Alcohol

[Bill_Cherry]

Not all vision/dreams are from God. Even when you are so certain that it is. I once had a vision/dream about becoming a Carmelite nun. But it didn’t happen. Not that I didn’t try, I had contacted several convents. But it all came down to the fact that I’m not suitable to their lifestyle. This was a big disappointment to me. I had been so sure, for several years, that God was calling me to that lifestyle.

Your vision of giving up hard liquor and wine, but not beer, may not have been what you thought it was. I, too, had “visions.” But I’ve already addressed the outcome of that. In my case, the “vision” had to be within the structure of the order. They had to decide what was best for everyone concerned.

I’d like to suggest you look at this vision from a diffferent perspective. I think that’s what the others are trying to say. Why would you be led to give up all booze except for beer?

There are several different levels(if you will) of drinking.
There is the full blown alcoholic who will literally drink until he(or she)passes out or kills themselves.Their entire life revolves around getting a drink.This is when it qualifies as a disease.It is no longer a choice.It is an overwhelming need.One could even assert that at this phase that the victim is ‘possessed’.

There is the ‘binger’(or bender;as the robot on Futerama)who stays sober when it’s necessary;then goes T-total overboard first chance they get.
These are the guys that I think do the most harm to others.With the drunk driving and sudden violent changes in behavior,etc…

Then there’s the folks who stop off at the bar with their buddies,or hang around watching sports,nurse 2 3 drinks and go home.

There is a lot of scriptural references to both the evils and the benefits of the abuse and moderate use of alcohol.

I have a vision of leading a consecrated life.I try to now in preperation.That doesn’t mean its gonna happen.But,at the same time.I think it’s a message from The Lord to stay sober and vigilant and watch for His Return…

Who’s to say that God couldn’t tell someone,“THOU SHALT LAY OFF THE HARDSTUFF!”

 

[blessedtoo]

blessedtoo;4168753:

Making an oath based on one’s personal interpretation of a dream is certainly not supported by Church teaching.

I made no interpretation of my dream. I did not even recall referring too it as a dream… I refer too it as a vision and maybe /dream.
The oath took place in the vision/dream.

Quote, " While your dreams may be representing some subconscious desire to actually quit drinking, I would suggest that this “oath” is binding only insofar as any promises we make to God that are above and beyond our obligations. For example, I may promise God I will abstain from chocolate for a week but if I fail, I most certainly am not in a state of mortal sin and can freely receive Communion."

I wish I was better educated especially in psychology to reply to your comments here but I am not. However, I do not think that it has anything too do with subconscious desires. I think maybe it has more too do with Grace. Of course I am no theologian either, but given my life experiences I certainly would know the differences between desires of my own mind and a Vision. If it was a subconscious desire then I would of course give your above statement consideration, but it does give me something too ponder on. You would have too know my experiences in life in order too see what I mean but of course you do not and even if I told you if your religion is base strongly on psychology and mine on Gifts then we would not be agreeing on much.

Quote, "Getting drunk, on the other hand, could be a moral problem if it is habitual and impacting your life. To that end, beer can certainly accomplish that goal.

Yes, I can see drinking beer as being a moral problem and in fact can tell how my mind different greatly on my own thoughts when not drinking. For instance, I work off shore on vessels and usually do not drink while on boats, this is usually for 28 days at a time. Now so as not too seem as a liar here.
The bottles I mention pouring out that was hidden on the vessel was the first time I brought alcohol aboard a vessel too drink in over a few years.

Quote,“I find it odd that you would interpret your dream to be an admonishment for drinking only hard liquor and wine. How did you come up with that?”

Again I did not interpret the vision/dream. There is a little part that
occur beforehand that I do not wish too address which I think might be why I felt that it was only hard liquor but as you said above…If it create problems then it must be a problem(or something like that).

Quote,“Active alcoholics are in the grip of a powerful addiction. This may mitigate their culpability when it comes to the issue of sin. It is always best to speak to a priest when one is uncertain of the state of one’s soul.”

I did that by going too confession twice, the first as is done in RCIA which the deacon suggest only too mention the grave sins and the second time before going any further through the program and that was just too ask the priest if it was alright too take communion if I was drinking, at which time I guess you can say I subconsciously sabotaged my chances of offending God.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I am a Catholic and while I do not put a great deal of stock in psychoanalysis, I do believe our faith goes hand in hand with reason. Our Church cautions us about “visions” or dreams, or whatever you wish to call them. Our Church appreciates and understands the very powerful influence of the subconscious mind and would likely approach your “revelation” with prudence. My suggestion was based on some of the things you said in your post. As an ex-drunk myself, I am familiar with some of the buzz words and situations that occur when drinking is becoming a problem.

Whether you agree with AA or not, there is much value in their program and they have succeeded where other methods have failed. Among their tenets is the idea that if your drinking has become a concern for you, you may have something to be concerned about. People who do not have problems with alcohol never worry about how much they drink, when or where, or whether their drinking is effecting their faith life. That certainly doesn’t mean alcoholism is present, but that a problem may be looming.

