Alcohol.

[EasterJoy]

Excellent account, though it’s still uncertain which came first, beer or wine. Since beer has changed more over the millennia, I would consider wine a more ancient beverage in a holistic sense. Also I personally don’t like calling anything not made from grapes “wine.” The word after all comes from the Latin vinum, which meant both and from which we get both our words “wine” and “vine.” I would call apple wine (which I don’t especially like) or cranberry wine (which I do) “wine” only inasmuch as malt beverages other than real beer can be called “beer”. The third ancient alcoholic beverage you failed to mention is mead, which is a wine-like drink made from honey and which was drunk in many parts of Europe before wine making reached them. For those of us of Northern descent its place in history and culture, including mythology, makes it a drink not to be missed. I dislike when it is called “honey wine” for the same reason as for other fruit wines; it is not “fruit of the vine.”

Then of course there is the Japanese “rice wine” sake, which is actually more like beer than wine in how it is made and in that it comes from a grain, but in a culinary and cultural sense it is more like wine.

I agree with you on the topic of wine not being “real wine” unless it is made of nothing but grapes, but when explaining the lay of the land to a neophyte, I thought it better to use the broader definition of the term and restrict myself to the alcoholic beverages she’d be likely to encounter. Still, I have heard that although mead was something one was not likely to run across outside of the Society for Creative Anachronism, it is making a comeback of sorts in some places. And absolutely, I’d consider apple wine to be nothing more than fortified cider…but I’m no expert on that, either. (And the true experts do get prickly about these things, don’t they? )

There is probably way more to the world of alcohol than a non-drinker is likely to need to know, let’s face it. I doubt if Robert Parker has tasted it all!

 

[EasterJoy]

Oh yeah, and then there’s cider. Certainly would not want to call that a kind of wine just because it is made from fruit.

My understanding is that cider is not wine because it technically has an alcohol content that is too low: that is, cider is usually in the range of 6% alcohol. If the liquor control commission of the state you’re in says it can’t be called cider if the alcohol content is over X or can’t be called wine if the alcohol content is below Y, then of course the local jargon has to change to match the definitions written into the law.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

My understanding is that cider is not wine because it technically has an alcohol content that is too low: that is, cider is usually in the range of 6% alcohol. If the liquor control commission of the state you’re in says it can’t be called cider if the alcohol content is over X or can’t be called wine if the alcohol content is below Y, then of course the local jargon has to change to match the definitions written into the law.

Cider is not wine in any sense, legal or technical, as far as I know anyway. But I don’t agree that local terminology has to change with legal definitions. In New York State anyway these legal definitions have to do with what can be sold in supermarkets vs. liquor stores and maybe other regulations but our words, and product labeling for that matter, should correspond to what the actual products are regardless of accidental traits like alcohol content.

 

[Becca3]

If you don’t like it, I don’t see any point in developing a taste for liquid calories. We don’t have to all enjoy the same pleasures.

As for vanilla extract, you can actually use nice flavorful bourbon essentially 1:1 as a substitute, if that’s what you have around. Don’t use scotch, though; it has a “peaty” flavor element that can clash with foods. Pretty much all of the rest of the liquor cabinet has its place in cooking, especially brandy (IMHO). Oh, and vermouth works as a substitute for dry white wine in cooking…I got this from Julia Child. The match is not exact, but the difference is usually just that: a difference, and not anything off-putting. Since you aren’t likely to have any use for the rest of a bottle of wine, which has a much shorter shelf-life than vermouth, that hint is worth filing away. The “fortified” wines (the ones with alcohol content up around 16-18%), like the sherries, can be kept on the shelf for cooking for quite a long time, whereas a bottle of wine can be a shadow of its former self even by the next day and certainly within 3-5 days. Also, be careful about using liquors such as triple sec, schnapps, or Kahlua to replace hard liquor or a flavor extract in a recipe. They have a simple syrup as a major component, so they work very differently in foods than liquors that aren’t so sugary.

Oh, and have you ever heard of “Beer Can Chicken”? You take a can of beer with a few additional holes punched in the top and maybe 4 oz poured out. You place a chicken on it, so the chicken can be put onto a grill with the can inside the cavity and the two legs steadying it into the “sitting upright” position. You can find lots of recipes for it; the main thing to know is that the identity of the beer is totally irrelevant. Cook’s Illustrated did tests, and it is a waste of high-end beer to use that instead of something really cheap. The flavor elements in the beer do not get into the chicken at all. It is the alcohol/carbonation thing that apparently keeps the chicken moist. (The white meat is almost too moist, sometimes–and soda pop didn’t work.) The can stays full of liquid, so the can doesn’t get any hotter than boiling, even over a hot grill. There is no evidence the paint on the can poses any danger.

My late mum used to put beer in the hushpuppy mix! I never tasted the difference. I have heard of that Kahlua. And even tho Julia Childs was so funny, she was just too complicated with her cooking!! Too much butter for my taste!! lol.

Sounds like you need to create a recipe book for beer and wine. lol. I been telling everyone here we need a recipe forum!! lol.

 

[Becca3]

Oh, and don’t forget the rum balls!! lol.

 

[EasterJoy]

Cider is not wine in any sense, legal or technical, as far as I know anyway. But I don’t agree that local terminology has to change with legal definitions. In New York State anyway these legal definitions have to do with what can be sold in supermarkets vs. liquor stores and maybe other regulations but our words, and product labeling for that matter, should correspond to what the actual products are regardless of accidental traits like alcohol content.

It turns out that you are right. According to my research, apple wine is generally not made by starting as if cider were being made, or vice versa, and so essentially nobody intends to make apple wine and winds up with cider, or vice versa. Who knew?

Typically, cider is made from cider apples, which have a lower sugar content and therefore result in a brew with a lower alcohol content. Apple wine is made by the fermentation of dessert apples using wine yeasts (which tolerate higher alcohol levels than natural or ale yeasts). The flavor profiles of cider apples are totally different than the flavor profile of dessert apples, not just the sugar content. There isn’t a clear distinction of “if it is X it is cider and if it is Y it is apple wine”; rather, the two are usually made from different apples and by different methods with the intention of very different end products. Because of that wine made from apples typically tastes entirely different than a typical cider, and differ by alcohol content because of the difference in starting materials.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I had 6 beers last Saturday, first time in a long time. Got a nice buzz going and really enjoyed some conversation and dancing!

 

[underacloud]

Yes…and the “invention” of sparkling wine was accomplished by learning to cultivate what had previously been considered an irritating fault in wine. The Benedictine monk Dom Pérignon and the other Champenois winemakers of his time spent their lives trying to get rid of the bubbles!

Yes, it is a most ironic misconception that Dom Perignon “invented” champagne. More than anything it was the capacity to with-hold the pressure through thicker/stronger glass and the use of muselets (wire cage holding in the cork) that saw champagne slowly evolve from a table wine that often mysteriously exploded to the wonderful sparkling delights of today.