush.

 

[LilyM]

Hi LilyM,

I guess that goes to the whole wine/grape juice thing - which I don’t want to get into but instead speak specifically on those verses I quoted.

But we have to get into it - it gets to the heart of these scriptures.

Firstly they must be viewed in context. Jews never use, and never have used, grape juice to celebrate Passover, but wine. Neither was grape juice used to celebrate festivities such as weddings, but wine.

It thus couldn’t possibly have been grape juice the Apostles were commanded to drink. Nor could it have been grape juice that was made at Cana, but wine.

Then we need to apply common sense. For example - why would Jesus even be accused of being a drunkard due to grape juice? Clearly that passage must be a reference to alcohol, so there must have been alcohol use by Himself or among His followers at some point for the charge to even be possible.

Jesus didn’t deny being a blasphemer because a) He DID claim to be God, and b) His destiny was to be executed after a false accusation of blasphemy, and He knew it.

False accusations of being a drunkard, if in fact He never touched a drop, are a different case entirely.

 

[NotWorthy]

Let’s not ignore the fact that Grape Juice was not invented yet.

Other than Leviticus (and what is the context of these verses in Leviticus, Malachi?), isn’t the prohibition against strong drink or excessive drinking?

If I use the logic you’ve applied in the OP, I could probably create a case against sexual relations, telling everyone to be celibate.

 

[NotWorthy]

Back then, wine was the perfect “preserved” beverage. Water would stagnate. Wine could be stored for a long time. It was a staple drink all the people of the region because of its long shelf life.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

But we have to get into it - it gets to the heart of these scriptures.

Let’s not ignore the fact that Grape Juice was not invented yet.

Back then, wine was the perfect “preserved” beverage. Water would stagnate. Wine could be stored for a long time. It was a staple drink all the people of the region because of its long shelf life.

Back then, grapes were a common fruit that was grown and harvested.

How could they use them?

First, they could use them to eat as fruit - as table grapes. But they only lasted at most about two weeks, before they go moldy. They didn’t have refrigeration back then.

Then they could press the grapes and get juice out of them. But the juice wouldn’t keep either. So they had to choose what to make (and sometimes the choice wasn’t up to them). They could either make wine or vinegar (actually they had to make wine, which is the first step to making vinegar). That was the only way to preserve the harvest of all the grapes - many, many more grapes then the people could eat in a week or two.

Don’t believe me that they couldn’t keep grape juice. Here’s a little experiment for you. Go to the store and by a some grapes. Wash them thoroughly and then crush them into a container. Set the container aside for about two to three weeks and come back to it. When you come back you will have one of three products - wine, vinegar or putrified juice.

To retain grape juice, you need equipment and know-how that didn’t exist until less than 200 years ago.

 

[lak611]

Don’t forget this verse.

Ecc 9:7

(ASV) Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God hath already accepted thy works.

(CEV) Be happy and enjoy eating and drinking! God decided long ago that this is what you should do.

(Darby) Go, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God hath already accepted thy works.

(DRB) Go then, and eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with gladness: because thy works please God.

(ESV) Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.

(JPS) Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God hath already accepted thy works.

(KJV) Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

(LITV) Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God now is pleased with your works.

(MKJV) Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God now is pleased with your works.

(MSG) Seize life! Eat bread with gusto, Drink wine with a robust heart. Oh yes–God takes pleasure in your pleasure!

(NASB) Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.

(NASB+) Go1980 then, eat398 your bread3899 in happiness8057 and drink8354 your wine3196 with a cheerful2896a heart3820; for God430 has already3528 approved7521 your works4639.

(NET) Life is Brief, so Cherish its Joys

Go, eat your food21 with joy,
and drink your wine with a happy heart,
because God has already approved your works.

(NKJV) Go, eat your bread with joy, And drink your wine with a merry heart; For God has already accepted your works.

(RV) Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God hath already accepted thy works.

(YLT) Go, eat with joy thy bread, and drink with a glad heart thy wine, for already hath God been pleased with thy works.

(RSV) Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already approved what you do.

 

[Contarini]

Hi LilyM,

I guess that goes to the whole wine/grape juice thing - which I don’t want to get into but instead speak specifically on those verses I quoted.

