Alfie Evans has died

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Every time this is news, the Western left and its cadre of excuse-makers sink down to defend government-run health care. It’s all they care about.

And why should anyone be surprised given much of their soft to sympathetic stance on abortion?
Pup7 said:
It is EXACTLY the same thing - it is the court making decisions in place of parents. And after all, parents are always correct, right?
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Take a look at some alimony cases and get back to us on that. The courts do a terrible job of protecting children, especially since they uphold abortion.

Also, having a hospital board in the USA make the same call as the government in the UK is not the same thing.

@ConfusedLucy @TheLittleLady

I’m curious: if you call it like you see it, is it okay for people to note the crimes of refugees, most notably rape?

Furthermore, the UK can screw around with garbage like this because the USA pays its defense bill. And to be clear on that, what I mean is the USA nuclear navy and NORAD go a long way keeping Russia, ISIS and China off the European mainland.
 
You seem to have a lot of anger SuperLuigi. Implying people are pro-choice on here is rather uncharitable. Why do you feel the need to insist that the US is so much better than Europe and that people who disagree with you are socialists? It’s different in the US and I’m glad you prefer it since you live there. But every country has it’s flaws. Even right wingers across Europe support government run healthcare: we have a different culture. It’s nothing to get upset about.
 
Strawman arguments.

Don’t confuse blunt honesty with anger.
ShrodingersCat said:
Even right wingers across Europe support government run healthcare: we have a different culture. It’s nothing to get upset about.
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You can claim to be different all you like. Fact is universal health care = epic failure. Your governments are too corrupt and selfish to able to handle such things.
 
If a refugee has raped someone then I see nothing wrong with stating that a refugee has raped someone.
 
_Ruby said:
What counts as harm?

Every testimony from the doctors asserted that whilst it was unlikely Alfie felt pain, it couldn’t be ruled out.

The other ‘treatment or care’ was more palliative care. Except since it was being offered in Italy and required transit, it ran the risk of constant seizure on route, more brain damage and most importantly, possibly be painful to him.

I would assert inflicting pain on a dying, 22 month old child, is harming him.
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However, you are neither his parent nor a doctor.
 
SuperLuigi said:
I’m curious: if you call it like you see it, is it okay for people to note the crimes of refugees, most notably rape?
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Sort of scratching my head at this non sequitur, I do not understand what point you are trying to make.

People commit both crimes and sins, it is part of our fallen world. It is our duty as Christians to provide consolation to the victims of crimes - to comfort the afflicted - and to work to ensure the dignity of every person, to welcome the stranger, and even someone tagged as a “refugee” deserves to be protected from crime and exploitation. If a displaced person “refugee” commits a crime, they are subject to the just laws and should be arrested and given a fair trial. The prison system should work to rehabilitate those convicted of crimes.
 
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TheLittleLady said:
someone tagged as a “refugee” deserves to be protected from crime and exploitation.
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Except people aren’t interested in that part. I keep posting examples of that over and over and over and all people can think about is how to get more illegal immigrants and refugees into Western countries so they can feel good inside and smile at them across the street and declare that as a “friendship”.
TheLittleLady said:
People commit both crimes and sins, it is part of our fallen world. It is our duty as Christians to provide consolation to the victims of crimes - to comfort the afflicted -
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It’s also our job to make sure it doesn’t happen.
TheLittleLady said:
rape?

Sort of scratching my head at this non sequitur,
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I would be too, considering it’s not a non sequitur.
 
Kaninchen said:
This story, like the Charlie Gard story last year, is really more about grief management rather than patient management.
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And here I thought the Western left cared about hurt feelings. But I guess Alfie and his family have to be Syrian refugees to get that kind of sympathy, huh?
 
Why are you trying to turn this thread into some “anti refugee” spiel?

It is not a zero sum game, we can love sick children AND people who come from other countries.
 
I’m not. People are calling Alfie’s Army names (hardly an action of love) and I’m just assessing if there is a double standard.

I think we know what would happen if someone had said that about Alan Kurdi sympathizers…
 
Did young Alan’s sympathizers disrupt the functioning of a children’s hospital or similar faciity? I believe he was unfortunately already deceased before anyone in the West knew his name, but I am seeing a lot about strongly written opinion pieces and nothing about street protests.

I don’t think anyone minds that Alfie’s Army kept up a prayer vigil for the child or shared information about his circumstances. The complaints are about the people who conducted themselves poorly on the site or spread erroneous ideas of the situation in their passion and ignorance
 
Children are under the authority of their parents, who generally make decisions on their behalf, yes. Calling them “property” is grotesque, though.

Because a child is a human being and not a possession, there are limits to the decisions parents may make for them, and as we have yet to devise another way of settling such matters, some arm of the state will step in when there is reason to believe those limits were exceeded.
 
SuperLuigi said:
Alan Kurdi sympathizers
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Ridiculous comparison. Alfie’s Army protesters at the hospital in Liverpool were taking actions that harassed hospital staff and made the hospital a more difficult place to be for other patients and their families, some of whom were quite probably going through very similar situations, albeit without the same public interest. I am not aware of any Alan Kurdi sympathisers doing things that actually hindered the ability of other refugees to obtain help. And remember that this is not about Alfie or his parents, this is about a group of people who chose to identify as their supporters. Don’t forget either that Alfie’s parents eventually ended up distancing themselves from the protesters.

Unfortunately, there will always be people who decide to get involved in something that isn’t really about them, and they can often cause more harm than good on all sides. The same thing happened over Charlie Gard. I remember meeting a man who was an ambassador for Great Ormond Street Hospital who told me that he’d been physically attacked in the street near the hospital by somebody who recognised the hospital’s branding on his clothing. The person who attacked him apparently thought that this would somehow help Charlie to survive. There’s the same mentality with people who commit vigilante attacks against alleged paedophiles. They claim that they’re doing it to protect children and to support victims, but they’re not, and they carry on regardless of the fact that they have been told that their actions are actually detrimental.
 
Is it possible we could all agree to the following?
  1. If the hospital and/or the courts at any point intended that ordinary means of care (nutrition and/or hydration) be withdrawn while Alfie could still tolerate them in order to bring about his death from their absence, that would be a moral wrong and incompatible with Catholic teaching.
  2. if, on the other hand, Alfie’s physicians honestly believed him to be on the verge of death from his underlying condition, then withdrawing nutrition and hydration for what they believed would be his final hours (and nowhere near long enough to bring about death) would not be any indication of homicidal intent.
  3. If Alfie could safely have been transferred to the Italian hospital, even if only for palliative care, on the grounds that the trust relationship between his parents and his care team in England had broken down, he should not have been prevented from going.
  4. On the other hand, if Alfie could not safely have made the trip, then his current care team was right not to release him and his parents (unintentionally) would have been jeopardizing Alfie’s chances by insisting on it.
  5. If Alfie died from the progression of his unidentified condition, then no one killed (much less murdered) him. If he died from substandard care, that is another matter.
 
Um, saying that the issue is one of grief management is caring about the parents’ feelings.
 
Al Kresta of Ave Maria Radio has a US medical expert talking about this case on the radio right now. Very interesting!
 
From his place in our Father’s Home may Alfie pray for his mum and dad and for all his loved ones .

May he pray for all effected by his death .

May he pray for wisdom for all , especially for those who may be using his death for ulterior motives , for those who may be using his death as a political football .

Little Alfie pray for us .
 
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