Alcohol

[catholictiger]

If you find you need to count your drinks, you probably have a problem.

I helped out, briefly, in substance abuse, and NOBODY ever thought they had a problem. I asked the counselor if anybody ever comes through that door admitting they had a problem. She said, “No!”

We had one guy who had been arrested several times and more. Didn’t think he had a problem! She showed at his current rate of usage how many holes he’d probably have in his brain! He didn’t care he might have holes in his brain!

why would counting your drinks be a problem?

I know how much I can drink and still be very attentive and not impaired or even close to drunk. I guess your getting at something else but please explain yourself.

I would think someone say that I will never have more than 2 glasses of wine or 1 bottle of beer with a meal doesn’t have a problem.

 

[DMC12]

about how many, as many as are not a risk to your health either by drinking too much and too often (ask a doctor about this) or by loosing yourself. what i like to do is to checking if im still well, if im feeling dizzy or something its better to stop.

well i personally don’t like alcohol so i don’t drink.

if you want to be on the safe side though, follow the amounts permitted for safe driving

heh, two beers here gets you arrested or fined for a quite big quantity.

 

[Brendan_64]

I’ve never been to the UK but I lived in Germany for a few years and got the chance to observe plenty of your countrymen in action and a arrogant sloppy drunk limey doesn’t look much different then a drunk American even with his culturally superior more advanced understanding of drinking. What was all that “Black Friday” business I just read about before Christmas? Is that what it looks like when you “understand drinking”?

A British comedian once said recently that a good night out from a Brit is 8 pints of beer and a curry, whereas a good night out for an American is 1 pint of beer and 8 curries. It was a really good sketch, I wonder if it is on Youtube.

There really is a difference in cultural attitude. In Britain it is perfectly socially acceptable to get drunk. Using that ‘12 step’ guide posted earlier, most of the people I know would be classified as alcoholics, which I seriously doubt.

 

[Blood_Angel]

ChurchSoldier, I scored five on your test thing so I am most definitely an alcoholic then!

Well the truth is, I drink because I’m bored. I have a lot of free time and spend many nights alone. Alcohol makes my life a little bit more interesting and fun, it doesn’t effect my job or my life in any way, I just like to have a few bottles of beer, maybe half of a bottle of wine in the evening while I’m watching a movie or browsing the internet.

There comes a point when I start feeling a little funny and I’ll stop drinking, I know my limit from years of experience. In my younger days, I’d carry on here, end up having memory loss or being sick or falling asleep.

I realize that drinking because I’m bored is probably a stupid idea but there you go, for some of us, it’s all we have.

 

[Brendan_64]

What I do find a bit strange is the advise to stop once you start to feel the alcohol having an effect on you. If you want to drink without the experiencing the effects of alcohol, then why drink alcohol? Surely soft drinks would be more appropriate if that was your aim?

Alcohol is a drug, so surely part of the reason for drinking it is to feel the effects of the drug? So long as you can, of course, sensibly manage these effects.

 

[Blood_Angel]

Alcohol is a drug, so surely part of the reason for drinking it is to feel the effects of the drug? So long as you can, of course, sensibly manage these effects.

Well that’s the trick isn’t it?

 

[Bookcat]

How much alcohol is too much?

When it is too much.

Contrary to the virtue of temperance.

Catechism:

2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.

1809 Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will’s mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: “Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart.” Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: “Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites.” In the New Testament it is called “moderation” or “sobriety.” We ought “to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

 

[Bookcat]

Now one can go to excess (speaking here of drinking - setting aside other circumstances that can involve further other matters -such knowing it will lead one or others to various mortal sins --or its involves driving, flying etc) -and drink contrary to temperance:

Venially

Or

Mortally (grave matter, with full knowledge and deliberate consent).

Grave matter in such has been noted to regard the “complete loss of reason”.

Also read therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl (select D and from the drop box go to drunkness and then hit “defination” --from Fr. John Hardon) (he adds loss of ability to distinguish right from wrong…as another).

 

[Brendan_64]

When it is too much.

Contrary to the virtue of temperance.

Catechism:

2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air. ]

If you’re not driving then this doesn’t apply. Most people who get a bit drunk, don’t drive home afterwards.

1809 Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will’s mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: “Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart.” Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: “Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites.” In the New Testament it is called “moderation” or “sobriety.” We ought “to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

This applies as much to over-eating as it does to drinking. How many people could be accused of eating to excess at Christmas (or on many other times)?.

 

[Bookcat]

If you’re not driving then this doesn’t apply. Most people who get a bit drunk, don’t drive home afterwards.

The excess part does…driving or not…

“The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine.” Period

This applies as much to over-eating as it does to drinking. How many people could be accused of eating to excess at Christmas (or on many other times)?.

Yes - see my other post.

 

[Bookcat]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11571401&postcount=28

 

[Brendan_64]

Yes - see my other post.

Yes, I saw your post, and I agree with what you wrote. Your post was very balanced and reasonable.

But there is a danger of seeing CCC2290 as saying that drinking to excess is gravely sinful. It does not say this. The grave sin is incurred if a person endangers his life, or the life of others through driving (or sailing, or flying) whilst having drunk to excess. It does not say that drinking to excess is in itself gravely sinful.

Some people will try to tell you that drinking to excess is in itself a grave sin. Our Church does not teach this. Excess drinking does not necessarily lead to “a complete loss of reason” or an inability to distinguish right from wrong.

 

[Blood_Angel]

I learned that Buddhists are pretty much tee-total because they don’t want to encourage others to drink, they want to set an example I suppose. However, that’s a very different religion. What reason should Catholics be tee-total?
There’s no two ways about it, you either drink alcohol or you don’t but one can drink alcohol and not be a drunk which as from what I’ve read in the Bible, it says don’t be a drunk, which means drinking is acceptable.

I believe devout Roman Catholic J.R.R Tolkien enjoyed alcohol and smoking pipes, generally speaking, just an adult enjoying simple pleasures in life or was he a substance abuser and alcoholic?
I’m sorry for going on but it’s something that interests me very much learning about Catholicism and what it says about alcohol which as we all know is a very powerful drug and destroys lives.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, I saw your post, and I agree with what you wrote. Your post was very balanced and reasonable.

But there is a danger of seeing CCC2290 as saying that drinking to excess is gravely sinful. It does not say this. The grave sin is incurred if a person endangers his life, or the life of others through driving (or sailing, or flying) whilst having drunk to excess. It does not say that drinking to excess is in itself gravely sinful.

Some people will try to tell you that drinking to excess is in itself a grave sin. Our Church does not teach this. Excess drinking does not necessarily lead to “a complete loss of reason” or an inability to distinguish right from wrong.

Right.

Excess in itself can be grave…but not all excess…

 

[Brendan_64]

Right.

Excess in itself can be grave…but not all excess…

I would say that excess in itself is not grave, but that it is grave actions that are committed (while under the influence of alcohol or not) which are grave.

Clearly, driving while having drunk to excess is gravely sinful as it is recklessly endangering lives (just as driving at excessive speed on the roads is) but most people who drink to excess do not drive home. Clearly, sexual promiscuity when drunk is gravely sinful, but sexual promiscuity when sober is also gravely sinful. Starting a fight when drunk is also sinful, but the so is starting a fight when sober.

It’s not the drinking, it’s what you do when you’re drinking.

 

[april32010]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1852 There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: “Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.”

 

[Brendan_64]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

How do you define drunkenness?

 

[april32010]

the question is how does the Church define drunkenness

 

[april32010]

fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing,

and which of these are we allowed to indulge in ,as long as we don’t "over do it "

 

[april32010]