No, that isn’t going to work. The “grape juice thing” is totally unconvincing, so your interpretation of these passages is obviously wrong. Otherwise you are calling Jesus a sinner.

There are many positive references to wine in the Bible. But argument with people of your persuasion doesn’t work, because you arbitrarily reclassify all the “good” references to wine as grape juice. So what’s the point?

Edwin

 

[mattkubes]

To retain grape juice, you need equipment and know-how that didn’t exist until less than 200 years ago.

This is so glaringly obvious that people have to mentally choose to ignore it in order to defend the whole “grape juice” position. As a student of the sciences, I can assure you that the fermentation reaction is quite simple (albeit an important one). Take a source of sugar (grapes), add heat, humidity, and some lovely microorganisms (all of which were facts of life back then) and voilà…it’s unavoidable really.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

and some lovely microorganisms (all of which were facts of life back then) and voilà…it’s unavoidable really.

The micro-organisms are still a fact of life now. Anyone who dabbles with brewing wine knows that white film on grapes is composed significantly of yeasts already setting up shop, and it takes quite a bit of effort just to kill off the existing flora enough to let preferred yeasts get a head start on fermentation. Mr Welch had to go through some serious hoops to stop fermentation completely in grape juice.

 

[mattkubes]

The micro-organisms are still a fact of life now. Anyone who dabbles with brewing wine knows that white film on grapes is composed significantly of yeasts already setting up shop, and it takes quite a bit of effort just to kill off the existing flora enough to let preferred yeasts get a head start on fermentation. Mr Welch had to go through some serious hoops to stop fermentation completely in grape juice.

Haha sorry I forgot to mention that It should be obvious since so many of our juices are either pasteurised or have nasty preservatives in them…and if they don’t, they have to be consumed very quickly after purchase (like some of the organic varieties). So I wonder if OP is satisfied with any of these points?

 

[steveandersen]

Hello. I recently heard the total abstainance of drinking alcohol defended with the following Bible verses.

Leviticus 10:9-10
“Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation(God’s temple), lest ye die: it shall be a statue for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean.”

How does suggesting that you don’t go to Temple drunk equate with total abstinence?

What is Holy and clean? God’s Temple
What is unholu and unclean? Booze

Where does it say that?

…….

1 Billion Muslims don’t drink.

Well they’re not supposed to
They’re not supposed to eat pork either are you suggesting that we adher to that too?

Fortunately Christians aren’t Muslims.

1 Billion Hindus don’t drink

Nonsense. Kāma, one of four ends of man, specifically encourages the enjoyment of the pleasures of life

The Hindu approach to alcohol is varied
Some monastic orders take vows of abstinence from alcohol while some Hindu Tantric groups use alcohol in a sacred way, either as an offering to the deity or as taken individually during certain special rituals.

1 Billion Buddists don’t drink.

The Buddha broke with Hinduism in part when he decided to give up the Kāma
The 5th precept calls for the avoidance of intoxicants that cause heedlessness
That of course is up to interpretation
Some say that this allows consumption in moderation
Fortunately Christians aren’t Buddhist either.

Who are the drinkers? The Billion+ Christians.

2 billion actually

Think Satan has a plan? (since Christianity is the truth).

You mean some sort of plan like suggesting that Christians adhere to Muslim or Buddhist rules?

Does this put an end to the question if Christians should drink?

It puts an end to it with a resounding YES they should.

 

[mattkubes]

It puts an end to it with a resounding YES they should.

While still acknowledging the virtue of termperance, of course Any thoughts OP?

 

[batteddy]

Drinking is not a sin. But then again, niether is gambling, smoking, dancing, or even warfare or slavery.

But that doesn’t make them positively good things, really.

At best they are neutral or only slightly good. But at worst they can be terribly abused and horrible.

Slavery isn’t an absolute evil…but we sure are better off without it. The abuses and violations on a practical human level were terrible.

War isn’t absolutely forbidden…but that doesn’t mean I ever want a war! A war may be needed for defence sometimes, but I hope such situations never arise.

So too…though not an absolute evil, and appropriate even for Jesus in certain circumstances…getting rid of most drinking, gambling, smoking, and dancing…might be simply prudent for any enlighetened civilization.

It is certainly a higher path, which is why consecrated Nazirites gave it up. Like priest’s giving up marriage…marriage isn’t bad, it is just a good sacrifice to abstain.

