Alfie Evans has died

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i was just venting some steam…

read the post two above mine…
 
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There is some horrible judgement on here. Trust the bishop of Liverpool, who has jurisdiction over this diocese. In fact his opinion should carry more clout than the pope in this case as Liverpool is not, in fact, the pope’ s diocese. Backed up by the bishops of England and Wales he supported the hospital.

People need to realise that nothing immoral was done here and ordinary care was not withdrawn in order to hasten death. Nutrition is often turned on and off during palliative care, as Pup7 explained at length on the other thread.

Those people insulting the judge and doctors ought to be ashamed of themselves.
 
brian_custer said:
WHICH NATION IS BETTER: UK or USA?
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Well I blame another contributor for that. I certainly didn’t say British judges are better than American judges. What I took exception to was the ridiculous accusation that the judges involved (High Court of England and Wales, Court of Appeal of England and Wales, Supreme Court of the UK, and European Court of Human Rights) are “activist”. I was suggesting that that is a misconception based upon American assumptions about the nature of the judiciary. In the UK, Supreme Court justices rarely make the news. Appointments of justices are not a matter of interest among the general public. Most people probably could not name a single Supreme Court justice.

The US system clearly is markedly different. For example, President Obama had nominated Merrick Garland to the vacant position on the Supreme Court, but Republican senator Chuck Grassley didn’t schedule a confirmation hearing, meaning that his nomination expired. Meanwhile, Donald Trump, as a presidential candidate, had already indicated, as part of his election campaign, that Neil Gorsuch would be among judges whom he would consider nominating to the Supreme Court if elected. He even credited the Federalist Society and the Heritage Foundation with helping him to compose his list. In 2012 Michael Fragoso, now Deputy Assistant Attorney General, described a group of judges, including Gorsuch, appointed by George W. Bush as, “as good a college of judicial cardinals as the conservative and pro-life movements have ever seen”. I am not saying that the British system is better, just that it is different. This sort of thing simply would not happen in the UK. Changes of government do not affect judicial appointments; members of the two Houses of Parliament cannot obstruct judicial appointments; politicians do not include judicial appointments in their election manifestos; judges are not known to have affiliations such as conservative or liberal or pro-life of pro-choice. It is just a completely different system, and one in which accusing Supreme Court justices of being “activists” is very far wide of the mark.

It was another poster who began to introduce ridiculous suggestions such as England not being a free society and the European Allies being unable to defeat Nazi Germany had America not entered the war. By the way, surely some credit must be given for the fact that it was Neville Chamberlain, not FDR, who issued an ultimatum with regard to withdrawal of German forces from Poland and who consequently declared war on Germany on behalf of Britain and France (with Australia and New Zealand declaring war on the same day). And one could equally argue for the decisive role of the Soviet Union in defeating Germany and its allies. It’s grossly simplistic and not very productive when Americans try to win an argument by saying, “We had to bail you out of the Second World War.” One has to consider the origins and conduct of the whole war, and to do otherwise is frankly to discredit the memory of the dead of the British Empire, France, Poland, the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, China, and all of our other allies.
 
Useless platitude. Children belong to their parents in this world.
 
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Well the worst part of it, in my opinion, apart from the general tone, was the specific recommendation that senior members of the British and European judiciary should be put to death by hanging. The idea that judges could be killed for making unpopular judgements attacks the very foundations of a society established upon the rule of law.
 
paperwight said:
I really don’t know why the facts aren’t getting through to people. .

Let me spell it out again.
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Wow… you are being extremely condescending. And coming off as extremely nasty and bitter.

You are not the gate keeper of “The facts.” However, since you are so keen on dispensing those “facts”, how about you take the time and do a little bit of reaearch and see that there have been extraordinary cases when brain damage has been reversed.


https://www.discoverylife.com/tv-shows/the-boy-with-no-brain/videos/the-boy-with-no-brain-update
 
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ShrodingersCat said:
There is some horrible judgement on here. Trust the bishop of Liverpool, who has jurisdiction over this diocese. In fact his opinion should carry more clout than the pope in this case as Liverpool is not, in fact, the pope’ s diocese. Backed up by the bishops of England and Wales he supported the hospital.
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He answers to the Pope. For some perspective, the USCCB has sided with Alfie’s family. US Bishops Tweet Support for Alfie Evans - ZENIT - English
 
With all due respect, the pope has given jurisdiction of Liverpool to the bishop. He indeed answers to the pope, but the pope is not in charge of managing the diocese. The UK bishops know what is really going on in their country.

The parents request to seek new forms of treatment would have been granted if any existed. In fact they would not have needed to request it. Even the Italian doctors admitted he was untreatable once they were able to examine him. Moving him would have worsened his condition for no reason. So in effect the pope and US bishops’ prayers were answered: the answer was, sadly, that there were no alternative treatments to consider. It’s tragic but it happens daily all over the world.
 
I just don’t understand what you are trying to achieve here. What’s the point? Little Alfie is already died, and you and your buddies are still making pointless and empty arguments. Can you at last be respectful to little Alfie and his family?
 
Unnecessary personal attack. I am not being disrespectful, unlike people calling for the judge’s blood. I am pointing out that ethically nothing was done contrary to Catholic bioethics. If people want to disagree with what happened, that is their prerogative, but they don’t have the moral high ground.
 
I believe what is being discussed isn’t an issue of jurisdiction but of faith principle. And the Pope has the true authority in that regard if my understanding is correct.
In terms of the situation I’m not seeing how the state in this circumstance has a moral authority over the parents. Nor the care providers. It’s hard as I don’t know a lot about the case but all perspectives ive heard have been either opinionated or partisan thus far. From personal experience many physicians are well intentioned, some are not. And many in the medical profession are highly opionated, and extremely confident in those opinions. Many are also humble. I’ve struggled with this as someone who was looking into trying to be a physician myself, but struggled, partly because I wouldn’t compromise on certain ethical issues. That certainly wasn’t the only issue. However I would not be comfortable letting many of the physicians make decisions for me.
 
To clarify the care providers also, in my view, don’t have a moral authority over the parents.
 
Perhaps more ink should be spilled about the cause of Alfie’s disease. We really need to understand mitochondrial problems better. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t know where to begin. Perhaps we are all missing the real point; this may not be an ethical question, but rather a medical research problem. Do we have enough scientists and are we treating them in a way that could foster a new development here?
 
If you really are respectfully, you should say nothing disrespectful about Alfie or his parents at this tragic moment. However, look what you said,“It’s tragic but it happens daily all over the world.” Those words are both false and disrespectful.
 
May his soul rest in peace, and I hope that he finds comfort with the Lord. :pray:t2:
 
This story, like the Charlie Gard story last year, is really more about grief management rather than patient management.
 
That is true though. While Alfie was in the hospital there were probably other parents who had to switch off their child’s life support in that very hospital and had to walk out past a crowd of angry people that didn’t care because the media didn’t cover it. I fully respect Alfie’s parents: they displayed great love for their child. But they were taken advantage of and given false hope by people with an agenda.
 
Who has an agenda now? Please be reasonable and respectful! And stop using hypothesis and conspiracy theories!
 
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