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Bookcat
Guest
Excess in alcohol can YES be grave matter (drunkness for pleasure to point of loss of reason-- as opposed to medical use in say perhaps having your foot cut off in the wildā¦)
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Brendan_64
Guest
The effects of alcohol are on a continuum. The effects start from the moment you take a sip of alcohol.
We are not a teetoaling Church, Christ himself was not a teetotaler, He drank alcohol. Indeed he provided more alcohol with His first miracle, after they had ran out of alcohol at the wedding.
So yes, we are allowed to drink and experience the effects of alcohol, so long as we donāt overdo it.
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Brendan_64
Guest
Does the Church define drunkenness?
Since it is not the alcohol itself, or the effects of alcohol that can logically be described as being sinful, it would seem logical that drunkenness is a state of being where the person is unable to distinguish right from wrong. When alcohol alcohol affects a personsā judgement to the point where they do not have a grasp on morality or they are not in control of their actions, then that would seem to be a reasonable definition of drunkenness. Getting a bit merry, relaxed and having a good-natured laugh with friends (even though considerably over the drink-driving limit) hardly classifies as ādrunkennessā. The sinfulness of drinking is the actions that may be committed as a result of a judgement so clouded by alcohol that right is not distinguishable from wrong. Light-headedness, increased āconversationā, slurring of speech, and a bit of light staggering are not in themselves sinful actions.
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Bookcat
Guest
Catholic Moral Theology has defined such for centuriesā¦
Intemperance is of degrees. Yes excess in drinking alcohol is sinful.
And such is not just in relation to any other āactionsā that may occur.
And not just when one is not able to distinguish right from wrong (that would very excessive to say the least).
There is excess in drinking alcohol (intemperance) that is venially sinful and that which is mortally sinful.
Does that mean one is not to enjoy a glass or so of say wine? Or have some chartruse? That such is contrary to temperance? No. But moderation is key.
Let us live the virtue of temperance.
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Brendan_64
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No you havenāt. You havenāt shown any definition of drunkenness. Youāve shown where the Church says that drunkenness is wrong but nowhere where drunkenness is defined.
The effects of alcohol are a continuum and take effect from the first drink.
Really? And what constitutes excess?
It is not the consumption of alcohol itself (or the effects of alcohol) but the actions that may result from the consumption of too much alcohol that constitutes the sin.
And what constitutes excess drinking? 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10ā¦ drinks? It is impossible to draw the line simply when it comes to the amount of alcohol drunk, or the level of effect of alcohol (since alcohol takes effect before the first glass is finished). The line can be drawn, however where the amount drunk directly leads a person to sin, or to be in a position where they cannot distinguish right from wrong. This depends on the person and his ability to manage the effects of alcohol.
And what about a person enjoying three, four, five, six, seven, eight ā¦ glasses of wine?
Temperence is a virtue, but it applies as much to food as it does to alcohol. How many people seem to criticise the amount of food eaten by people at Christmas, Thanksgiving etc?Let us life the virtue of temperance.
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Bookcat
Guest
Yes it is and yes it does.
How many criticise the amount of food eaten then? Interestingly one of the readings at Mass for Christmas are about temperanceā¦
and I do at times mention such
ā¦ (starting with myself!).(note too that individual acts of intemperence in food are usually venialā¦where as many in society make it a goal to get quite drunkā¦ .)
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Brendan_64
Guest
And so intemperence in food is less sinful than intemperence in drink? What about people who sit down with the clear intention of eating a huge amount of food? How is that worse than someone sitting down with the intention of drinking a huge amount of drink? It that simply because alcohol has an effect on the body that food does not? Why is that an issue if a person can manage these effects so that they do not lead him into sin? Chemical effects on the body are not in themselves sinful. And from health grounds, and harm to society, obesity presents more damage to health and is a bigger killer than alcohol. Yet lack of temperence in food is less sinful?
That makes no sense whatsoever.
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Bookcat
Guest
Yes often.
Excess in alcohol and excess in food is yes both disordered. Both contrary to temperance.
And yes people are more apt to commit mortal sin via alcohol (how in our culture may set out to be very drunk? --to many) than food.
Reason, the virtue of temperance, and good judgement of conscience can guide one in ones eating and drinking alcohol. Though it is to be noted that what is contrary to temperance for one is not for another and as at least one Saint reminds usāthis is a area that is a difficult one where many struggle.
And I would say that the measure of such can be effected to by the occasion - what is reasonable on say a feast is different than ordinary life.
Individual acts of overeatingā¦intemperance are āordinarilyā a āvenial matterā for venial sinā¦
Now certain uncorrected habits that cause at least in the short term serious problems can become graveā¦like perhaps your doctor tells you if you keep eating 7 pieces of cake a day you will seriously harm your health or drop deadā¦in say three months.