Good luck to you!

 

[donalddon5]

Not all vision/dreams are from God. Even when you are so certain that it is. I once had a vision/dream about becoming a Carmelite nun. But it didn’t happen. Not that I didn’t try, I had contacted several convents. But it all came down to the fact that I’m not suitable to their lifestyle. This was a big disappointment to me. I had been so sure, for several years, that God was calling me to that lifestyle.

Just because you quit on God does not mean you did not have a vision. I donate regularly too a couple of charities that were started by women such as these two:
motherteresa.org
www.nashvilledominican.org
So I know that you can in fact be supportive of what God is calling you for even thou you made not be fit too be in a convenant. Nothing wrong with that for many are call but few are chosen. That does not mean few are chosen and the rest get thrown into hell. Look at what my angel expects of me…I feel bad that I will never be able too give it too her, believe me when I say tears are welding up in my eyes as I type this. So do not be disappointed or say that God did not send that Vision/dream, do your best too be pleasing in his eyes. We all can not be #1
.
Quote, “Your vision of giving up hard liquor and wine, but not beer, may not have been what you thought it was.”

I am sure of what I had. Like I wrote previously, there are things I am not saying. I think part of it was due too an oath I made to Saint Mary while down in Mexico on a Tug Boat (not in a vision/dream, or apperance) but just verbally in a prayer not too drink anything while I was in Mexico borders to atone for my sins against that country while in the U.S. Navy years prior too that. I kept that oath which end up being 45 days, which if you knew how much I was drinking at that time, You would understand it was a challenge. Anyways, without trying too intepret anything, I think that the vision/dream had a lot too do with maybe God taken away the hard stuff which he sure I would do because of the Oath between me and Saint Michael and believe me I fear/love God that much. But yes, I do know the difference between a subconscious dream and Angels visiting or being taken up too heaven(whatever the proper theological term is).

Quote, "I’d like to suggest you look at this vision from a diffferent perspective. I think that’s what the others are trying to say. Why would you be led to give up all booze except for beer?

If I had all the answer, for sure I would not have started this debate.

 

[donalddon5]

donalddon5;4168806:

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I am a Catholic and while I do not put a great deal of stock in psychoanalysis, I do believe our faith goes hand in hand with reason."

Then You must be a great fan of Saint Thomas Aquinas.
Thank you for your comments. Good day and God bless you.

 

[Christy_Beth]

I guess my thing against beer goes back to when I was in the Army. I tried the stuff once, but couldn’t stand it. But, at both duty assignments, I had a roommate who drank beer. At Ft. Stewart, GA. the one who drank would get to the “acting stupid” phase. Watching her took out any desire I might have had to drink. It was mostly by her example that I got my “attitude” about beer.

I can’t say I’m totally against beer, but I don’t think of it as an appropriate drink. Don’t ask me why. It isn’t that I haven’t at least tried the different alcoholic drinks. Well, I guess you can color me confused on the issue. I’ve seen how people can act while under the influence, yet cannot bring myself to totally condemn it. Personally, I think I would encourage most people to stay away from it.

Funny thing is, when I’ve been asked, like at the VA, if I drink, I just say I’m Catholic and outside the Eucharist I don’t drink. So it goes down that I don’t, because they don’t think that much counts.

 

[Bill_Cherry]

I guess my thing against beer goes back to when I was in the Army. I tried the stuff once, but couldn’t stand it. But, at both duty assignments, I had a roommate who drank beer. At Ft. Stewart, GA. the one who drank would get to the “acting stupid” phase. Watching her took out any desire I might have had to drink. It was mostly by her example that I got my “attitude” about beer.

I can’t say I’m totally against beer, but I don’t think of it as an appropriate drink. Don’t ask me why. It isn’t that I haven’t at least tried the different alcoholic drinks. Well, I guess you can color me confused on the issue. I’ve seen how people can act while under the influence, yet cannot bring myself to totally condemn it. Personally, I think I would encourage most people to stay away from it.

Funny thing is, when I’ve been asked, like at the VA, if I drink, I just say I’m Catholic and outside the Eucharist I don’t drink. So it goes down that I don’t, because they don’t think that much counts.

For those of you reading all this who may beconcerned whether you have a problem or not(that could be the sign that you do)you’ll save a lot of money,too!

 

[donalddon5]

Okay.
My original question was this:
“If I decide too try and join the Roman catholic church again(will be my third try) and have kept my oath faithfully to Saint Michael then would I be worthy too receive communion even if I still may be an alcoholic and drinking beer”

This is what I got from this debate:

1- No one is able too fully answer the question due too:
a: They do not know for sure that the vision was for real and
the church caution against such things. I certainly can understand this because Satan can appear just as any other Angel (Another story (experience), another day) and some people can not distinguish the difference between there own thoughts verses what is given. So Christy Beth was right.

2- No one is worthy too receive but it is through the church sacraments that one is brought into the church in full communion with Rome and may receive the Eucharist. (Did I say that right?).

