Alcohol

[donalddon5]

Recently, I had a vision of being in heaven. I was before an altar which sits behind it a table that looks as thou it where the table that is use too hold the body and blood of Christ at Mass. There was two angels present. Although speaking in Angelic tongues some of it was known too me. The first angel whom I know too be my guardian angel said too me that all she wanted for me was too become a priest. She seems too be very hurt(as if emotional not physical) by me and just wanted me too quit drinking. She wanted me too take an oath, not too drink. I was I guess what one might call indignant, because I was thinking that she was below me in stature and had no right too test me as she has or bind me to an oath. Just for the record. I believe that my temporary insanity was because of her(please do not take this too mean I am a unstable person). At this point the other angel, whom I knew too be Saint Michael said let me try and step the altar next too her behind the altar. He said something unknown too me as if a oath that would bind us. I then pour two bottles of liquor into the chalice(guess that is what it is call–cup) which was behind the altar on the table, thus signifying that the oath was bound.

My question is this: Once while trying to become a Catholic at St. John the theologian catholic church in Panama City, Fl …A priest(Father Don offer me communion even thou I had not finish the RCIA program and I felt very unworthy and did not want too take it in that state). If I decide too try and join the Roman catholic church again(will be my third try) and have kept my oath faithfully to Saint Michael then would I be worthy too receive communion even if I still may be an alcoholic and drinking beer(also, note here: the oath was liquor not beer–I take it too mean not too drink the hard stuff—liquor and wine). Also note: I did indeed pour all of my various liquors out including the three bottles hidden aboard the vessel which I work on.

 

[Spirithound]

In order to receive Communion, one must be theologically in communion with the Bishop of Rome and be in a state of grace. So, if you do join the Catholic Church, and make a confession, you are permitted to receive Communion. None of us are worthy to receive, but Jesus allows it anyways.
Please talk to a priest about your vision and oath.
Please talk to your AA counselor about the beer.
Peace.

 

[Christy_Beth]

I would consider the beer as alcohol. It’s just as bad as the “hard” stuff. I also agree with the above suggestion. Talk with a priest and AA. The sooner, the better.

 

[Bennie_P]

Recently, I had a vision of being in heaven. I was before an altar which sits behind it a table that looks as thou it where the table that is use too hold the body and blood of Christ at Mass. There was two angels present. Although speaking in Angelic tongues some of it was known too me. The first angel whom I know too be my guardian angel said too me that all she wanted for me was too become a priest. She seems too be very hurt(as if emotional not physical) by me and just wanted me too quit drinking. She wanted me too take an oath, not too drink. I was I guess what one might call indignant, because I was thinking that she was below me in stature and had no right too test me as she has or bind me to an oath. Just for the record. I believe that my temporary insanity was because of her(please do not take this too mean I am a unstable person). At this point the other angel, whom I knew too be Saint Michael said let me try and step the altar next too her behind the altar. He said something unknown too me as if a oath that would bind us. I then pour two bottles of liquor into the chalice(guess that is what it is call–cup) which was behind the altar on the table, thus signifying that the oath was bound.

My question is this: Once while trying to become a Catholic at St. John the theologian catholic church in Panama City, Fl …A priest(Father Don offer me communion even thou I had not finish the RCIA program and I felt very unworthy and did not want too take it in that state). If I decide too try and join the Roman catholic church again(will be my third try) and have kept my oath faithfully to Saint Michael then would I be worthy too receive communion even if I still may be an alcoholic and drinking beer(also, note here: the oath was liquor not beer–I take it too mean not too drink the hard stuff—liquor and wine). Also note: I did indeed pour all of my various liquors out including the three bottles hidden aboard the vessel which I work on.

First - of all you should already be in full communion with Rome to take communion. If you haven’t been receoved in the Church then don’t take communion.

Second - once you are recieved into the Church, when you take communion you do not have to receive the blood for the fullness of the body and blood of Chirst is present in both the **concencrated **host and wine. So you don’t have to break your oath.

Thrird - if you are able to drink beer without abusing it, good for you. Just becuse you have had some trouble with hard drink, it doesn’t mean you are an alcoholic, but if drinking beer causes you trouble then you might consider leaving it alone too. You are the one that will have to be the judge of that. Hint - if others are suggesting that you drink too much, if you have gotten in trouble,or find yourself hungover from time to time - it might mean all alcohol might needed to be avoided.

If you are in 12 step program then talk to your sponsor and/or accountabilty partners.