The best example intemperance that is grave matterā¦would being drunk to the point of one losing ones reason ā¦(outside say them having to cut your foot off out in the wildā¦)
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Brendan_64
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A great many people can get drunk (often considerably drunk) and still be in control of their reason regarding committing mortal sin. Some people are much better at managing the effects of alcohol than others.
And presumably the same would apply to the much greater consumption of alcohol on a special ocassion, Christmas, weddings, New Yearās Eve etc.?
As are individual acts of over-drinking as most people when drunk do not commit mortal sin or lose their reason. Slurring of speech, talking too much, staggering a bitā¦ none of these are mortal sins.
It is more harmful than that, just look at the percentage of the population that are obese. Obesity is the biggest health threat, far bigger than alcohol. People donāt get obese by accident, and many people are recklessly putting their lives at risk through overeating. Does that sound like venial sin?
Or putting ones life recklessly at risk as a result of intemperant eating?
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ahs
Guest
Just FYI, I had trouble accessing the link that Bookcat provided earlier on. The definition of ādrunkenessā from Father Hadenās(?) page:
DRUNKENNESS. Overindulgence in alcoholic beverages. On Catholic moral principles, the degree of sinfulness in excessive drinking depends on how this excess is known to affect this particular drinker. It is a **grave matter if **it is foreseen that this drink will cause one to lose the use of oneās senses or will put one in such a state that he or she is no longer able to distinguish right from wrong. It is a venial matter if one has reason for believing that this amount of drinking, though actually excessive, will neither deprive one of the use of oneās senses or of the power to distinguish right from wrong.
Emphasis mine to show the differences described. OP, this is a really good definition and description to go by. It should also not be forgotten that, as has alreday been provided, one incurs grave guilt when one endandgers life (on road, air, or sea) while drinking (i.e. drunk driving).
DRUNKENNESS. Overindulgence in alcoholic beverages. On Catholic moral principles, the degree of sinfulness in excessive drinking depends on how this excess is known to affect this particular drinker. It is a **grave matter if **it is foreseen that this drink will cause one to lose the use of oneās senses or will put one in such a state that he or she is no longer able to distinguish right from wrong. It is a venial matter if one has reason for believing that this amount of drinking, though actually excessive, will neither deprive one of the use of oneās senses or of the power to distinguish right from wrong.
Emphasis mine to show the differences described. OP, this is a really good definition and description to go by. It should also not be forgotten that, as has alreday been provided, one incurs grave guilt when one endandgers life (on road, air, or sea) while drinking (i.e. drunk driving).
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Brendan_64
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That is an excellent definition. Excessive drinking is only grave matter if** it is forseen** that it will lead to a person being unable to distinguish right from wrong. If a person drinks to excess, but is still able to distinguish right from wrong, then it is not grave matter, or if one does not forsee that such drinking will lead to an inability to distinguish right from wrong (even if it ends up that it does) then this is not grave matter either.
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Bookcat
Guest
Yes it canā¦ at least in the case of āthe short termā.
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Bookcat
Guest
Not just about the āinability to distinguish right from wrongāā¦ but that is certainly one.
The complete depriving oneself of ones reason. (For say pleasure -not for say a medical reason -one has to cut out that bullet in the fieldā¦)
and of course
For any mortal sin one needs not only grave matter but the needed knowledge and deliberate consent as well.
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Brendan_64
Guest
Well there you go, we have arrived at a consensus!
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cargau
Guest
Sounds like the alcohol Treatment industry is looking for some job security. While it is important to help folks who need it, it would be folly to scare folks into it who donāt.
Here is a more reasonable testā¦ And, questions about blacking out, remembering, etc should be reworded to say, I n the past yearā¦Yeah, when I was eighteen, 40 years ago, I found my limit. But, to be truthful on this test, I would have to answer in the affirmative.
Am I Alcoholic?
Are you wondering if you have an addiction to alcohol?
Are you concerned about the role alcohol plays in your life? With 26 questions, this simple self-test is intended to help you determine if you or someone you know needs to find out more about alcoholism.
Please Note: This test specifically does not include drug use. To take a self-test focused specifically on drug use, please click on Am I Drug Addicted?
Directions: The following questions are a self-test to help your review the role that alcohol plays in your life. Remember that the questions do not include other drugs taken for medical and non-medical uses.
Carefully read each statement. When preparing each response, take into consideration your actions over the course of the past 12 months.
Yes or No: Decide whether your answer is YES or NO and then check the appropriate space. Please be sure to answer every question.
NCADD Self-Test: What are the Signs of Alcoholism?