3- Christ is both present in the consecrated host and wine, but the blood may be avoided if it has the potential of created a problem with alcohol due too ones’ own weakness.

Summary: I like too thank each one of you for your replies, If I seem harsh, my apologies. I once told someone who I credit the most for leading me too the church, during a college course where I share a dream with the class of how I remember one of the question and it end of being on the exam, that what I had was not a vision, that it was more cartoon like; a vision is more real. I could not have been more wrong. So, yes Beth that could have in fact been from God if you indeed did have that vision/dream.
I in fact do consider Roman Catholics to be the children of God and would not want too harm them or there beliefs. I just do not understand my standing in relationship with God in relationship with his Church. For instance: If I can not be baptize in water again because I was baptize in water at a protestant church even thou it was prior too knowing anything about the Catholic Church(and yes that is possible, even thou the church is all around and the Pope on television all the time), then why would it be necessary for me too receive consecration by the bishop if I already receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit(Yes, some are going too feel the need too psychoanalyze this).

Anyways, Thanks for the replies. Hope I did not create any permanent hard feelings. If you wish too post I will read it, but will most likely not make anymore replies on this thread(an excellent opportunity for those who like too argue to have the last word–LOL). May God Bless each one of You.

 

[Spirithound]

“If I decide too try and join the Roman catholic church again(will be my third try) and have kept my oath faithfully to Saint Michael then would I be worthy too receive communion even if I still may be an alcoholic and drinking beer”

2- No one is worthy too receive but it is through the Church’s introductory sacraments that one is brought into the church in full communion with Rome and may receive the Eucharist. (Did I say that right?).

3- Christ is both present in the consecrated host and wine, but the blood may be avoided if it has the potential of created a problem with alcohol due too ones’ own weakness.

Summary: I just do not understand my standing in relationship with God in relationship with his Church. For instance: If I can not be baptize in water again because I was baptize in water at a protestant church even thou it was prior too knowing anything about the Catholic Church(and yes that is possible, even thou the church is all around and the Pope on television all the time), then why would it be necessary for me too receive consecration by the bishop if I already receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit(Yes, some are going too feel the need too psychoanalyze this).

Hi Don,
Points 2 and 3, I think would make a full answer for your question. When you are received into the Catholic Church, you may receive Communion, even if you are a recovering alcoholic.

So why should you be Confirmed in the Catholic Church? Recall Acts 10:44-48, when the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit, but were still baptized. It seems that even if you receive a supernatural gift, you should still go through the normal channels that God has set out.
Peace

 

[Christy_Beth]

Don’t run off just yet. If you have other things to discuss or ask about, start another thread. It seems like you still have some hesitation about entering into the Church. We are more than willing to continue discussing this with you. So, don’t be a stranger, ok?

 

[Bill_Cherry]

Don’t run off just yet. If you have other things to discuss or ask about, start another thread. It seems like you still have some hesitation about entering into the Church. We are more than willing to continue discussing this with you. So, don’t be a stranger, ok?

RESISTANCE IS FYOO-TYLE!:knight2:

thats a joke:blush:

 

[Spirithound]

thats a joke:blush:

Your jokes have been very inappropriate. Alcoholics do not need to be mocked for their weakness, and current non-Catholics do not need to feel like they’re in the “tractor beam of death”

 

[Bill_Cherry]

Your jokes have been very inappropriate. Alcoholics do not need to be mocked for their weakness, and current non-Catholics do not need to feel like they’re in the “tractor beam of death”

I apologize for my apparente inapropriateness.
I fought with alcohol for a long time.So,I think I understand it.
The ‘joke’ was more towards the conversion tone of the don’t go away post.
NOT to alcohol.
Personally,I found that my resistance to God was futile…
That’s what I meant…

 

[Christy_Beth]

If anything I wrote was inappropriate, I’m sorry. The last thing I want is someone to get hurt because of anything I say. I hope to see you all on another thread.

 

[Bill_Cherry]

If anything I wrote was inappropriate, I’m sorry. The last thing I want is someone to get hurt because of anything I say. I hope to see you all on another thread.

Ok,then,…

me,too.
Patience isn’t my strongest virtue.
BTW-I recognize signatures faster than names…

Christy Beth
That could be a play on my sisters name

 

[Christy_Beth]

lol That’s a variation of my own name. When I register for a discussion forum, I first try my name. If that doesn’t work, then comes the variations. Then, if that fails, comes any name I can make up.

 

[catholicsuffer]

Well, it has been a while now since I started this post and I want to thank anyone whom may have prayed for me. This vision occur after I started the post and I have been alcohol free since:
"
last vision:

a man appear in my dreams that I did not know: he was behind an altar which I could not pass…In front of him was a sink and he was challenging me to pour my vodka out…I was at odds with him because I did not like the fact that he was challedging mewho was obvious a higher creatur…then Saint Michael appear in the same place and said: This day make your decision: the decision was to pour out my Vodka or keep it…even thou, I felt the same dispositon toward him as the first angel…I still seem too know the differnece…I pour out the vodka into the base…
"

Thanks again, Donald W.