Also, I know several people that are in AA and don’t drink alcohol drinks of any sort, yet the do take both the body and blood with no trouble. But not everyone can do that. But once again the fullness of the body and blood is found in the **concencrated **host, so you do not need to drink the blood to receive the fullness of the benefit of participating in the sacrament.

Hope you finish the swim this time around. Welcome home

 

[donalddon5]

QUOTE “First - of all you should already be in full communion with Rome to take communion. If you haven’t been receoved in the Church then don’t take communion.”

You sure will not get any arguments out of me on that one. Just do not understand why the Father offer it too me. The only reason I could come up with was that he was fully convinced that I had received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and therefore he did not want too denied me anything, although the Baptism usually only bring one mockery from others.

Quote, “Second - once you are recieved into the Church, when you take communion you do not have to receive the blood for the fullness of the body and blood of Chirst is present in both the **concencrated **host and wine. So you don’t have to break your oath.”

I know this as far as the taking of the one is the same as the taking of the two, but how did you come too the latter conclusion?

One- have you interpreted the dream/vision on your own or do you posses the gift of the Holy Spirit of interpretation?

Two- If partaking of one is the same as partaking of the two, then it would conclude that too take the blood and be breaking the oath is the same as taking the bread and be breaking the oath. One can not attain the kingdom of god without the Eucharist and one can not sneak into heaven. So, too somehow outsmart God by taking the body but not taking the blood seems impossible too me. Please, verified what you meant.

Quote, “If you are in 12 step program then talk to your sponsor and/or accountabilty partners.”

I trust in God and God only (that of course would include his messengers, Saints, Priests, etc.) not AA.

Quote, “Also, I know several people that are in AA and don’t drink alcohol drinks of any sort, yet the do take both the body and blood with no trouble. But not everyone can do that. But once again the fullness of the body and blood is found in the **concencrated **host, so you do not need to drink the blood to receive the fullness of the benefit of participating in the sacrament.”

Again, where did this come from, if from yourself and I took this kind of advice, then you would be in great trouble indeed. It also probably a good thing this is a debate forum otherwise, you may even be guilty of Heresy (a very serious charge). However, if you have some kind of interpretation from the gifts of the Holy Spirit please put it on the forum or if you are quoting something please make it available via a link or quote which can be researched, otherwise be strongly advised.

Hope you finish the swim this time around. Welcome home

I am currently debating, so that I will be better prepare if I decide too try and join the Holy Roman Catholic Church this time around.

 

[Christy_Beth]

I was in the middle of a reply when my computer decided to act like a jerk. But, part of what I was trying to say was, Don’t knock what you’re being told here. God sometimes gives us groups to help us along. Groups like AA.

And if you feel the need to debate, maybe you should be in RCIA. I think alot of your questions would be answered there. Sure, you could ask a priest. Just don’t get the idea that he has all the time in the world. Priests these days have alot to do, mostly due to the current shortage here in America.

I’ll keep you in my prayers. May God lead you home.

 

[donalddon5]

QUOTE," But, part of what I was trying to say was, Don’t knock what you’re being told here. God sometimes gives us groups to help us along. Groups like AA."

I am sure you are right about AA but like any groups of anything, there can be bad ones as well as good ones.

Quote,“And if you feel the need to debate, maybe you should be in RCIA. I think alot of your questions would be answered there.”

I think that my soul is worth debating about, I also think that RCIA is not a place of debate but asking questions and learning about the Catholic faith. I was debating the above person because he gave me what appear too be very bad advice, I only wanted him too tell me where he got the information which he departed too me. Again, I think my soul is worth searching for what is TRUE too the Church and not ones’ opinion and bad advice.

Quote, " Sure, you could ask a priest. Just don’t get the idea that he has all the time in the world. Priests these days have alot to do, mostly due to the current shortage here in America.

If I should happen too go that route and they do not have time, then that decision will fall on him not me.

Quote, I’ll keep you in my prayers. May God lead you home.

Thankyou. Likewise.

 

[Spirithound]

I know this as far as the taking of the one is the same as the taking of the two, but how did you come too the latter conclusion?

One- have you interpreted the dream/vision on your own or do you posses the gift of the Holy Spirit of interpretation?

Two- If partaking of one is the same as partaking of the two, then it would conclude that too take the blood and be breaking the oath is the same as taking the bread and be breaking the oath. One can not attain the kingdom of god without the Eucharist and one can not sneak into heaven. So, too somehow outsmart God by taking the body but not taking the blood seems impossible too me. Please, verified what you meant.