- Do you drink heavily when you are disappointed, under pressure or have had a quarrel
with someone? Yes No - Can you handle more alcohol now than when you first started to drink? Yes No
- Have you ever been unable to remember part of the previous evening, even though
your friends say you didnāt pass out? Yes No - When drinking with other people, do you try to have a few extra drinks when others
wonāt know about it? Yes No - Do you sometimes feel uncomfortable if alcohol is not available? Yes No
- Are you more in a hurry to get your first drink of the day than you used to be? Yes No
- Do you sometimes feel a little guilty about your drinking? Yes No
- Has a family member or close friend express concern or complained about your drinking? Yes No
- Have you been having more memory āblackoutsā recently? Yes No
- Do you often want to continue drinking after your friends say theyāve had enough? Yes No
- Do you usually have a reason for the occasions when you drink heavily? Yes No
- When youāre sober, do you sometimes regret things you did or said while drinking? Yes No
- Have you tried switching brands or drinks, or following different plans to control your
drinking? Yes No - Have you sometimes failed to keep promises you made to yourself about controlling or
cutting down on your drinking? Yes No - Have you ever had a DWI (driving while intoxicated) or DUI (driving under the influence
of alcohol) violation, or any other legal problem related to your drinking? Yes No - Do you try to avoid family or close friends while you are drinking? Yes No
- Are you having more financial, work, school, and/or family problems as a result of
your drinking? Yes No - Has your physician ever advised you to cut down on your drinking? Yes No
- Do you eat very little or irregularly during the periods when you are drinking? Yes No
- Do you sometimes have the āshakesā in the morning and find that it helps to have a
ālittleā drink, tranquilizer or medication of some kind? Yes No - Have you recently noticed that you canāt drink as much as you used to? Yes No
- Do you sometimes stay drunk for several days at a time? Yes No
- After periods of drinking do you sometimes see or hear things that arenāt there? Yes No
- Have you ever gone to anyone for help about your drinking? Yes No;
- Do you ever feel depressed or anxious before, during or after periods of heavy drinking? Yes No
- Have any of your blood relatives ever had a problem with alcohol? Yes No
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Bookcat
Guest
One could of course add such things as knowingly becoming addicted to alcohol as being mortalā¦
the various possible kinds mortal sins that drinking too much can* lead* toā¦sexual and otherwiseā¦(as you noted).
Possible scandal that could be given say by parents or teachers etcā¦to the childrenā¦etc.
and there can be serious effects to drinking too much alcohol that ought to be consideredā¦
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migueltojose
Guest
Matthew 26
29 * I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.ā
Here, there and everywhereā¦ works for meā¦
Iāve always heard that one drink per hour can be metabolized. Sometimes Iāll drink a bottle of wine (once or twice a month) but it will take 5-6 hoursā¦ basically from dinner to bedtimeā¦
I used to drink a lot of beer but still at about that same pace of one per hour.
When I was younger, pacing at one per hour was tough especially early in the night. Sometimes I might have the first one in 45 minsā¦ maybe the second as well, depends on a lot of factorsā¦ who what where whenā¦ sometimes adrenaline kicks in on special occasions and you seem like you have a hollow legā¦ fortunately beer fills you up so itās easy to back offā¦
Iāve had a few drinks once or twice a week (usually Friday and Saturday nights) since I was about 14ā¦ by the time I got to college I was well seasoned. I saw a lot of nice good inexperienced kids flame out real fast. They couldnāt handle the freedom and temptation. I believe I was fairly responsible then and very responsible nowā¦ 40 plus yrs laterā¦
29 * I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.ā
Here, there and everywhereā¦ works for meā¦
Iāve always heard that one drink per hour can be metabolized. Sometimes Iāll drink a bottle of wine (once or twice a month) but it will take 5-6 hoursā¦ basically from dinner to bedtimeā¦
I used to drink a lot of beer but still at about that same pace of one per hour.
When I was younger, pacing at one per hour was tough especially early in the night. Sometimes I might have the first one in 45 minsā¦ maybe the second as well, depends on a lot of factorsā¦ who what where whenā¦ sometimes adrenaline kicks in on special occasions and you seem like you have a hollow legā¦ fortunately beer fills you up so itās easy to back offā¦
Iāve had a few drinks once or twice a week (usually Friday and Saturday nights) since I was about 14ā¦ by the time I got to college I was well seasoned. I saw a lot of nice good inexperienced kids flame out real fast. They couldnāt handle the freedom and temptation. I believe I was fairly responsible then and very responsible nowā¦ 40 plus yrs laterā¦
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catlady43
Guest
I am a recovering alcoholic in AA. I donāt think that the quantity one drinks determines alcoholism; I believe alcoholism is present when drinks are ācravedā, and the use of alcohol negatively affects any aspect of oneās life.
AA is a very spiritual way of life - I highly recommend it for anyone who thinks a problem with alcohol exists.
AA is a very spiritual way of life - I highly recommend it for anyone who thinks a problem with alcohol exists.
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