 

[SeekerJen]

“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!”

-Hilaire Belloc

 

[LilyM]

“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!”

-Hilaire Belloc

Hehe, that poem gets trotted out a lot on such occasions

All I can say is God bless the Trappist and Franciscan monks, who brew a couplea pretty terrific beers

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Well, then our Dear Lord Jesus is just a bundle of contradictions isn’t He? How can we not drink if He told us to take wine and consecrate it and make it His precious blood?

A glass of wine never killed anyone. If it were wrong, Christ would have told us to avoid it.

As for those billion muslims… I can assure you having lived over there that more than a few of them do drink. They just have the waiter bring the Johnny Walker in a teapot and pour it into cups so it looks like they’re drinking tea.

 

[Melchior]

Hello. I recently heard the total abstainance of drinking alcohol defended with the following Bible verses.

Leviticus 10:9-10
“Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation(God’s temple), lest ye die: it shall be a statue for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean.”

What is Holy and clean? God’s Temple
What is unholu and unclean? Booze
And God says don’t mix the two.
Here we have a directive to obstain from drinking alcohol when going into God’s Temple - Old Testament. To keep unholy and unclean seperate from holy and clean.

New Testament - we are now God’s Temple:
I Corr. 3:16
"Know ye not that ye are God’s temple,…,…
I Corr. 3:9
“…ye are God’s building.”
I Corr. 6:19
“…know ye not that **your body is the temple **of the Holy Ghost, which is in you, which ye have of God,…”

Now the Holy Ghost authored the Bible - I am sure we can all agree(II Peter 1:21). So the Holy Ghost said:

“wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whoever is deceived thereby is not wise” Proverbs 20

“Be not among winebibbers;…” Proverb 23:20

“Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that terry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.” Proverbs 23:29-31

“Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation(God’s temple), lest ye die: it shall be a statue for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean.”
Lev 10:9-10

Now the Holy Spirit is:

the “Spirit of Christ” Romans 8:9 and wrote the Bible (II Peter1:21)…now why would Jesus - the second member of the Trinity come to earth and say I don’t care what the Holy Ghost said (which is the Spirit of Christ), the third person of the Trinity…
and go and do likewise.

I don’t think so.

1 Billion Muslims don’t drink.
1 Billion Hindus don’t drink
1 Billion Buddists don’t drink.

Who are the drinkers? The Billion+ Christians. Think Satan has a plan? (since Christianity is the truth).

Does this put an end to the question if Christians should drink?

That’s not new. I can quote more passages about drinking n a positive light, in fact I can show you where Jesus commands us to. In the Old Testament God commands drink offerings be poured out to Him. Jesus drank. He turned water into wine and the fruit of the vine was always wine. There was no such thing as Welch’s grape juice until the late 19th century. All the passages you cite are in refrence to the abuse of a good thing, not the thing itself. Look up the passages in gluttony.

*Numbers 28:7

Its drink offering shall be a quarter of a hin for each lamb. In the Holy Place you shall pour out a drink offering of strong drink to the Lord.*

*Deuteronomy 14:26

and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.*

God is encouraging people here to buy alcohol after they have tithed properly if they so desire.

*Luke 10:34

He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him.*

Grape juice is not a disinfectant.

The parable of the wineskins has to be referring to actual wine otherwise the whole bursting thing would make no sense.

Jesus turned water into wine. Jesus drank wine and commanded us to do so also at the Last Supper.

Paul recommended Timothy drink a little wine for his stomach. Do you know why? The next time you have the “D” word try it. Grape juice cannot do this. Further, the idea that the wine in Jesus day was unfermented is a complete fabrication. It enjoys not one shred of historical support. Fermentation begins immediately without something to stop it. The technology woud not come along for nearly two thousand years. Crush some grapes and taste the juice 24 hours later. You will be surprised.

The only think the Bible teaches about alcohol, beyond that it is an actual blessing,w ine was always a sign of blessing in scripture and it’s lack was seen as a curse, is that we are to not be drunk.

We do not take our cues from pagans either.

Finally, Jesus clearly drank. If we say it is a sin we add to scripture and worse we set ourselves up as holier than Jesus.
Pax,

Mel