Under each species of Holy Communion exists the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. This does not mean that the accidents of wine appear in the Bread of Life. If you would not drink wine outside of church, perhaps it would be a good idea not to receive the Blood of Christ inside church (and receive the Body of Christ when you are properly disposed).

, "Also, I know several people that are in AA and don’t drink alcohol drinks of any sort, yet the do take both the body and blood with no trouble. But not everyone can do that. But once again the fullness of the body and blood is found in the **consecrated **

host, so you do not need to drink the blood to receive the fullness of the benefit of participating in the sacrament."

Again, where did this come from, if from yourself and I took this kind of advice, then you would be in great trouble indeed. It also probably a good thing this is a debate forum otherwise, you may even be guilty of Heresy (a very serious charge). However, if you have some kind of interpretation from the gifts of the Holy Spirit please put it on the forum or if you are quoting something please make it available via a link or quote which can be researched, otherwise be strongly advised.

There is absolutely no heresy in Ben’s quote. At most, it may be imprudent to tell you about his friends who receive the Blood of Christ, but he did explicitly say that not everyone can do this.

CCC 1377: The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.

 

[Christy_Beth]

I’m not sure that “debate” is the right word here. In my experience, debating just turned into nastyness. And as far as the priests go, there is indeed a shortage. One time I asked about it, and was told that in that particular year seven priests either retired or died and only three were ordained. We are actually getting priests from other countries coming here to help.

In my parish there is a priest from India who is, apparently, here to stay. And I know that there is at least one other from India in this archdiocese. Time wise, they can’t give to all the people all the time. This isn’t a reflection on them. Other than not having enough priests to go around.

I don’t mind you seeking what is “true to the chuch.” But please remember that we are all human here. Sometimes what we say is based on our limited knowledge of all things spiritual. As long as we are on this earth, we will be learning. I think that what you need most is someone who has far more training than anyone here. As long as that person has the time. Don’t expect someone to be there for you 24/7.

This thread started out as a question about alcohol. If there are any concerns about other issues, start another thread.

 

[Bennie_P]

Under each species of Holy Communion exists the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. This does not mean that the accidents of wine appear in the Bread of Life. If you would not drink wine outside of church, perhaps it would be a good idea not to receive the Blood of Christ inside church (and receive the Body of Christ when you are properly disposed).

There is absolutely no heresy in Ben’s quote. At most, it may be imprudent to tell you about his friends who receive the Blood of Christ, but he did explicitly say that not everyone can do this.

CCC 1377: The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.

Thanks for the backup, I should have referenced CCC 1377 when I posted my opinion which is based on my understanding of the Church teachings. Many don’t understand this aspect, plus the fact once the wine is consecrated is no longer wine but the blood of Christ. In the past at communion the congregation only received the Body, for as noted in CCC 1377 the fullness of Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts… In fact at our Cathedral only the body is distributed at the daily mass.

As to those that have or had struggles with alcohol it is more prudent not to take the blood at communion. Saying that, we each must be free to make are own choice in these matters.

 

[donalddon5]

Quote"There is absolutely no heresy in Ben’s quote. At most, it may be imprudent to tell you about his friends who receive the Blood of Christ, but he did explicitly say that not everyone can do this.

No, there was not…I took it the wrong way…I was thinking he was saying that it was okay too drink hard liquor and take the bread of life without breaking my oath; when he was saying that the wine is what I might want to avoid in order to keep my oath. However, I still disagree in part. because it is no long wine but the blood of christ once it is consecrated by the priest, so therefore, I would not be breaking my oath.

Quote "CCC 1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.

Now the CCC is certaintly something I would not argue with. thank you.

 

[donalddon5]

Quote " Many don’t understand this aspect, plus the fact once the wine is consecrated is no longer wine but the blood of Christ."

I see once again, I spoke instead of listening or spoke too soon.
You are absolutely correct in what you said above and it is I who jump too irrational conclusion about what was said.

As to those that have or had struggles with alcohol it is more prudent not to take the blood at communion. Saying that, we each must be free to make are own choice in these matters.

I remember once when a Commanding Officer in the U.S. Navy seen me at a bar. After my second or third mass. He look right at me and said maybe a little and held his finger and thumb apart the size of what one would take the blood of christ in. I always wonder if he was talking in spirit or I should say the spirit was talking through him. He was also going too kick me out of the Navy and it was right after that, that I receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the change had such an effect that He change his mind. That was at Naval Communication Station Harold E Holt, Australia about 1983, 1984 and the Commanding Officer was Roman Catholic. Shortly thereafter, the tempter must have showed up…Because it was all down hill after that tour. I am sure it would not have been as bad if alcohol was not involved, then again who knows.

 

[donalddon5]

I’m not sure that “debate” is the right word here. In my experience, debating just turned into nastyness.

I probablely have a different outlook, I think that debates are an excellent way too learn. I enjoy the argument as long as no insults or name calling starts. I look at arguments not in a negative way but as a way that an english teacher might make your write an argumentive essay. Perhaps if more Catholics would apply that too their faith then they would be force too take a deeper look at it. When the Holy Spirit starting leading me to the Roman Catholic Churh, I was deeply dissappointed in the lack of enthusiam that the priests showed toward their religion, the complet ignorance of the deacons, and the nonsense that went on in mass, Gossipping for example. I use too cry bitter tears during each mass that I went too because I would envision Christ hanging from a cross and see all of my sins in front of me. I even ask the Deacon if the demons would ever quit attacking me, his reply was no. If it was not for the few visions and expieriences I had during Mass, I am sure insanity would have struck me, but as it was God gave me somethings too hang on too.

.

Quote,"I don’t mind you seeking what is “true to the chuch.” But please remember that we are all human here. Sometimes what we say is based on our limited knowledge of all things spiritual. As long as we are on this earth, we will be learning. I think that what you need most is someone who has far more training than anyone here. As long as that person has the time. Don’t expect someone to be there for you 24/7.

AS far as your part, appreciate your time.

Quote" Don’t expect someone to be there for you 24/7.

24/7, I have God(Angels, Saints, Prayer, Christ), don’t YOU.

This thread started out as a question about alcohol. If there are any concerns about other issues, start another thread.

Then I would be divided all over the place. No Thanks. I will say what I say, you do not have too read it.

 

[Christy_Beth]

Sometimes I think you are taking things wrong on purpose. I don’t think that this forum is meant to be a place to argue just for the sake of arguing. You may call it debating, but it all amounts to arguing. My 24/7 comment was meant to refer to priests who you seem to think should be available to you at all times.

Yes, I have God and all the saints and angels. But where do we learn about them? Outside the bible on it’s own, we have the church. We actually need both. As disappointing as you would see it, it’s what there is.

As I have already said, we are all human. I for one don’t always remember exactly where I read/heard something. But if I bring it up, someone else might know the reference. That’s how it works sometimes. As I go along, I learn more just by sharing what I already know.

Once I got into an email “debate” with someone who claimed to be a former Catholic. I was a young Catholic at the time, having had been in the church for only about a year. My knowledge couldn’t keep up with my zeal. I’m sure you know where that got me. But it did get me to learning more about the church. Sometimes you have to argue it from the other side in order to understand it.

Exactly what ARE you looking for? The perfect church led by a perfect priest? You won’t find it on this earth. Sometimes you have to accept the shortcomings of others just as you need to accept your own shortcomings. I’ve seen nothing yet that shows that you understand either one. All I’ve seen on your side so far is arrogance.

I’m sorry if that sounds judgmental. But it’s what I feel, and think. I have plenty more to say on that, but I’ll stop for now to make sure I don’t make matters worse.

 

[Bill_Cherry]

Yeah,you guys,you…you .>hic<
wheres my whiskey…

ouch



WOOOOOOOOO!
Yea:extrahappy:

ouch

hic<

 

[Christy_Beth]

So who are you cheering along?

 

[donalddon5]

It was very amiable of you too want too help but as you stated before a debate turns into arguments for you. Who could ever tell.
God Bless You.

 

[blessedtoo]

Recently, I had a vision of being in heaven. I was before an altar which sits behind it a table that looks as thou it where the table that is use too hold the body and blood of Christ at Mass. There was two angels present. Although speaking in Angelic tongues some of it was known too me. The first angel whom I know too be my guardian angel said too me that all she wanted for me was too become a priest. She seems too be very hurt(as if emotional not physical) by me and just wanted me too quit drinking. She wanted me too take an oath, not too drink. I was I guess what one might call indignant, because I was thinking that she was below me in stature and had no right too test me as she has or bind me to an oath. Just for the record. I believe that my temporary insanity was because of her(please do not take this too mean I am a unstable person). At this point the other angel, whom I knew too be Saint Michael said let me try and step the altar next too her behind the altar. He said something unknown too me as if a oath that would bind us. I then pour two bottles of liquor into the chalice(guess that is what it is call–cup) which was behind the altar on the table, thus signifying that the oath was bound.

My question is this: Once while trying to become a Catholic at St. John the theologian catholic church in Panama City, Fl …A priest(Father Don offer me communion even thou I had not finish the RCIA program and I felt very unworthy and did not want too take it in that state). If I decide too try and join the Roman catholic church again(will be my third try) and have kept my oath faithfully to Saint Michael then would I be worthy too receive communion even if I still may be an alcoholic and drinking beer(also, note here: the oath was liquor not beer–I take it too mean not too drink the hard stuff—liquor and wine). Also note: I did indeed pour all of my various liquors out including the three bottles hidden aboard the vessel which I work on.

Making an oath based on one’s personal interpretation of a dream is certainly not supported by Church teaching. While your dreams may be representing some subconscious desire to actually quit drinking, I would suggest that this “oath” is binding only insofar as any promises we make to God that are above and beyond our obligations. For example, I may promise God I will abstain from chocolate for a week but if I fail, I most certainly am not in a state of mortal sin and can freely receive Communion.

Getting drunk, on the other hand, could be a moral problem if it is habitual and impacting your life. To that end, beer can certainly accomplish that goal. I find it odd that you would interpret your dream to be an admonishment for drinking only hard liquor and wine. How did you come up with that?

Active alcoholics are in the grip of a powerful addiction. This may mitigate their culpability when it comes to the issue of sin. It is always best to speak to a priest when one is uncertain of the state of one’s soul.

Of course all of this is contingent upon your full conversion to the Catholic faith.

 

[donalddon5]

Making an oath based on one’s personal interpretation of a dream is certainly not supported by Church teaching.

I made no interpretation of my dream. I did not even recall referring too it as a dream… I refer too it as a vision and maybe /dream.
The oath took place in the vision/dream.

Quote, " While your dreams may be representing some subconscious desire to actually quit drinking, I would suggest that this “oath” is binding only insofar as any promises we make to God that are above and beyond our obligations. For example, I may promise God I will abstain from chocolate for a week but if I fail, I most certainly am not in a state of mortal sin and can freely receive Communion."

I wish I was better educated especially in psychology to reply to your comments here but I am not. However, I do not think that it has anything too do with subconscious desires. I think maybe it has more too do with Grace. Of course I am no theologian either, but given my life experiences I certainly would know the differences between desires of my own mind and a Vision. If it was a subconscious desire then I would of course give your above statement consideration, but it does give me something too ponder on. You would have too know my experiences in life in order too see what I mean but of course you do not and even if I told you if your religion is base strongly on psychology and mine on Gifts then we would not be agreeing on much.

Quote, "Getting drunk, on the other hand, could be a moral problem if it is habitual and impacting your life. To that end, beer can certainly accomplish that goal.

Yes, I can see drinking beer as being a moral problem and in fact can tell how my mind different greatly on my own thoughts when not drinking. For instance, I work off shore on vessels and usually do not drink while on boats, this is usually for 28 days at a time. Now so as not too seem as a liar here.
The bottles I mention pouring out that was hidden on the vessel was the first time I brought alcohol aboard a vessel too drink in over a few years.

Quote,“I find it odd that you would interpret your dream to be an admonishment for drinking only hard liquor and wine. How did you come up with that?”

Again I did not interpret the vision/dream. There is a little part that
occur beforehand that I do not wish too address which I think might be why I felt that it was only hard liquor but as you said above…If it create problems then it must be a problem(or something like that).

Quote,“Active alcoholics are in the grip of a powerful addiction. This may mitigate their culpability when it comes to the issue of sin. It is always best to speak to a priest when one is uncertain of the state of one’s soul.”

I did that by going too confession twice, the first as is done in RCIA which the deacon suggest only too mention the grave sins and the second time before going any further through the program and that was just too ask the priest if it was alright too take communion if I was drinking, at which time I guess you can say I subconsciously sabotaged my chances of offending God.

 

[Christy_Beth]

Not all vision/dreams are from God. Even when you are so certain that it is. I once had a vision/dream about becoming a Carmelite nun. But it didn’t happen. Not that I didn’t try, I had contacted several convents. But it all came down to the fact that I’m not suitable to their lifestyle. This was a big disappointment to me. I had been so sure, for several years, that God was calling me to that lifestyle.

Your vision of giving up hard liquor and wine, but not beer, may not have been what you thought it was. I, too, had “visions.” But I’ve already addressed the outcome of that. In my case, the “vision” had to be within the structure of the order. They had to decide what was best for everyone concerned.

I’d like to suggest you look at this vision from a diffferent perspective. I think that’s what the others are trying to say. Why would you be led to give up all booze except for beer?